Hitler's Generals and post war Germany.

I came across this bit of interesting history. You would think that after the defeat of Germany in the second world war, German Generals would have been quietly retired if not subject to a war crimes tribunal, but no , after serving under Hitler many of them and their subordinate officers were quickly gathered up and had their old rank back even some questionable ones. Did they earn an iron cross awarded by Hitler during the said war? they sure did and were allowed to wear them with their medals as long as the Swastika was removed.

a reply to: anonentity

So much secrecy and post-war pre cold war theatrics going on it's hard to trace it all, between Operation Paperclip and German Admiral Canaris' wife receiving a pension from the US there were plenty of secrets. Probably lots of issues we will never know the answers to. Especially as our greatest generation passes on.

originally posted by: anonentity
I came across this bit of interesting history. You would think that after the defeat of Germany in the second world war, German Generals would have been quietly retired if not subject to a war crimes tribunal, but no ,

after serving under Hitler many of them and their subordinate officers were quickly gathered up and had their old rank back even some questionable ones. Did they earn an iron cross awarded by Hitler during the said war? they sure did and were allowed to wear them with their medals as long as the Swastika was removed.

This is due to what happened after WW1.

After the first World War the European power wanted Germany destroyed so that it could never threaten them again.

This lead to Germany becoming a failed state. Both socially and economically. Which was a direct cause of WW2

The US needed Germany to be on its side after WW2 to create a buffer between the west and Russia so it allowed some powerful or influential people to remain in place. They had skills and influence that would help to keep the communists out of West Germany.

In short, they stayed because they were useful. No big conspiracies nothing covert. They were good at what they did so they were allowed to keep doing it.

Not just in Germany but IMO many of the paperclip boys (100% NAZI is most cases) that were brought to America and besides the space program worked for the CIA. Overthrowing Central and south American governments Iran and regime changes all over the world as the CIA was an entity unto itself. JFK once said something along the lines of, he wanted to bust them into 1000 pieces and let the wind scatter their ashes... That did not work out to well for him now did it ?

And most of them lived through Hitlers stupidity and a failed fascist state, noting the extreme pointlessness of what had taken place
I don’t see the issue with using military minds and stabilising a country with proven resources

a reply to: anonentity

The Iron Cross had been a German award prior to Hitler's regime. I could see that issue from both angles.

But this was not only in the West. East Germany, which made such a show of being free of Hitlerian taint, employed very many ex-Wehrmacht, SS, police, and intel veterans of Hitler's time in power. Brown became red and that was that, at least as far as the official attitude went. The DDR troops goose-stepped until the end and no one in power there saw anything ironic about it.

Cheers

originally posted by: F2d5thCavv2
a reply to: anonentity

The Iron Cross had been a German award prior to Hitler's regime.

It's still used today.

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

I was born in the DDR, got to West Germany being not even two years old. Some that lived in East German are brainwashed still from this, I know some families that settled here back then, together with my family in Swabia.

Some really believe in "free stuff" and some even have the nerves to say that it was all better back then. Mostly those that can not be trusted with money, have credits exchange credits and run to the police for every fart you make.

Even my mother used to say things like the above, then my dad would get really angry because they didn't flee for fun and risked to get shot with me on their arm and my brother in her womb.

They were very isolated, similar to North Koreans. Lot's of stories that make your hair stand up and or scratch your head.

a reply to: anonentity

The idea was to punish the high command and sometimes those directly involved with the atrocities of the war. Due to the secretive nature of how Hitler gave orders it would have been difficult convicting all of the German high command. Some might not have known the extent of the evil, some literally inherited their jobs as their superiors fled, died or were executed. The last few months was a mess.

AaarghZombies makes a good point of how the west needed an operable German military at the end of hostilities too. Technically West Germany was Germany proper and this would be true of when the wall fell too. Although the history books might paint a slightly different picture. I think the biggest point I'm making is little changed in organisation, infrastructure and the companies/businesses that made it all possible. Authoritarianism was crushed.

The iron cross is still in use.

Similar things happened in Japan too. The west crushed the culture and evolved the place into an economic powerhouse that was drastically inflated. At one point I think Japan was worth 4x the US in terms of land value. They did have leaders with extremely dodgy pasts involved with their nation for a long time after the war. Look into Japan if you find this kind of history fascinating.

German technology catapulted the west and the east, I've read some interesting things about project Riese that could possibly indicate the Soviets advanced their nuclear knowledge extensively due to this project. That said nobody can find anything concrete (other than concrete) to indicate this.

I always suspected this is why Stalin was ignorant when Truman told him about the nuclear bomb. In my opinion Stalin knew about two nuclear projects. Just conjecture... Though it's worthy of note that the Soviets were the 2nd nuclear armed nation (via own means) despite nations like Britain working extremely closely to the US on nuclear technology.

I also think AarghZombies got it right, similar was taught to us in school. It's undeniable since their names keep turning up and the reasons are what AarghZombies described.

And while that was done later, the second bombing of Dresden through US forces happened and thousands of mothers and children burned, that were sent there via train. Another train carrying women and children was shot at from fighter planes at night.

When that train reached Dresden, the bodies were still smoldering. That was done just to show us our place. Innocent women and children burned alive.

It fit's perfectly into the cold calculation of the US government back then. I can share other stories from my relatives, where they have been shot at two weeks later, after the war ended, doing field work, for fun or whatever sick reasons they had.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

The tit for tat warfare accounts for some of the horrors on both sides of the war but it doesn't account for all of them.

It was learning about the Dresden bombings when I was young that truly sunk in the feeling that the victors control the narrative. Allied actions went a little further than destroying German industry on a few occasions.

I genuinely hope humans never go to that dark place again. There's plenty of cases where German soldiers fought alongside allies and refused orders... It's scary what people can be pushed to do and it's often the case that we don't get remembered for the things we didn't do.

The reality is most German's were decent people trying to do the right thing in a totally wrong situation, that's true for both sides.

a reply to: RAY1990

The reality is most German's were decent people trying to do the right thing in a totally wrong situation, that's true for both sides.

I think it's more complicated and by explaining my viewpont, I risk getting painted certain labels but here it is:


The German culture / mindset is efficiency. It's not by accident that a lot of Germans and also of German descent have made brilliant inventions. As a German it's obvious if you look at the name, even some Americanized names, you can tell by the forename and a letter left out what family they come from.

Our culture is also obsessed with documenting and getting it 100%, which is also a negative thing.

That mindset, coupled with WW1 aftermath, grudge against Jews because they naturally only did higher jobs like salesmen or banking (attention this is directly from my relatives alive during that time) and weren't the most fair salesmen, in the eyes of the simple people.

Then charismatic Hitler came along and with his backup, played the right cards. Remember the Reichskristallnacht, where the blame was put on the Jews, setting a lot of what happened in motion. First it was against the Jews and when the critical mass was reached, it was a self perpetuating situation.

Similar to what I see happening in the USA currently, but with the left. Free speech is castrated, gun takeaway, media is almost "gleichgeschaltet" (google it, not sure if there is an english term, it means they all tell you the same by intent), people are coerced into following the "general mindset", setup by the media. The most hollow string puppet (personal opinion) ever and no wonder people start to draw the parallels to NAZI Germany.

But how dare to say this, since this ought never happen again. It won't in that way, it will happen similar but with different demographics.

I really hope I am wrong though.

Add: The region I live at, Swabia (it's more difficult with upper and lower Swabia and so on but let's keep it simple)... was one of the poorest regions in Germany. Similar to Austrians, we are living in an Alp region with not so much land to grow food.

That made Swabians, it's still in our blood, very smart when it came to working with what we have. Food and tools. So the pressure to make the best out of the situation was similar to the Austrians, where we joke about them that they shat into the valleys so they can grow a little food.

We were desperate to survive and this led to what I call combine-intelligence. You work with what you have and what you do not have, you come up with it from scratch. A Swabian guy founded Hollywood. It was his cheapness that led him to buy chicken coops in California for movie production. Before that, NYC was the movie town.

Just look at most German high tech companies and where they started, it's Swabia. We are the automation and inventor state. it's not because we're smarter than others but the surrounding forced us to adapt.

a reply to: [post=25870632]anonentity[/posit]

Have you read Mungo Melvin's 'Manstein: Hitler's Greatest General'? The author delves into Manstein's role in creating the West Germany Army. In short, the "clean German Army myth" suited West German Rearmament and the Cold War's international political climate.

Also, I have read the first two instalments (1942-43) of Robert Citino's treatment of the WW2 German Army. Manstein is the perfect example of the morally bankrupt, sometimes tactically/ operationally brilliant Prussian/German military commander. Strategy, logistics, and the advancements in industrialist warfare are ignored in favour of winning short wars.

a reply to: anonentity

The apple never falls far from the tree i suppose.

As to there medals, there were brave men on both sides, they earned them did they not?

Bravado don't really care as to which side you are on, its more a personal act of choice and sometimes sacrifice.

As long as the Swastika was removed they have as much right to wear the things as any allied troops.

War after all is hell, and there are always going to be winners and losers.

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

They were very isolated, similar to North Koreans. Lot's of stories that make your hair stand up and or scratch your head.

That all ain't over yet. Still stories like you describe.

Germany has ways and means of dealing with the Nazi legacy. Unfortunately, they don't seem to take the same care with leftist fanatics from the old DDR.

Things like reunion meetings of former DDR border guards in which they defiantly proclaim how 'correct' they were to shoot those fleeing the DDR. Somewhat akin to the mentality of the former SS who took pride in their participation in the Final Solution.

Merkel's regime has been on its guard against the Right; but not so much against the Left. Consequences Unterwegst.

Cheers

a reply to: ThatDamnDuckAgain

It fit's perfectly into the cold calculation of the US government back then.

Strategic bombing raids and the acts of individual soldiers are not one and the same, and the latter was hugely informed by what Allied soldiers saw when they liberated concentration camps. You are correct in surmising there was very little sympathy for any Germans at that point.

That mentioned, what went on in areas occupied by the Western powers was tame compared to the behavior meted out by the Soviet Army. That crew was REALLY enraged with everything German.

I understand Germans have their own viewpoint about these events, but it is essential to keep those events in perspective with everything that had gone on for the five and one-half years beforehand.

Cheers

a reply to: F2d5thCavv2

I know, I got a full year history class on it. I didn't want to put the whole blame on the US, if that is your impression.

a reply to: anonentity

War is war. WW2 no different. The German military had every right to wear their medals just like the Brits and Yanks did.

No desire to win hearts and minds Afghanistan style in that era.

My own family still go to Scotland when they can to celebrate the Commando memorial services. They take the medals they take the berets.

Yet as my grandfather used to say "we never took prisoners"

He wasn't proud of what they did but it was war and when the Commando were behind enemy lines doing prep work it was impossible to take prisoners.

Their CO took any Germans surrendering behind the nearest hedge and pop pop

Horrendous unbelievable barbarity and as my grandfather said "they were just kids, too young to die" but they never took prisoners, it was war and total war and behind the enemy lines they were under orders as British Commandos to do as they did.

The family still go to Scotland, place the wreath take the beret and the medals.

a reply to: putnam6

For real. Paperclip alone. All those war criminals let off scott free. Not to mention the Japanese war criminals like Shirō Ishii of Unit 731.