Do Atheists believe in Eternity?

a reply to: pthena

There must have been a beginning of the universe itself. So no, the universe is not eternal it will eventually end at some point in the future.

Think about this, before the universe 'time' didn't exist. And one day that 'time' will end.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Sookiechacha

I like that a lot. The first two paragraphs are worthy of recital as a creed.

If culture did not include the concept of an eternal God, would you think of eternity at all as something to believe in or not?

I don't think so. You can't have a tangible concept of eternity and everlasting life without at a supreme being that's overcome impending death and destruction.

The word Eternal is a little misunderstood

It doesn't mean infinite or absolute. It means "Existing outside the bounds of perspective"

Compare:

Internal(ly)
External(ly)
Eternal(Etern(ity)

We exist within a Universe which grows in complexity (what people would conventionally say "expands", due to how it appears from our internal perspective) at a rate which is beyond the limitations of our physical body to represent

Our bodies are pulled into alignment from birth as we grow. This is aging. Till we reach a point where we begin to decay as we can no longer adequately compensate for the "expansion" that is time, through us and around us

Our lifetime is subject to forces within, from birth to death, where we are physically unable to perceive the overwhelming scale of the comparable universal lifetime

The perspective of the age of the Universe and the world around us, from the limitation of us being born, and dying, within something so great it was around before we arrived and will be around long after we are gone, is what "Eternal" means

"Beyond, or exceeding, the ability to perceive, from within a comparatively limited system. Neither Internal, nor External

By this, the conventional understanding of "God" could very well be defined as being Eternal, but not in the sense that most people think it to be

Likewise, being offered/given "Eternal life", doesn't mean you will live forever, It means something outside of what you understand life to be

"Forever" is another misunderstood concept

Perspective needs exist within a finite system, or its true nature cannot be understood

What seems Absolute, Infinite, Eternal or Forever, should only ever be viewed as seemingly boundless or endless, not literally or actually so. Because to think in boundless or endless terms, is to (ironically) limit yourself and your minds capability

a reply to: pthena

Belief is all there is.

Everyone believes in something.

a reply to: pthena

I was just yanking your elysium chain.

To answer your question I don't believe in an eternity but it could be nice if you were able to somehow stave off the madness that would bring.

Our consciousness isn't built to last imo.

a reply to: pthena

Can’t say mine has developed or I ponder those ideas anymore.
Endless is just to big

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: pthena

There must have been a beginning of the universe itself. So no, the universe is not eternal it will eventually end at some point in the future.

Think about this, before the universe 'time' didn't exist. And one day that 'time' will end.

And what logic or science do you base “that” on
And why didn’t time exist, surely there was something

a reply to: pthena

Deep space nine was full of veiled references to religion and history, such a fantastic show, a quote I use regularly came from it, though it's a wonderfully playful take on a Shakespeare line, another recurring theme in star trek.

"Great men do not seek power, they have power thrust upon them."
~Kah'less the Unforgettable (klingon jesus)

Although I stepped away from religion and spirituality in my youth, I've always been fascinated by how stories get recycled and retold, but so much of the narrative stays the same between the faiths. At their core, most of them seem to have a sentiment that was best summed up by Bill and Ted, "Be excellent to each other, and party on dudes!", but as the layers of faith, superstition and dogma build up they tend to become monsters of our own design.

I agree with you, a static unchanging eternity doesn't make sense. Change is the only constant, and that rate of change is what we tend to call "time".

a reply to: Raggedyman

Logic perhaps. Physics?

Do you know of anything in the observable universe and in this reality that lives or exists for eternity?

Depends on the Atheist, some couldn't care if it was while others would use science an theories, stating that the universe will just fizzle out, all while Black Holes are said to out live.

Thing is, saying a pit of eternal darkness that light couldn't escape is eternal an all consuming. While saying thousand year old doctrine isn't forever, an even the Light of the World couldn't escape the Everlasting Serpents maws, while no long being the center of the cosmos is a bit Satanic, mind you(just pulling a leg).

As for religions and the afterlife, Judaism is said to have no belief about an after life what so ever.

I am sure atheists can believe anything they want.

Unlike Christians however...

a reply to: strongfp

Think about this, before the universe 'time' didn't exist. And one day that 'time' will end.

I haven't quite internalized the fact that time is not a constant.

Intuitively, I'm quite comfortable with considering time and motion as functions of one another; time is measured by motion. The acceleration of gravity can be considered as a constant, but only as related to distances near to the Earth's surface. The further out, the greater the difference becomes.

If I understand it correctly, time behaves like gravity. I've got no way of even thinking about how time and gravity would interact in interstellar space at near light speed. I doubt that any human ever will conduct such an experiment.

Stars go through phases and become red giants. Sol will too. The Earth will be enveloped in the corona. Terran life will have ended some time before that.

In the mean time we live on Earth where acceleration of gravity and time can be considered as if they were constants for all practical purposes.

a reply to: Specimen88

As for religions and the afterlife, Judaism is said to have no belief about an after life what so ever.

Said by some.

I better get all my disclaimers out of the way before getting into the critique of Judaism.

I happen to be a U.S. citizen, naturally born. Ordinarily, there would be no need for me to look into Judaism. Other people's religions can be accepted or not. But, since there are political pundits who push the proposition that the U.S. is founded upon Judeo-Christian principles, I am compelled by patriotic duty to enquire about Judaism even though it is none my business.

An outsider's observations:

Judaism is actually fragmented on the theological spectrum much more than Christianity appears to be. By which I mean polytheist, monotheist, and atheist Jews are all still recognized to be Jews by the religious authorities; Rabbis and such. The commonality which binds them together is tribalistic, even though they aren't specifically a tribe.

If I were to attempt to formulate a creed which embraces the full theological spectrum from full on polytheist thru to atheist it would be something like:

I am a Jew, more special than you.

Some Jews may dispute this. That is fine by me. I encourage it, in fact.

On the other hand, there are people who aren't Jews who are encouraged to accept that creed, thus putting themselves in a subordinate position. An example would be Gentile Noahides.

A rejection of the creed is not a hateful thing, it is a recognition that humans are humans. Specialness (what ever that may be ) is something else.

As an ethnic Christian, you know, like my parents were Christian, Grandparents, Great-grandparents, I can claim all the rights and benefits of Christianity even though I don't go to church, pray to the Christian God, or anything else.

That, of course, is absurd.

I live in a certain cultural milieu. I didn't choose it, but there it is. My freedoms are quite limited, no matter what flag I wave or how much spit flies out of my mouth as I scream "FREEDOM!!!".

---------
Sorry about that. I wandered into politics.

a reply to: pthena

Are you suggesting that the theory of relatively is a measurement of time as a whole?

When I mentioned time, I did not mean the concept in which we can calculate or measure. I meant as in the beginning of the universe would be the beginning of the human concept of time or even the beginning of eternal time.

Unless you believe that eternity has no starting point?

Time is our observation of energy in motion. Now God is the source of all energy. He is of course not of this universe and thus not constrained by the laws of our universe, which he himself put into place so we can exist. And as all energy from this universe comes from the limitless supernatural energy from God time has always existed. Thus eternity.

God is called the "King of eternity:"

"Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."-1 Timothy 1:17.


God is eternal. From eternity to eternity. He can never die.


"Before the mountains were born
Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land,
From everlasting to everlasting, you are God."
-Psalm 90:2.


"Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die."-Habakkuk 1:12.

Now can we understand time the way God does? I doubt we ever will be able to. He has put constraints on our comprehension. So while we can comprehend the concept of eternity, we cannot fully grasp its full scope or understand how God is eternal. That he is is a simple deduction even without reading it in his inspired word the Bible. The fact that we exist attests to the fact that he always has been. For if there was a time he did not exist then nothing ever would have existed.

a reply to: strongfp

Are you suggesting that the theory of relatively is a measurement of time as a whole?

No.

Unless you believe that eternity has no starting point?

The concept of eternity does not fit in my belief system. As far as I am concerned, time began when motion began, eg. Big Bang.

Of course, any measurements that Earth scientists make which indicates a Universe which is expanding at an accelerating rate are taken from the relative perspective of an outbound Earth, not from the center of the Universe.

I wonder what the center of the Universe may look like: a donut hole or some timeless core of [whatever], since there would be no outward motion, hence no time. I should look it up.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

You cannot point me in any direction towards a god let alone the abrahamic God, at all. So how can I even begin to disprove what you're suggesting?

Do you see the predicament we are in now?

originally posted by: willzilla
There are two things that we cannot fathom. Eternity, and nothing.

I can honestly fathom it.

Funny you mentioned it because I was thinking about starting a thread that had that concept as part of the subject material.

Now before you dismiss me, I am Aspergers, aka Higher Functioning Autism, and I have a very hyper active mind and imagination. I am sane, because I have literally been tested, but I am mentally wired different to most people.
But I can indeed imagine and fathom infinity/eternity and complete and utter oblivion. Wish I couldn't, as oblivion thing is absolutely terrifying to be able to grasp. Can quite literally keep me awake at nights.
I'd say I was 8 years old when I first stared into the 'abyss' and I've never slept right since.

Can quite literally imagine and fathom anything described to me. Paint quite a vivid mental picture whether I want to or not. I have no control of it unfortunately and not helped being coupled with a mostly eidetic memory, especially when hearing something very very disturbing.
Don't even need external input, my brain comes up with some crazy stuff on it's own.

Cannot look at anything without my brain trying to cross section it down to the last atom. It's like a mental blender up there. Billion things going at once that I've found only other Aspies have ever been able to relate to and understand.
I call it the god's eye, lol. Can basically see all of existence and possible realities at once 24/7 is the best way to describe it. I'm used to it, it's all I have ever known. I really should make a post about that one day.

But yeah, I can fathom things it seems the average 'neuro-typical' cannot, and that is possibly a good thing, because I think it would drive the average person insane to view existence as I do and see the things I see. Oblivion fills me with dread that I can not even begin to describe. And I am a man of science, or try to be. I have no religious inclinations to comfort me. I am agnostic, but think everything has a scientific explanation behind it even if we do not know it. But I can see god's being a possibility, the same as I can see the opposite also being true.

But yes, I am possibly too sane, to unflitered from the world and the psychologists I have spoken to to the best of their abilities believe I am genuinely capable of doing as I claim. Alas the problem is I cannot let people see inside my mind to 100% prove it. Only I shall ever truly know what I know. It's the one area where proof will always be impossible.

If you cannot fathom concepts like eternity and nothing then I'm quite honestly envious of you.

a reply to: AtomicKangaroo

In my previous post I wrote:

I wonder what the center of the Universe may look like: a donut hole or some timeless core of [whatever], since there would be no outward motion, hence no time. I should look it up.

After reading what three different Astrophysicists had to say, it seems that there is no center of the Universe. Any location from which trajectories are reverse tracked, leads back to where the calculations are being made. Since the Astrophysicists did this from Earth, then Earth would seem to be the center. But not so.

The last article I read was Ask Ethan: Where Is The Center of the Universe?

We don't know what the actual size of the entire Universe is; we only have a lower limit that it must now be at least 46.1 billion light-years in radius in all directions from our perspective.

We don't know what the shape of the fabric of space is, and whether it's positively curved like a sphere, negatively curved like a saddle, or perfectly flat, like a sheet or a cylinder. We don't know whether it curves back on itself or whether it goes on forever. All that we know is based on all we can observe. From that information, we can conclude that it's consistent with being infinite in size, it's consistent with perfect flatness, but information to the contrary may lie in the next significant digit of data or just beyond our observable cosmic horizon. It's vital that we keep looking.

Can you visualize an infinite Universe? If infinity is possible, then can eternity be possible? The two seem to be related in my thinking, both being limitless.

If something is infinite in size, how does it expand? Can infinity be added to?

a reply to: pthena

Some people take God as a priori existing, then place Him outside of time, thus establishing the extemporal, which they refer to as eternity.

The unexamined assumption is that time actually exists.

Are you in time? Do you move through time?

You state that you do not see or feel eternity.......do you see or feel time?

Time is just a thought that occurs......
Where is time now?

Now is eternity......all appears and disappears now.

"Eternity Is Ever-Present Now"