The pyramid and other structures how they worked

originally posted by: zatara

originally posted by: Randyvine
a reply to: anonentity

People ask the wrong question when they ask who BUILT the
great pyramid. The first question to ask is who DESIGNED the
great pyramid. The designer and the builders can be an eternity
apart from each other with only the design in common. Built by
man of course but designed, by who? I don't think it was aliens.

Excellent thread soon all will be revealed.

The question I have is...how long will it take for a civilliasation to figure out the properties of granite, limestone and all the others. And then to apply them in a way which will benefit the people in some way...And then to be so sure of the mechanics and benefits that it outweigh the labour to built these enormes structures. With other words..the knowledge must have been present a long time before the pyramids were built.

And I am not even mentioning the knowledge of cutting and transporting these stones...

About as long as it takes for an average course in geology (the short way... the longer way is to become a rockhound and start collecting and cutting and polishing rocks)--and some courses in physics and electronics.

Seriously. We could do the pyramids a lot faster and a LOT better (with more or less interior space, as desired) with much better join and polish on the stones. All it would take is one of our wealthiest people in the world to decide to build one and we could have one even larger than Khufu's and in under 20 years.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

They had batteries, and there are a few examples of plating. One of the cells produce about a volt .

originally posted by: Byrd

When you see pictures in Egyptology that kind of look like they might be a giant light bulb, and then see how a lightbulb can draw energy from one of these systems just by touching the ground, then all the large underground complexes that have been found in Egypt start to make sense from a practical, rather than ritualistic, perspective.

And then when you read the writing around that scene (which is actually possible... you CAN teach yourself to read hieroglyphs) and realize that they're not talking about electricity or light bulbs or lighting things, then you have an entirely different perspective on things.

en.wikipedia.org...

I think you're giving the Egyptians a little too much credit. You're assuming they knew what the image was.

The image appears in multiple reliefs, faithfully copied.

If someone prior to them created this power system, and used it to power light bulbs, then whatever images they left behind would be interpreted in a way that made sense to whoever found them.




What makes finds like this:

www.nbcnews.com...

And this :

amazeingart.com...

into OOparts is that there is no practical way people in that era could have made practical use of a such a large network of caves.

They could build them for magical make believe purposes, of course. But there are an awful lot of them, reaching considerable distances. And nobody would see them, so there's no vanity project to be had here.


It fits if they had light.

But torches would be impractical. There is simply too much real estate down there. You'd be hauling firewood all day long.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Byrd

When you see pictures in Egyptology that kind of look like they might be a giant light bulb, and then see how a lightbulb can draw energy from one of these systems just by touching the ground, then all the large underground complexes that have been found in Egypt start to make sense from a practical, rather than ritualistic, perspective.

And then when you read the writing around that scene (which is actually possible... you CAN teach yourself to read hieroglyphs) and realize that they're not talking about electricity or light bulbs or lighting things, then you have an entirely different perspective on things.

...

If someone prior to them created this power system, and used it to power light bulbs, then whatever images they left behind would be interpreted in a way that made sense to whoever found them.
...

So where were the factories that made the light-bulbs? Were they made of glass? Where did they get the glass?

Where was the power source for the bulbs? Were there cables to transport the power? If so, how did they make the cables?

Where were the factories that made the wiring? Where did they get the rubber for the wires?

Etc. etc. etc.

originally posted by: anonentity
They had batteries, and there are a few examples of plating. One of the cells produce about a volt.

The "Baghdad Batteries" are scroll jars that developed leaks and allowed the scrolls inside to completely disintegrate, leaving behind the copper rod they were rolled around.

a reply to: Hookeny

Any advanced society would know that the "Technosphere" must not interact with the 'Biosphere"

originally posted by: Hooke

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Byrd

When you see pictures in Egyptology that kind of look like they might be a giant light bulb, and then see how a lightbulb can draw energy from one of these systems just by touching the ground, then all the large underground complexes that have been found in Egypt start to make sense from a practical, rather than ritualistic, perspective.

And then when you read the writing around that scene (which is actually possible... you CAN teach yourself to read hieroglyphs) and realize that they're not talking about electricity or light bulbs or lighting things, then you have an entirely different perspective on things.

...

If someone prior to them created this power system, and used it to power light bulbs, then whatever images they left behind would be interpreted in a way that made sense to whoever found them.
...

So where were the factories that made the light-bulbs?

You can make a light bulb by hand.

Were they made of glass? Where did they get the glass?

They could possibly have found some here:

en.wikipedia.org...

But doesn't really matter. You don't need it.

There is no requirement for a light bulb to contain glass. But the Hieroglyphic images suggest that they might have. Or that some other kind of semi-transparent material is being used.

Understand, though, that about a quarter of all the materials in the world are semitransparent at some luminosity. Even human skin is. You can shine a bright light underneath your hand, and you'll see the glow emanating through from the other side.

Where was the power source for the bulbs? Were there cables to transport the power? If so, how did they make the cables?

Where were the factories that made the wiring? Where did they get the rubber for the wires?

Etc. etc. etc.

The OP video is discussing a Nicola Tesla style wireless transmission system using high voltages.



However, you're asking the wrong question. The glass isn't what is important.

For a Thomas Edision style lightbulb what you need is a metal (or other conductive material) that can withstand high temperatures without melting.

Have you ever turned on an electric stove, and noticed that the coil turned red? You know: from the heat? All an Edison light bulb is doing is just that, except on steroids. The coil is so hot that instead of giving of a red glow, it's glowing bright white. But it's the same process. Tungsten was chosen as the material because it is so heat resistant that even when it's that hot, it still won't melt.

Graphite will also work:

blog.stemscouts.org...

I'm sorry. I get really technical sometimes if I get going.

The reason I'm open to believe in ancient technology is because most modern technologies, if you know how they work, are not as complicated as they seem.


Also when you know how they work, you know that there is a wide variety of ways you can achieve the same effect.

I'm often curious what direction technology would have taken if a different culture had been the one to approach it, and/or if certain discoveries had happened in a different chronological order.


Light bulbs, as we know them, are the result of having discovered industrialization prior to useful application of electricity. (Electricity as a phenomenon goes back much further, but only the late part of the 19th century do we see sensible applications start popping up.)

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: anonentity

I posted this years ago, but it bears repeating:

Perhaps someone just found a cool way to stack rocks?

With such precision that a butter knife cannot be wedged between the blocks? With apparent mathematical calculations involved in the construction? With no technology at all to move and precisely place every stone, other than human power? To be aligned with stellar constellations including stars that could not have possibly been known by the Egyptians?

Why are you inclined to overstatement regarding the Egyptians?
They aren't mysterious enough so you feel the need to invent a bunch of crap?

Harte

a butter knife cannot be wedged between the blocks?

You're right. He should have said a piece of paper can't be wedged between the blocks.

Howdy Harte and others - just a short stop here at ATS to do search on a different subject and saw this boring old subject again.

Here is some evidence for you guys.

Pyramid, cladding stone, close ups.







...any yes in many many places you CAN get paper in-between the joints - I have done so on Khafre and Menkaure, etc.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

originally posted by: Byrd

When you see pictures in Egyptology that kind of look like they might be a giant light bulb, and then see how a lightbulb can draw energy from one of these systems just by touching the ground, then all the large underground complexes that have been found in Egypt start to make sense from a practical, rather than ritualistic, perspective.

And then when you read the writing around that scene (which is actually possible... you CAN teach yourself to read hieroglyphs) and realize that they're not talking about electricity or light bulbs or lighting things, then you have an entirely different perspective on things.

en.wikipedia.org...

I think you're giving the Egyptians a little too much credit. You're assuming they knew what the image was.

I don't mean to sound insulting but did you read the text in the link you copied?

The image is only late (late) Egyptian history...around the time of Cleopatra and not much earlier. It's the Hellenized version of the Egyptian deity, Harsomtus (Yet Another Version of Horus) There's nothing about bringing light or shedding light or power (and they did have words for that) in the descriptions.

If someone prior to them created this power system, and used it to power light bulbs, then whatever images they left behind would be interpreted in a way that made sense to whoever found them.

They don't make lightbulbs out of solid gold (that's what the texts say... and by the way, these are inventory scenes in a storeroom. There are other objects (and more scenes on these walls) consistent with inventories of festival equipment in these rooms.

Secondly, if "someone prior to them created this power system", the whole world would have stolen it (they were stealing technology from each other during the time of the Ptolemys) or borrowed it from whomever. We'd have a lot of documentation and fragments of this technology everywhere (a good example of this is the recurve bow; a world-changing technology that was acquired by practically everyone after it was first created around 2000 BC.

What makes finds like this:

www.nbcnews.com...

Read the associated texts carefully. This is a promotional piece by Andrew Collins done in 2009 and not actually a "discovery" (we've known about the caves at Giza... it's a limestone plateau and riddled with caves.) Here's a 1978 Egyptology journal about the Tura limestone caves This mentions that the "caves" are actually part of a quarry and talks about finding a large slab still on wooden rollers with the quarry mark in lampblack on it at the very back of the quarry.

Collins, as usual, doesn't research carefully.

And this :

amazeingart.com...

That's kind of a minor thing. If they wanted a REALLY impressive maze, they should have picked the system of rooms under Djoser's pyramid (built before Giza) which is about 2 kilometers of underground hallways and rooms... built around 1,000 years before Amenenhat III

into OOparts is that there is no practical way people in that era could have made practical use of a such a large network of caves.

Whereas if you look at Djoser's pyramid and other similar tombs with underground structures, they were places for tomb treasure and offerings. Grain from some of the offerings was found in the underground areas of Djoser's pyramids.

They could build them for magical make believe purposes, of course. But there are an awful lot of them, reaching considerable distances. And nobody would see them, so there's no vanity project to be had here.

They're associated with offering sites for the dead.

It fits if they had light.

But torches would be impractical. There is simply too much real estate down there. You'd be hauling firewood all day long.

They're also rather impractical to wander around in or use. Why trot out to the middle of a cemetery (and note that the Egyptians did NOT like wandering around in the dark... that's when the demons came out) to hold a meeting when they could simply use one of the large convenient temples right there in a major city? There were areas of the temples that were secured and where nobody but the king and the high priest of that area could enter.

Less danger of being eaten by demons (the belief was that packs of demons roamed the dark. (see this paper for a syllabus about demons in Ancient Egypt )

Also... they didn't have clear glass back then. Nobody had clear glass until around 100 AD (en.wikipedia.org...)

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
I'm sorry. I get really technical sometimes if I get going.

The reason I'm open to believe in ancient technology is because most modern technologies, if you know how they work, are not as complicated as they seem.


Also when you know how they work, you know that there is a wide variety of ways you can achieve the same effect.

I'm often curious what direction technology would have taken if a different culture had been the one to approach it, and/or if certain discoveries had happened in a different chronological order.


Light bulbs, as we know them, are the result of having discovered industrialization prior to useful application of electricity. (Electricity as a phenomenon goes back much further, but only the late part of the 19th century do we see sensible applications start popping up.)

As you probably know (I suspect you may be a fan of the old series "Connections"), it takes a lot of steps for something as simple as a light bulb, including the discovery of clear glass... which needed certain materials (since you can't make a clear glass out of sand alone)

I really think the "Connections" series needs to be shown again. Frequently.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: anonentity

I posted this years ago, but it bears repeating:

Perhaps someone just found a cool way to stack rocks?

With such precision that a butter knife cannot be wedged between the blocks? With apparent mathematical calculations involved in the construction? With no technology at all to move and precisely place every stone, other than human power? To be aligned with stellar constellations including stars that could not have possibly been known by the Egyptians?

Why are you inclined to overstatement regarding the Egyptians?
They aren't mysterious enough so you feel the need to invent a bunch of crap?

Harte

a butter knife cannot be wedged between the blocks?

You're right. He should have said a piece of paper can't be wedged between the blocks.

Howdy Harte and others - just a short stop here at ATS to do search on a different subject and saw this boring old subject again.

Here is some evidence for you guys.

Pyramid, cladding stone, close ups.







...any yes in many many places you CAN get paper in-between the joints - I have done so on Khafre and Menkaure, etc.

Good to see your name pop up again Mr. Hanslune.

You're right, and after some millennia I'm not surprised, but there are also many places you can't.

a reply to: Byrd

Yes that was a great series, I remember the one where the gunpowder from china was used in bells and the bells became cannons. Then it suddenly struck me how was it possible to make gunpowder, suddenly a guy gets up one morning and thinks to himself, "I need Nitrate crystals" Or does he read a book. Just like Tuts dagger made from meteorite sure, but if you haven't high-speed steel to weld into it you will just make ever-diminishing sparks on the anvil.

originally posted by: Byrd

It fits if they had light.

But torches would be impractical. There is simply too much real estate down there. You'd be hauling firewood all day long.

They're also rather impractical to wander around in or use. Why trot out to the middle of a cemetery (and note that the Egyptians did NOT like wandering around in the dark... that's when the demons came out) to hold a meeting when they could simply use one of the large convenient temples right there in a major city? There were areas of the temples that were secured and where nobody but the king and the high priest of that area could enter.

Less danger of being eaten by demons (the belief was that packs of demons roamed the dark. (see this paper for a syllabus about demons in Ancient Egypt )

Also... they didn't have clear glass back then. Nobody had clear glass until around 100 AD (en.wikipedia.org...)

If they were made during the ice age?

Then they would have lived there for the same reason why cave men lived in caves (despite being fully capable of building shelters similar to more modern hunter gatherers that didn't live in caves.)

The megafauna can't get in.

But the Younger Dryas created a huge disconnect and the AE had no way of knowing the details of it. They see records of people doing stuff underground, and they figures it must be stories about death and afterlife. (Because it would be unthinkable for them to prefer to live underground while you're still alive.)



Gotta remember they didn't think of themselves as being located in 3500 BC. They thought of themselves as being located in the present, latest era. (Because, at the time, they were !!!)

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

If they were made during the ice age?

I don't think you understand how difficult it is to get down there and how little space there is. I've been inside the Great Pyramid and inside the Red Pyramid.

In order to get down there, you have to walk down a fairly slippery slope (they put boards as "treads" across it and have handrails now), 300 feet long and so small that you have to walk bent over. Once you're down there, you end up in a series of fairly small-ish rooms -- 15 feet by 15 feet -- around the size of my living room.

So there's room for 6 people to sleep (more if you're literally on top of each other) but no place to cook, put your fire, or go to the bathroom.

If you want a drink of water, you have to hike up a steep and slippery slope for 300 feet. If you fall, you will slide to the bottom and it will hurt (you can die)

Then they would have lived there for the same reason why cave men lived in caves (despite being fully capable of building shelters similar to more modern hunter gatherers that didn't live in caves.)

They'd have to build an awful lot of these huge, risky pyramids in order for any significant number of people to survive. Not three. You might save five families if you used the three biggest pyramids.

Now, you could fit 50 people and food or so under Djoser's pyramid, but that's only 50 people.

The megafauna can't get in.

Not sure why they'd worry. Humans were the most deadly predator on the planet and hunted the megafauna. In fact, they hunted cave bears and cave lions to extinction, if memory serves.

But the Younger Dryas created a huge disconnect and the AE had no way of knowing the details of it. They see records of people doing stuff underground, and they figures it must be stories about death and afterlife. (Because it would be unthinkable for them to prefer to live underground while you're still alive.)

I'm not sure why you'd think it was 'unthinkable'. They knew how to dig mines, after all.

Remember, they live on the flood plain. Anybody living underground on a flood plain is gonna DIE when the flood comes (or at the least, lose everything they own.) And nobody lives in the desert. Too far to walk if you need water/stuff from your garden/wood from trees for firewood, etc.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

If they were made during the ice age?

I don't think you understand how difficult it is to get down there and how little space there is. I've been inside the Great Pyramid and inside the Red Pyramid.

In order to get down there, you have to walk down a fairly slippery slope (they put boards as "treads" across it and have handrails now), 300 feet long and so small that you have to walk bent over. Once you're down there, you end up in a series of fairly small-ish rooms -- 15 feet by 15 feet -- around the size of my living room.

So there's room for 6 people to sleep (more if you're literally on top of each other) but no place to cook, put your fire, or go to the bathroom.

If you want a drink of water, you have to hike up a steep and slippery slope for 300 feet. If you fall, you will slide to the bottom and it will hurt (you can die)

Then they would have lived there for the same reason why cave men lived in caves (despite being fully capable of building shelters similar to more modern hunter gatherers that didn't live in caves.)

They'd have to build an awful lot of these huge, risky pyramids in order for any significant number of people to survive. Not three. You might save five families if you used the three biggest pyramids.

Now, you could fit 50 people and food or so under Djoser's pyramid, but that's only 50 people.

I'm not thinking of the pyramids themselves. I'm thinking of the caves around it. Some of them go very deep. The pyramids themselves would be useful as platforms (if they were only step pyramids in the ice age.).

There are some caves that are exceptionally big on the same plateu as the GP, and you can only go so deep into them because the bat guano smell gets so bad.

I think it's this documentary where they go down into one.

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=lost+caves+of+giza&qid=1623886447&s=instant-video&sr= 1-1

Although the one they're going into appears natural. It is, nonetheless very big. They never figured out how deep it actually goes.

The megafauna can't get in.

Not sure why they'd worry. Humans were the most deadly predator on the planet and hunted the megafauna. In fact, they hunted cave bears and cave lions to extinction, if memory serves.

They made hardly any impact at all on the populations for around 50,000 years. All anyone remembers is the last 200 years or so, after the younger dryas hit the megafauna really hard. After the younger dryas event, even hunting them at normal levels would have been enough to kill them off.


Look at people like the Gravettians. From 33000 years back. They were more or less perfectly in harmony with the populations they hunted, numberically. Because they didn't over reproduce. So they didn't keep needing more and more food. Just the same amount year after year.

They fit their niche, and it was enough for them. We're talking tens of thousands of years. Time over which genetic evolution can weigh in. Why do you think so many video games consist of killing monsters and getting loot? It matches 40,000 years of evolved instinct.

en.wikipedia.org...


On top of that, what is known of their hunting techniques shows that they rarely managed to actually bring one down in a straight up fight. Their weapons focused on inflicting injuries that would slow the animal down and cause it to fall behind the rest of the herd, so they could gang up and attack it alone.

Humans were NOTHING AT ALL like an apex predator. You can't win a straight up battle against a herd of elephants using flint knapped spears. That would be madness.

But the Younger Dryas created a huge disconnect and the AE had no way of knowing the details of it. They see records of people doing stuff underground, and they figures it must be stories about death and afterlife. (Because it would be unthinkable for them to prefer to live underground while you're still alive.)

I'm not sure why you'd think it was 'unthinkable'. They knew how to dig mines, after all.

You yourself a few posts back said they thought there were demons down there.

Remember, they live on the flood plain. Anybody living underground on a flood plain is gonna DIE when the flood comes (or at the least, lose everything they own.) And nobody lives in the desert. Too far to walk if you need water/stuff from your garden/wood from trees for firewood, etc.

Egypt's climate has varied over longer time spans. For a while there, it was more like a swamp.

I have kind of wondered if there is any evidence that the Egyptians had some kind of water-driven hoist mechanism that used the nearby water and slippery mud to more efficiently drag the big rocks up and into the pyramids. Don't see too many pyramids that are far away from water. Just wondering.

a reply to: Blue Shift



Harte

originally posted by: Blue Shift
I have kind of wondered if there is any evidence that the Egyptians had some kind of water-driven hoist mechanism that used the nearby water and slippery mud to more efficiently drag the big rocks up and into the pyramids. Don't see too many pyramids that are far away from water. Just wondering.

Not quite the machinery your thinking about, but here's a couple things which provide the basic mechanism.

Our measurements in fact span a similar range of stresses as the Egyptians; an estimate of the maximum load they pulled is one ton per square meter or 10,000 Pa. We put up to 20N on roughly 80cm2, so we get to 2500 Pa, of the same order of magnitude. As for the archeologists, some have interpreted the pouring of the water in front of the sled as being purely ceremonial[1,2], which does not seem a correct interpretation in view of the results presented here. There is also evidence that in some cases the Egyptians built roads for the sleds out of wooden sleepers[3–5]. The possibility of dragging the sled through desert sand is often precluded because it is believed to be too difficult[3,5]. However, in view of our results, it seems very possible to drag the sleds over wet sand with the manpower available to the Egyptians[5]. In fact, the value of the friction coefficient of wood on wood is in the range of 0.25 μd 0.7[18]; especially for the poly-disperse sand here, which is closest to the Egyptian desert sand[17], we arrive at friction coefficients as low as 0.3; thus,the dragging can be just as easy over sand as over the wooden sleepers. In addition, the “optimal” friction coefficient of 0.3 that we find here coincides remarkably well with estimates that have been made on the basis of the tomb drawings. A friction coefficient of 0.33 was estimated, on the basis of the maximum pulling strength that the ropes were able to sustain[19].
pure.uva.nl...

What began as an expedition to record the inscriptions of ancient Egyptian quarry workers produced a remarkable discovery about the Great Pyramid at Giza. My colleagues and I in the Anglo-French joint archaeological mission to the ancient quarry site of Hatnub recently revealed the existence of a well-preserved haulage ramp dating to the time of the Great Pyramid, roughly 4,500 years ago.

We think this could significantly change the theories about how the workers who built the monument were able to transport such large blocks of stone to great heights. It could even provide evidence that pulleys were invented hundreds of years earlier than previously documented.

The rock-cut ramp is flanked by two flights of rock-cut stairs, into which are cut post holes that would originally have held wooden posts, now long perished. The pattern of post holes is well enough preserved that we can begin to reconstruct a pulley system that would have been used to lift large blocks of alabaster out of the open-cast quarry.
theconversation.com...

.

It's funny how, if just concede to them basic technologies, like pulleys, then they don't need aliens to provide them with lasers anymore.