Coronavirus : Have we done this before?

This will likely take a few posts

Apologies in advance for the obscene amount of typos...fat fingers+little phone ÷ patience = a mess for anyone trying to read it lol

This is purely speculative conjecture on my part, and really just posing as a "what if" . I am fascinated by the current covid pandemic and the more I learn about coronavirus in general (and how little we know comparitively to other virus) the more morbidly fascinated ive become. Knowing that they arent new, merely new to us, got me wondering if something like this had happened before. We know that the common strains of flu are descendant from the 1918 flu strain, so it would make sense to me if the same or similar were true for coronavirus.

Surprising discovery: Coronavirus has shut down the world in the past

Long-COVID post-viral syndrome: Lessons from the Russian Flu of 1889 for the COVID pandemic



A little searching and it became obvious no idea is original, but luckily that meant some people with more knowledge had already done the leg work. It seems quickly the 1889 "Russian or Asiatic Flu" has been suggested to be a likely candidate. 2 studies, one from before covid outbreak and one from after that is still being peer reviewed, suggested it highly likely a coronavirus could be the pathogen. One reason being the symptoms, ages effected, and timing never really matched 100% any known virus and were always outliers. Ill link a few articlez that go into more details... Because this thread isnt actually about this period. Though originally it was going to be, theres actually a lot of info to suggest a coronavirus was the pathogen at hand.


After several days of reading about that period of our history, it got me wondering again... If humans in some form have been around for 100k of years, surely this type of virus didnt just randomly pop into existence in the 19th century. Seeing as how many of those who suggest a connection to the 1889 flu basically started by noticing no other virus fit the accounts....were there any other known pandemics that science hadnt been able to completely explain?



Well.. Apparently we get sick...a lot. Lol epidemics and widespread disease seem to be more and more frequent (obviously) the farther back in time one goes. It seems extremely probable that a coronavirus has swept through all or a portion of the population regularly in our history. Sometimes taking large % of the population, in between waves of affecting very little of our population, which appear to potentislly come in broader waves lasting several years at a time. Thats my personal perception from all of this.


That said, there was one specific "plague" that did arise and "stick out" that happens to be fairly well documented by a handful of people at the time. As luck has it, those people were principle in the formation of Christianity in the mid 3rd century.
Thanks to the religion itself, great lengths have been gone through to protect their letters and ironically (for an agnostic like myself who usually doesnt go the Bible for science citations..no offence) serve as a very important "glimpse" into what was going on at the time.

Solving the Mystery of an Ancient Roman Plague

Church records from the third century could help identify the disease that nearly killed the empire.



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What was going on in the mid 3rd century? Well.. We arent really sure. It seems all over the world this time period repeatedly comes up as a one full of mystery/intrigue. I wont go into too much but anyone a fan of SLAYERs threads likely recognizes the time period at the very least lol it seems as a whole this time period most of humanity kind of hit a "roadbump" of some type. We have a lot of pretty drastic change happening in a relatively short time. The fall of rome, some of the first relics of Christianity and Buddhisim are starting to be found, great mounds and Necropolis begon showing all over, changes in burials being a very specific theme arising at this period. These are just a few of the dozens of examples that came up

Archaeologists Discover Important Etruscan-Roman Cemetery With Strange Burials In Corsica



Inside an Etruscan hypogeum on Corsica



A mass grave from the catacomb of Saints Peter and Marcellinus in Rome, second-third century AD




Massive ancient death pit filled with hundreds of corpses uncovered in northern Spain

Plague of Cyprian, 250-270 CE



We know of other plagues in the first few centuries, where we are pretty sure we know the pathogen. So this was a period where multiple epidemics were going on, and sandwiched in-between 2 more notable plagues is the socalled "Cyprian Plague". It was so named for Saint Cyprian of Carthage due to his words being one of the 2 main records to document at all, though recently several more independent accounts have been discovered that reference the illness


To give an idea of roughly 250AD Rome is crumbling, and Christianity starts to come under persecution after a period of general coexistence for several decades. It is my suggestion this happens at least in part by the virus that had been working its way through the population in waves - under my assumptiom that the "1889 Flu" that lasted for nearly a decade could be an example of rhe full life-cycle of a coronavirus epidemic. (Hence the hypothetical of this whole rambling post lol)

So we suddenly have the Romam emperors ordering people to worship the Roman Gods or be punished by death. Thats notated heavily but... That seems like a pretty dramatic turn for a whole society to go along with. Why? Why so much sudden desperation in genersl during this time?

Perhaps because suddenly the Gods were no longer protecting Romans , because of the plagues sweeping through, so this was their answer. In fact this specific plague seems to have gone a long way in paving the way for Modern Christianity as we know it. The behavior of Christians during this specific time period and their communications go on to be some of the pillars of the Church itself. The biggest difference seems to come from the ideological difference. Roman Gods were more "Quid pro quo", "worship me and ill protect you" kind of stuff. Whereas the Religions that.suddenly come into more favor (Buddhisim /Christianity) deal more with not being afriad of death, being content that even though 'there is suffering' in the end it will be worth it pretty much.

Here again we seem to have a pretty dramatic change in the common line of thinking, over huge geographic areas. Even when the idea change wasnt identical, it seems to be one.of similar motivation.

So this event wasnt merely a cold, or regular illness and was a much bigger event than currently given credit in current history. This was a dramatic change in what people had experienced in their history and lives and our history seems to have been directly altered as a result. St Cyprian remarks directly at one point in his writings about how they were experiencing death at un-heard of levels. He also mentions what we have to assume are examples of the symptoms themselves.

St. Cyprian

14. This trial, that now the bowels, relaxed into a constant flux, discharge the bodily strength; that a fire originated in the marrow ferments into wounds of the fauces; that the intestines are shaken with a continual vomiting; that the eyes are on fire with the injected blood; that in some cases the feet or some parts of the limbs are taken off by the contagion of diseased putrefaction; that from the weakness arising by the maiming and loss of the body, either the gait is enfeebled, or the hearing is obstructed, or the sight darkened — 

Even the neurological issues implied could be a result of coronavirus. There doesn't seem to be any other currently known pathogem that accounts for all of these symptoms, very similarly to what stuck out to some researchers early into the covid19 in relation to 1800s.

Given what we do know, all of these symptoms are possible in a coronavirus. In my opinion the commrnt about the eyes, contrary to what has been assumed previously, references conjunctivitus and not literal bleeding from the eyes. Though because of the way the current circulating virus affects both hemoglobin and ability to make platelets and clot...its not unreasonable in a hypothetical to suggest spontaneous bleeding could occur either way. We also have several accounts both from the 3rd Century aswell as the 1889 Flu that mention the fatigue, loss of limbs, and long lasting aftereffects.

Currently covid can cause circulation issues (IE Covid toes etc). At the time, they wouldnt havr even attempted to treat a circulation issue or known thats what was happening. Germ theory didnt exist in the 3rd century. So likely the exact same symptom we see present now, untreated could absolutely lead to ulcers and limbs being amputated.


So I do think its at least a strong possibility that the 3rd Century Cyprian Plague, much like the 1889 Russian Flu is now being suggested, and were both caused by successive waves of a rapidly mutating coronavirus that worked its way through the population several times over a period of 5-10 years in both cases. At its height reports are that 5,000 people a day were dying in rome. further comparing of the two periods alongside the current pandemic could give us a basline expectation of the immediate future in relation to SARScov2.


This is not to say that.i believe the world is ending or am trying to fearmonger. To the contrary i think it could be an advantage, and a shift in.longterm thinking over shortterm. Is this just 1 more hump to get over or are we at the beginning of what could be just another of our planets recurring cycles? Is the risk of that type of population loss worth risking for a "herd immunity" which is what happened in the long run, but at what loss? Not to make this into a vaccine debate , just a possible reference into a bigger picture. Will it be more like 1889 or more like 250AD, OR a mere blip..

Just thought it was interesting to ponder

very interesting and thought-provoking read, a lot to dig into here with all the links. thank you for providing some delicious brain food!

a reply to: fiverx313

Was hoping if anyome could see the similar intrigue, it would be ATS lol

But yeah there are a lot of "tentacles" , its one of those things where the more I looked at the 3rd Century specifically with this in mind- the more it all made sense. Random topics aswell like... The origin of Santa Clause

The real story of Santa Claus begins with Saint Nicholas (270 – 343 AD), who was born in the village of Patara, an area which was once Greek but is now part of Turkey. He was born to wealthy parents, who died in an epidemic while Nicholas was still young. Nicholas used his entire inheritance to assist the needy, the sick, and the suffering.

Or even the explination for why handheld bronze mirrors appeared almost instantly in the archeological record, and with such frequency to be peculiar, but at the time the use was so common or ordinary no one thought to ever document. Well St Cysprian mentions in one of his letters how the eyes specifically of those who became ill were seen as 'evil' and powerful vectors of transmission. Looking into the eyes of those who were sick was thought to be one of the main ways to catch it. My theory , is the mirrors were for those of privilege to use similar to the Greek Mythology references to Medusa.

There were several pages referencing similar mirrors from the same time period but This one was what spurred the thought. In current context its a mystery to explain but when viewed in the context above, doesnt really seem that hard to explain at all.

Certainly, these mirrors could serve only a very limited practical purpose within personal care, because at only around 2 cm diameter their glass surface was simply too small to reflect the beholder in any detail. György Németh and Ádám Szabó (2010, p. 101-102) also dismiss their use in everyday beauty activities for this reason and because of the softness of the lead, which is not suitable for ‘everyday utensils’, noting also that ‘The mirror frames were made of lead not only because it was cheap and easy to shape (mirror frames were moulded in matrix), but also because the colour and the weight of lead traditionally associated it with the underworld and with magic.’ Lead was commonly used for curse tablets in the Latin west, but these are usually considered ‘magical’ rather than votive, so there is possibly some more thinking to be done here about choice of material, and whether lead must always = ‘magical’, and by extension whether that also = ‘votive’.

Im sure there are probably many others, even from other cultures, that some with more knowledge of Late Antiquity could point out aswell.


Glad I could help spur a little.curiosity in someone else, the way some topics on ATS have done with my own for so long lol

a reply to: itswhatev

Why in the hell did they put this in Skunk Works??

a reply to: KansasGirl

I actually put it in skunk works myself, mainly because I make a lot of assumptions and didnt want to come off as suggesting we are seeing a repeat of either period mentioned. I kind of debated where best to put it and figured this would. Ive been kind of critical of some topics allowed in the Disease and Pandemic forum, Just because they are so heavily based on specilation/opinion... So i guess that was my mindset lol

a reply to: itswhatev

Maybe they'll move it, as this seems to be a very pertinent study into coronavirus' in some form may have been responsible for quite a few pandemics throughout history. Obviously the 1889 one that we have genetic material from is the easiest to dissect and confirm or deny, but I would imagine there's some technology out there that can pull evidence from even older remains that died in a "plague" or "flu" pandemic that in reality are coronavirus' that still exist today that we've built up a natural immunity or tolerance to.

Great thread topic and some fascinating reading so far.

I am pretty certain that plagues and massive disease outbreaks that happened had multiple causes, often they blamed a certain disease as causing the death while many different diseases were included in the numbers. Symptoms of many diseases are similar. So not all the deaths contributed to the nineteen eighteen pandemic were caused by that virus. Now, they have made it so this disease is responsible for many deaths that the disease did not even cause, people die with covid yet that correlation does not mean that covid caused those deaths.

I know there are people who like to break records and they will falsify evidence or misinterpret it to make them look better in the eyes of others or promote fear in others. This virus has increased some people's prestige to way higher levels, they made grocery store workers into heros...for just doing their job they are paid to do. Another brainwashing of society, this virus is killing some people and raising the rate of deaths somewhat that are immune compromised from multiple reasons but we don't need to fear it, we must be more cautious though and take precautions not to overload the hosptitals.

First of all, I love this OP. This, THIS is ATS!

However, would venture my own “what if”. And it goes like this. The further along we get I’m convinced that this has been in the works for years. Exported from UNC. Maybe even somewhere else with the containment protocols for a grown/known virus with “potential”.

I think you may be right to a degree, but with any technology, we weaponize it and try to harness Nature for our short-sighted ways in terms of control and domination.

It was cultivated and manicured, this chimaera. We war-gamed it 9/19 and called it “Event 201”.

I still don’t know what to think about it’s mortality rate. Was it released early? Did it escape? Will we ever know?

Is it easier to convince people to get a questionable shot in order to way-lay WW3 because a bioweapon was unleashed on the world?

Is it about the virus, or the vaccine?

Or something else entirely?

Brilliant thread, thank you!

a reply to: slatesteam

While I admit i am a very un-trusting person by nature, in relation to anyone/anything lol so I dont want to act like i cant understand where the 'bioweopin' argument comes from. Regardless of who the actor is in the scenario releasing it intentionally.

That said the one huge problem i have with that regardless of the variables is- how did/can they account for the natural genetic drift both expected aswrll as literally playing out in real time right now with mutations. So of the initial wuhan strain the world has access to* is the weopon... The current 'top' strain has drifted quite a bit since it was released and will continue to drift until it no longer can sustain h2h transmission within a community. If i have the perfect virus, that could potentially ruin my plans in a few months or take years... Its just si unpredictable even with the AI 'deep minds' working on Trying to even track it.

Theoretically it would take someone being abke to account for that ahead of time in some currenrly unknown way. Especially in relation to a coronavirus specifically. Granted it would depend on what the motive actually was to some extent- and theoretically its possible, however improbable, someone has figured out how to anticipate the mutations to a reasonabkr degree and we just dont know it. But aside from that or something equally improbable, it just seems there are other known pathogens with much potential for change, and who knows what type of bioweopons we really do have...for them to settle on this purposefully just doesnt make sense to me.


At best, it escaped accidently from human error while being studied or even hypothetically modified in some way- but I do not think intentional release for a specific goal makes the most sense given what we know. Thats just my opiniom though, and i know some have vested a lot in trying ti prove otherwise.... I have yet to see anything verifiable that makes me doubt my current opiniom though




Edit to add: so.... Purely hypothetically of course. If my OP happened to be similar to truth/reality and it was even more speciric to being derivativs of the same virus that cause our world to temporary be 'reset'.... Anticipating that due to releasing another derivative thats been harvested from one of the many tombs from the 3rd century or 1889, would be somethijg i could see being an advantage. If the cycle was inevitable, but only the timing could be deliberately controlled , knowing the ultimate outcome definitely would be an advantage to anyone wanting to reemerge a "world power" or something like that. However as farfetched as that would be, that would be the closest scenario i can currently think of where intentional release held some benefit to the releaser....because it wouldnt be about knowing the future mutations, only about knowing you had to survive potentially a decade or more and wait it out....hmmm

Nice thread, one thing that a lot of plagues have in common is comets right before, I have not researched the oldest one (just reheard it) several others share this attribute with the current one. Better put every time I searched for a pandemic and searched for a comet preceding there was one.

a reply to: CrazyFox

Yes ive seen that suggested though dont know of anyone whos pinpointed/verified other than speculation. It is an interesting idea though


One theory that seemed to evolve organically on a 'Flu Trackers" was about noticing how 6 years prior to quite a few outbreaks in our past, there had been a significant volcano explosion. At first i believe it was more a joke suggestion due to 1 example, but when different posters srarted looking it was seemingly a common pattern. However in my opiniom its more logical to me that its a good example of how correlation doesnt always equal causation, and that we as humans have a tendency to want to see patterns. Usually in my experience, when you look for something specifically hard enough
...you will eventually find it, even if "it" isnt an accurate portrayal of reality. ...Now ill have to see if I can find that post lol

Though it also wouldnt surprise me at all if there was an external connection to either our solar system itself or even the planet itself. However I dont know that I believe we would see it beforehand , it just seems like it would a pattern only noticed in hindsight.

I have seen the volcano theory as well, and did exactly as you said and figured it fits in the comet theory since those play havoc with the earth's gravitational property's as well. My points are basically observational and my conclusions can seem preposterous, but the same inner voice that told me to turn on the TV on 9 eleven, that told me to search (with no knowledge at the time) Antarctica Nazis and G Bush, told me to look at the comets. The priors led down the biggest rabbit hole that the journey has been so horrific I wish I never went daily. So I have not gone in this one for fear of how it is all connected and what that means. I will but have not yet.

a reply to: itswhatev

a reply to: CrazyFox

Curiously, if you dont mind me asking...feel free to u2u me if you dont want to answer in a reply.


Without acknowledging what specifically you believe, do you think your trepidation to "go in on this " topic as you put it, is more a fear of the unknown? Or more a fear of confirmation in something you suspect? Or something else that you suspect?

Consequently say you did look into it and happened to come to the conclusion yourself that there isnt a true correlation or connection between anything metioned- do you think that would satisfy your own curiosity? So, if you looked into a topic (this or otherwise really) that the reality of had been causing you anxeity only to find that when you try to 'make it fit', it doesnt... Do you think you would trust your findings or would you look for alternatives to explain why you have that feeling you mention?

For the record, i do both believe and trust that 'gut' feeling. Call it intuition or any other word, i have no explination but i do believe one day we will understand it to be a natural physiological response from somewhere...even if we never understand where.

Sorry if that makes no sense lol its hard for me to make the thoughts in my head effectively come out sometimes, if it doesnt just ignore the questions haha and i appreciate u taking the time to comment

Hi all. Just a wild thought. Those cave drawings of men in helmets....could they have been men in masks due to some form of virus?

a reply to: itswhatev

Not forgetting the 1913 Hog Cholera ------- later referred to as Swine Flu.

or the mysterious EATON AGENT;

www.webofstories.com...

originally posted by: dowot
Hi all. Just a wild thought. Those cave drawings of men in helmets....could they have been men in masks due to some form of virus?

Thats... Hmm..

Thats actually an idea ive never had before, interesting. I guess in some ways its more plausible than some of the other theories. Though it would still suggest the presence of an advanced race with "lost knowledge" since it was another.1800+ish years before germ theory. Though, i suppose it doesnt nessicarily require actual knowledge of germs, since for most of our histoey myasma (spelling) was how we thought disease spread. Basically "bad air", so a covering of some type to prevent one from being ecposed to the "bad air" even if for "wrong reasons" would still provide a similar function if designed well.


Hmm thanks for the thought, interesting to ponder

a reply to: steaming

Interesting- hadnt come across the "Eaton Agent" either. As for swine flu in 1913, much like the 1918 flu, and the bovine illness i believe shortly before the 1889 Flu that killed millions of cows worldwide (this being one suggestiom for how the 1889 virus couldve been a mutate beta coronavirus originally coming from.Bovines and possibly jumping to humans during the culling process that commenced) we definitely have had no shortage of illnesses in our history. I think thats whats curious to me in a way. We have records of "epidemics" throughout history of known and Unknowm causes. Thats fairly commom. However only several times throughout does it seem the infection was communicable enough to spread worldwide and be noticed as such due to deaths. So what makes the difference? If its immunity alone i would expect pandemics to be just as "regular" as epidemics, even though global travel was more and more limited the further one goes back in time.


It took so long for us to discover Viruses in general and specifically coronaviruses, that there likely are a lot of cases thatve been missed due to the finding of other bacteria present, like the Eaton Agent. We now know that a lor of the respritory issues in covid are caused by bacterial infections in the lower respritory tract by simultaneous infections. The infection taking advantage of the conditioms created by the virus- like a mutual beneficial relationship in some ways. But because we werent able to see a virus until fairly recently in human history, if a doctor found a bacteria they likely wouldnt have even suspected there was a secondary pathogen at the root cause.

I think this aspect is the hardest to work around when Trying to piece together past pandemics based only on historical references. The reality being unless we are able to find remenant viral RNA somehow, or DNA evidence in one of the mass graves still intact enough to study, Unfortunatly it will be hard to ever know for certain.