Homosexuality. The Endless Debate. What do you guys think about this?

Take a look at this:

www.healthyplace.com...

I am a God fearing male who, even though am no longer praciticing, still consider myself to be "gay". (Please don't tell me my desires are a choice. The decision to act on them is but the desires themselves?)
I have done a TON of research as of late and I'm still drawing alot of blanks. There are a lot of theories going around about what causes homosexuality like not having a strong father figure causing it and the "Grains and Tendencies theory". (I'm now leaning towards the grains and tendencies theory but will elaborate on that more later depending on how this thread goes) Right now the most important things for me are the spiritual implications. One thing is for certain, we are all generic in the womb up until a certain point at which we develop the sex we are born with. What are your thought concerning the hermaphrodite linked to above? How do the scriptures apply to him/her? Personally, I think in the end it will all boil down to the difference between sex inside the context of love and sex outside the context of love. Looking forward to the responses.

[edit on 22-3-2005 by TxSecret]

You wont like this, but thats too bad honestly. To qulaify, I do not fear a god.

You may or may not make a choice to be gay. However, people don't ever choose to be mentally ill. It is a problem. A problem that needs to be treated. We may not know enough about it at this point to treat it properly. That is more than likely due to forced gay agendas that are starting to run wild through society. Forcing us to accept your mental illness as acceptable is a problem. It is something that none of us, including you, should be willing to accept. The fact that you like members of the same sex goes against all laws of nature. Why is it that we should accept this as natural? Forcing agendas such as this is akin to christians forcing their agendas.


You almost admitted in your thread that you have a problem. But you stopped short. Denial..... Thats always the first thing to overcome it seems.

Just for the record, because I know mods will probably try to get on my case about this. My opinion (yes, opinion...I may be wrong) that homosexuality is a mental illness is just as valid as someone who disagrees with me. That is a valid argument whether it offends you or not.

I was hoping for some more intelligent replys but so far only one rather unintelligent one from you Seapeople.
First of all the fact that you don't fear God has little bearing on me and and if you didn't notice, no bearing considering the question I'm posing. If you think because you believe homosexuality is a disease offends me you are barking up the wrong tree. Also, your conviction that homosexuality is a "mental illness" is amusing. First you state it like it's fact and then after that you state it's your "opinion". Usually in an argument you do that the other way around and you don't state something as fact when you don't really know for sure and can't prove it... which you can not. Just for the record, I'm not trying to push anything on anyone. Explain how and why you thought I was trying to force you to believe (According to you, my "mental illness") is acceptable? This leads me back to the real reason I'm here: trying to get a better grasp of a question I have for myself. (Call it a disease or problem if you want, that is YOUR oppinion). Ok.. Let's get back to the main question at hand. What do you think of the Hermaphrodite linked to above? Does He/She go against nature? What kind of relationship do you think there could be between Hermaphrodites like the one linked to above and homosexuals/lesbians. Also consider these other questions that are raised on the site that I'm linking you guys too.

"As you look through my site, I hope you'll think about these questions:


* Can we heal the mindless wounds we and others have inflicted on us, for the crime of being different outside than we are inside, by divisive and false social conditioning?

* Are we not all the same ambi-gendered children of the universe, residing in some arbitrary physical form?

* Who's agenda is furthered by dividing us?

Please try to answer these questions with some matter of intelligence and keep in mind I'm not here to debate or feel bad about whether or not you fear God.

Oppinions and thoughts are great. Trust me, you are not going to offend me.


[edit on 23-3-2005 by TxSecret]

[edit on 23-3-2005 by TxSecret]

well i have no problem with homosexuals. im a republican(old school not this bush hijacked for of republican) a believer in god.

i have no problem if they get married, adopt kids so on and so forth. i also believe that if god didnt really like homosexuals he would strike them all down or something similar to wipe them out.

if your gay, thats cool to me ive had several gay friends in highschool. but if you force it on me or start hitting on me ill pop you one upside the head.

I tell it like I see it. Obviously, you were offended by the way, or you wouldn't have gotten defensive.

You know as well as anyone else that your lifestyle is not natural. I was not, and am not trying to offend you. However, I do feel that you need to seek help. It is a mental illness in MY OPINION, which I qualified in the previous post. I qualify that only because it is not conclusively proven yet. It will be though. To be totally honest, I am sure it is already. Likely, this information is just held from us due to fear of the reprocussions of the few loudmouths that may have something to say from the political left.
Why am I so sure?


Its just simple. If the world was populated with all gay males, then humans would cease to exist. That makes homosexuality a virus to the human race. I wont get into the other issues regarding the consequences of your lifestyle.

The only reason I mentioned that I am not a god fearing person is due to the political nature of this subject. Religious conservatives are usually the ones who are called racists, and bigots, regarding this issue. I made it clear that I do not fit that bill. That is the only reason I mentioned it.

Now, you mentioned, or asked a question. You asked whos agenda am I furthering by causing division. I strongly disagree with the wording of that question. First and foremost, if you want to get a true picture of where the division starts, look at the television. Any news channel will show a protest full of homosexuals in any given week. They will be criticising those of us who are not homosexual. The only difference is that they do it in a maner intended to bring about controversy as to further their political agenda. The forcing of homosexual ideals and lifestyle acceptance into our childrens lives is a critical mistake. You yourself even entertained the fact that environment may play a role in homosexuality.

Do you feel homosexuality is genetic? What is your true position?

That's cool KrazyIvan and I respect your position and your tolerance but I'm not really looking for approval and I'm not trying to push anything on anyone. The thrust of my question/point involves the cause of sexual orientation "anomalies". You have the folks who believe that environment is the cause. (i.e. lack of a strong father figure) and the folks who believe that it's all genetic. Right now I sort of think it's a little environment and alot of genetic mixed together but that's just my current oppinion. I think as far as any post natal environmental factors being the cause this whole hermaphrodite thing really throws a wrench in to that one I think. In a nutshell I'm really just trying to get some clarity and peace as to what causes someones labido to not properly match the body they are in. And of course there is the question: how in the world does someone decide what sex to be if they are born a hermaphrodite? I mean, would or does environmental factors have an affect on the labidic orientation of a Hermaphrodite.. if so to what extent??? And don't forget the whole spiritual aspect of all this. I consider myself to be a Christian and I can just see a bunch of people just getting all bent out of shape about that. I mean.. how could I be a Christian and have desires for the same sex? Let me just say this: It is my sprirtuality that keeps me completely abstinent and NOT active as far as homosexuality is concerned. There is somone special in my life who wants to go to the next level but I'm not in a position spiritually to do that right now. I sometimes wonder if the right person of the "correct" sex is out there for me but as of late I have not met this person. That's part of the reason I'm posting here. I'm sure I will not find the absolution I seek in a forum such as this but something deep down tells me it will help. I believe sex and love are two totally different things but that they are inexorably intertwined. Sex is a window to another persons soul. It's the closest you can get to someone in this lifetime. It is the ultimate bonding. Why should I deny the love of another person because of the the arbitrary sex they currently possess?(Relative to there labido) If you feel the body you are is not arbitrary please elaborate on why it is not? (And please don't tell me it's because it just goes against nature because I've heard that a million times. It's not like I'm trying to date a sheep or something.) More thoughts and oppinions are appreciated if you will.

Also, any points on Christianity/sprituality are intended for the likeminded in this forum. If you are not of this orientation that is fine as I have said probably more than once, I'm not trying to push anything on anyone. Just keep in mind that you can not change the way I feel about The Trinity anymore than I can change you from being agnostic/athiest. I'm looking for BOTH spiritually and non spiritually oriented thoughts and oppinions.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by TxSecret]

I have to admit that is a good question. Either way, you would be seriously messed up in the head if you were born that way.

I don't consider myself being defensive, just calling it like I see it. Sometimes theres a fine line between being defensive and just shooting straight from the hip. I have no problem with your position but before I go on here I have to say I strongly and respectfully disagree with you about whether or not the cause of sexual "misorientation" has been nailed down in imperical fashion. If you ever find infomation about that occuring PLEASE send it my way. About what you said concerning the whole homosexual "agenda" I feel that's something for another topic/thread altogether and don't really want to get involved in that at the moment. I'm not currently one of those "pride" people anyways so it really doesn't apply to me and me not being "gay" is not going to change the whole movement. Not to mention, I have some friends that have been in a gay relationship for 20+ years and have a 16 year old son that is very well adjusted (and straight by the way). After reading that you will probably realize I'm not the best person to talk to about how a gay person could or shouldn't ever raise kids. If all the males in the world were gay we would stop to exists? I'm sorry but I have to get a little bit of a chuckle out of that one. First of all I doubt that would or could ever happen. Second of all there are MANY other "anomalies" in nature besides homosexuality. I believe in balance and I think mother nature is the grand master balance keeper of them all. (If you really think about it ALL of life is a balance) In my last post I mentioned that at the moment I'm leaning towards genetic causes for misguided labidos but I do feel that environmental factors to have a bearing.. albeit a small one in my humble oppinion. Hard to say if that's my "true" position because I'm still exploring all this myself.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by TxSecret]

Seapeople,

It's not a valid argument for the sole reason that it holds no emprical ground; your opinion is grounded in opinion, not fact. When your provide us with factual data that proves your point, you may have one. It's as valid as me stating that hetrosexuality is a mental disease. It's non-sensical.

Its just simple. If the world was populated with all gay males, then humans would cease to exist. That makes homosexuality a virus to the human race. I wont get into the other issues regarding the consequences of your lifestyle.

The world is not populated with homsexual peoples; what about women or men who are sterile? Are they deliterious to society?

If it is a choice, then may I be so bold as to ask, why do animals choose to be homosexual? Do they have some sort of advantage in nature due to their choice of mating with the same sex? If it is a mental illness, then why do homosexual contribute to society tatamount to hetrosexuals? I see no negative side-affects, accept for the fact that they choose to sleep with the same sex.

Deep

i don't think that being gay is genetic i think it is some thing that the person wants to be no genetics are involved it is just one male and or female liking the same gender as they are
Edit:spelling errors
[edit on 23-3-2005 by WaxPineapple]

[edit on 23-3-2005 by WaxPineapple]

I think being gay is wrong. Yes I am religious, but that is not the only reason I think so. Fact is the penis was meant to be inserted into a vagina. Not a butt. I believe homosexuality is a choice. Being genetic just doesnt make sence. I dont believe God hates gay ppl though. He loves all His creations. He loves every1 no matter what they do.

Just wondering though. How could you not love the ladies? I mean when I see a lady with a big pair.... DAM.

Zero,

Sometimes you try to act like you are this intelectual person who has a grip on things. Then you open your mouth and remind me of the truth.

I clearly stated several times that THIS IS MY OPINION. What you should do, is go back and read. Now, if you have any trouble with that, they have illiteracy classes for adults.

However, you proved to me something when I read your post. You are a follower, pushing an agenda just like the rest of them. You want to act as if you are logical, but in the process show your foolishness. What you said to me was....and I quote your horrible example showing how oblivious to reality you really are:

"The world is not populated with homsexual peoples; what about women or men who are sterile? Are they deliterious to society?"

This remark was posed as a question yes. The question was though, by nature, directed to show me to be wrong. As if I would not be able to respond to this. Well, maybe you should take your supperior intellect and think for a moment about what it is you just said.

Did you think about it oh wise one?

Your point was that sterile people are not problems as far as society is concerned. That was clear to anyone on this forum. Maybe you are correct. One thing you overlooked..in your infinite wisdom. These sterile people ADMITTEDLY HAVE A PROBLEM. They are "defective". Not fully functional.

You tried to make a point by comparing gays to people with physical malfunctions. Your point was well taken. Thanks for supporting exactly what I am saying, even if you are not astute enough to know it.

I was sort of hoping this wouldn't turn into a giant flame session but it's not a complete train wreck yet. Seapeople, you have stated that it is your oppinion that you are purporting but you didn't exactly make that clear coming out of the gate in your first post, so I would say you didn't set a very good stage.Not harping on you though even though I wish you would address the questions I have instead of focusing on the gay agenda. That's not what I'm talking about or "pushing" here. Also in your last post you mentioned "illiteracy" classes.. I've heard of Literacy classes but not "illiteracy" classes. Don't get me wrong, I've had my share of boo boos while posting, just got a kick out of that. (You never know, there probably is some school somewhere teaching Illiteracy classes) Croat and Waxpineapple.. In my earlier post, I mentioned that I believe homosexuality (In most cases) is not a choice but "going along" with it is. Bear in mind my definition of homosexuality is a male with a labido that strongly points in the same sex direction. Let me pose a question for all of you: Let's say you are at a party and you are just hanging around having a drink and minding your own business. All of a sudden these hot chicks walk in and you start getting all the typical physical responses like elevated heart rate, butterflies in your stomach and so forth. Now imagine a gay guy in the same situation. I'm sure you can guess these "hot chicks" do absolutely nothing for him but as soon as a, let's just say, good looking guys walk in, the same physical responses I mentioned earlier concerning the straight guy happen to him. How can these physical responses be a choice? If you believe that they are a choice please tell me how this is possible. Now you can repress these feelings but can you just turn them off like a switch? I also find amusement in what croat56 said about the penis made for the vagina and not the butt... The only thing I'm going to say about that and I don't mean to offend anybody.. But do you notice how when guys are involved in that activity it's called "fudgepacking" and of course the good ole' term sodomy is used on a regular basis.. But when a guy and girl has anal sex it's called just that.. anal sex. Amazing isn't it. Bear in mind also that just because a guy is gay doesn't mean that he engages in anal sex. I've known people who are "gay" and will not have any part of that. Zero, I find your analogy between gay people and sterile people interesting. It's a loose broad analogy but I'll go along with it. Sterile people have a proven medical problem which is broadly understood with understood causes whereas the cause of homosexuality is FAR from being understood on that level. Sea People, you say sterile people admittedly have a problem and Good God man, I would never call my fellow human being defective no matter what kind of "issue" they may have. Do you not have even the faintest amount of heart? I can guaratee you that sterile people didn't CHOOSE to be sterile: something for you to think about. And is homosexuality really a "problem" or "disease"? Still not proven and I probably don't have to remind anyone that can only be an oppinion at this point. BACK to the hermaphrodite issue again.. No one is really talking about the questions I have posed a priori. Come on guys, you can do better than this.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by TxSecret]

Sea People,

Think of me as you may, matters little to me what an arbritrary memebers of ATS finds my countenance to be, however, you are beset to believe in something which finds little precedence logical and rational, nor do you have statistical evidence to prove your dogma, which it is nothing more than.

I don't post much, so there is no need for me to act in any manner. I have a different perpspective and bias in regards to certain subjects, and if you find that to be abhorant, then pay no mind to variance on ATS.

You'll only bath in your own ignorance if you continue to believe that homosexuality is a disease when it is clearly not and you have provided no reasons to believe otherwise.

Maybe you should read the following.

www.psych.org...

Whereas homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgement, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities, the American Psychiatric Association calls on all international health organizations, and individual psychiatrists in other countries, to urge the repeal in their own country of legislation that penalizes homosexual acts by consenting adults in private. And further, the APA calls on these organizations and individuals to do all that is possible to decrease the stigma related to homosexuality wherever and whenever it may occur. (December 1992)

You tried to make a point by comparing gays to people with physical malfunctions. Your point was well taken. Thanks for supporting exactly what I am saying, even if you are not astute enough to know it.

You compared homsosexuality to a mental illness.

Deep

Yes zero, I did compare it to one. Well actually, I didn't compare it to one. I called it one.

However you criticized me for doing so. You did so by comparing it to a human physical illness. Interesting how you glided right over that in your response to me.....

So zero, you are of the opinion that homosexuality is not a disease. That leaves two possible choices for you. Either it is a choice, or it is genetic. Tell me, which is it that you beliveve?

Txsecret,

I didn't read past the first line of your last post because I needed to respond that quickly.

You stated:

Seapeople, you have stated that it is your oppinion that you are purporting but you didn't exactly make that clear coming out of the gate in your first post, so I would say you didn't set a very good stage

I will get to the rest of your post in a short time, but first, I wanted to QUOTE DIRECTLY FROM MY FIRST RESPONSE. Please note that my first response was never even edited.

Just for the record, because I know mods will probably try to get on my case about this. My opinion (yes, opinion...I may be wrong) that homosexuality is a mental illness is just as valid as someone who disagrees with me. That is a valid argument whether it offends you or not.

Now, you were saying what about what I didn't make clear?

Really, it's all good. I'm not getting the type of response I'm looking for but that's the way it is for now. Probably will not get too carried away responding to this thread anytime soon but for the folks that get around to reading this thread, (responding or not) you have to admit this is interesting and makes you think. Maybe some valid responses will come around but for now I'm going to leave it at that.

Again, you just assume these reponses are not valid because you do not like what you hear. Maybe you should listen to the words of the vast majority. Politically correct people are those who are afraid. It just so happens that I do not care what you think of me, nor should you care what I think of you.

You should though CARE VERY MUCH about the agendsa that those with the same problem as you try to push on the children of this country.

i think some people choose to be gay, others are born gay... maybe they are affected by hormones in birth control pills?? i dont think we can put every gay person in the same bag, they all have their different reasons for beeing gay...but ...yeah ...i do think it is possible the hormones in birth control pills may have influence, because tho mothers dont take brith control during pregnancy, there may be a possibility that some remains may affect the fetus....................................off course noone would be interested in investigating this scientifcally because of ....LAWSUITS !

[edit on 25-3-2005 by BaastetNoir]

I'm not assuming anything Seapeople. It's pretty self evidently obvious that some, if not most of the dialogue in this thread is invalid relative to the topic and it's intended course. Even if I do dislike of any of the responses it doesn't really have anything to do with me calling them invalid. I find your your anti-gay activism interesting but it's not going to do a thing to stop the "agenda" or people like me starting threads such as this. Like I said in my earlier posts I'm not actively involved in any "pride" or "pro-gay" agenda. Im merely trying to have a discussion about something I find very interesting. Speaking of assuming, you mentioned that I should care about what "people like me" are "pushing" on children. You ASSUME I don't care but you are light years off the mark on that one. I happen to like and care for children very much. (And hope to have some very soon) The type of "influence" that gay people might have on children and whether or not they can make good parents is really for another thread (I might start on on that eventually) but apparently you are flat out determined to shoot this one down. Maybe you should think about becoming a prosecuting attorney so you can "shoot" gay molesters down to your hearts content. (I'm sure you will find a ton of straight child molesters as well) As far as threads like this, perhaps you should spend more time trying to understand something rather than wasting your time trying to shoot it down just because you don't "like" it. Maybe if you truly tried to understand the "problems" that manage to elicit your responses you could truly make a difference but for now you are only fueling your opposition and making yourself look like a real heel.

And before I forget: Read your first post Seapeople. It wasnt until the END of said post that you stated your standing was oppinion. (DUH) I merely stated that you should normally do that before you go making it sound like fact like you did coming out of the gate. AGAIN I will say you didn't set a very good stage for yourself. You do know what I mean by "coming out of the gate" and "setting the stage" don't you???


[edit on 26-3-2005 by TxSecret]