Once saved....always saved.....Right or Wrong?

Often I hear Christians telling one another "Once saved always saved". And many believe this.... I believe I can prove this to be false with only one example but first lest take a look at the doctrine of "Once saved always saved".

Can a person’s name be erased from the Book of Life?

What Saves the Believer?

Some denominations and some Christians believe that once you are saved it is possible to lose their salvation. But what is salvation in the first place? We can believe what the Bible says above what people or churches say. Let’s review some of the scriptures that talk about salvation:

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” A literal rendering of “shall” is actually “will” so this scripture, according to the Greek, ought to read “…that whoever believes in him will not perish but has [the present indicative means they already possess] eternal life.”

Acts 16:30-31: ““Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Acts 4:12: “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

John 3:18: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

The overriding factor in our salvation is that we must believe that Jesus Christ is Who He says He is and is not tied in any way to what the believer does. We do not initiate our salvation nor do we do anything to achieve it. In fact no one really seeks after God (Rom 3:11) but it is God who seeks after us and calls us (Gal. 1:15-16). That He saves us to completion and to the uttermost is directly attributed to God. We are in no position to save ourselves. It is not about letting Jesus “come into your heart” or about thinking that “God has a wonderful plan for your life” but it is about believing in Jesus Christ. And whoever believes in Him walks in faith and accepts Him in faith. You are saved only by the grace of God and apart from yourself, it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Ephesians 2:8-9 echo this, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Easy to understand. I agree with the information above without doubt BUT there is a loophole to this doctrine, Those that reject their Christian beliefs and become atheist or non-believers do in fact loose their salvation for they no longer believe or have faith in the Christian doctrine, the Christian church and the Trinity so you can loose your salvation.

So to those who believe under no reasons can someone loose their salvation is possibly misguided....

Do you think those who were Christians but now are atheist or pagan are still saved by the one whom they rejected? Of course not.

So there is a way salvation can be lost. It can be regained if the person returns to Christ but those who had salvation based on Scriptures and later reject it are no longer in the book of Life.

Salvation is based upon your faith in Christ and you must hold onto these beliefs (close to your heart) until death...

No other faith offers true salvation like Christ does.

Thread directed at those who were Christians......not to Christians. For years many have left the church and their faith not realizing what they lost.... I pray they see their error and return to Christ. Youtube is full of exChristians explaining why they left their faith and it grows faster than Christianity itself..... the trend is rejection not acceptance.

if salvation could not be lost

we would not read in Revelation about one's name being blotted out (of the Book of Life).

Ezekiel teaches us that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for his sin, and his righteousness will not be remembered.

salvation--accepting Jesus as Lord--is a willful, conscious act. such acts can be changed.

AMEN

originally posted by: ElGoobero
if salvation could not be lost

we would not read in Revelation about one's name being blotted out (of the Book of Life).

Ezekiel teaches us that if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for his sin, and his righteousness will not be remembered.

salvation--accepting Jesus as Lord--is a willful, conscious act. such acts can be changed.

Reminds me of Southern Baptists ...ugh.


The lazy mans way to salvation.

Nah, no way I would bet my eternal soul on that doctrine.

I agree....

originally posted by: Maverick1
Reminds me of Southern Baptists ...ugh.


The lazy mans way to salvation.

Nah, no way I would bet my eternal soul on that doctrine.

That is a dangerous and ridiculous notion akin to a spiritual license to kill. Those individuals who hold such a belief would literally be the evil they most likely profess to be opposed to. Their actions always justified by the infinite envelope their beliefs provide. Belief that by simply repenting one can be saved is equally flawed.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

I find much assurance in First Corinthians 3, a chapter that states:

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

"12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

Most go through the Fire, but in the end, all are saved. Rewards vary.

I am talking about the Christian doctrine of once saved always saved.......

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
I find much assurance in First Corinthians 3, a chapter that states:

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

"12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

Most go through the Fire, but in the end, all are saved. Rewards vary.

Romans 11 with the olive tree parable appears to support this premise. you can be cut out of the tree of life if you fall away from Christianity.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
I am talking about the Christian doctrine of once saved always saved.......

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
I find much assurance in First Corinthians 3, a chapter that states:

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

"12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

Most go through the Fire, but in the end, all are saved. Rewards vary.

What I posted bears on the subject, whether you see it or not.

I understand you.....simply looking for clarity so there be no confusion. Why in a short while a new thread comes talking exactly about what you posted with clarity.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
I am talking about the Christian doctrine of once saved always saved.......

originally posted by: Lazarus Short
I find much assurance in First Corinthians 3, a chapter that states:

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

"12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."

Most go through the Fire, but in the end, all are saved. Rewards vary.

What I posted bears on the subject, whether you see it or not.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

What Does the Bible Say About ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’? (Bible Questions Answered)

Does the Bible Teach ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’?

The Bible’s answer

No, it does not teach the doctrine of ‘once saved, always saved.’ A person who has gained salvation by faith in Jesus Christ can lose that faith and the salvation that comes with it. The Bible says that maintaining faith requires great effort, a “hard fight.” (Jude 3, 5) Early Christians who had already accepted Christ were told: “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”​—Philippians 2:​12.

Bible verses that disprove the teaching of ‘once saved, always saved’

- The Bible warns against serious sins that will keep a person from entering God’s Kingdom. (1 Corinthians 6:​9-​11; Galatians 5:​19-​21) If salvation could not be lost, such warnings would be meaningless. Instead, the Bible shows that someone who has been saved can fall away by returning to a practice of serious sin. For example, Hebrews 10:26 states: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.”​—Hebrews 6:​4-6; 2 Peter 2:​20-​22.

- Jesus emphasized the importance of maintaining faith by giving an illustration in which he likened himself to a vine and his followers to branches on that vine. Some of them would at one time demonstrate faith in him by their fruits, or actions, yet would later fail to do so and be “thrown out like a [fruitless] branch,” losing their salvation. (John 15:​1-6) The apostle Paul used a similar illustration, saying that Christians who do not maintain their faith “will be lopped off.”​—Romans 11:17-​22.

- Christians are commanded to “keep on the watch.” (Matthew 24:42; 25:13) Those who fall asleep spiritually, whether by practicing “works belonging to darkness” or by not fully performing the works that Jesus commanded, lose their salvation.​—Romans 13:11-​13; Revelation 3:​1-3.

- Many scriptures show that those who have been saved must still endure faithfully to the end. (Matthew 24:13; Hebrews 10:36; 12:​2, 3; Revelation 2:​10) First-century Christians expressed joy when they learned that fellow believers were enduring in their faith. (1 Thessalonians 1:​2, 3; 3 John 3, 4) Does it seem reasonable that the Bible would stress faithful endurance if those who did not endure would be saved anyway?

- Only when his death was imminent did the apostle Paul feel that his salvation was assured. (2 Timothy 4:​6-8) Earlier in his life, he recognized that he could still miss out on salvation if he gave in to fleshly desires. He wrote: “I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.”​—1 Corinthians 9:​27; Philippians 3:​12-​14.

During the Reformation, what were the fundamental points that divided the Protestants from the Roman Catholics? According to Luther, there were three. First, Luther believed that salvation results from “justification by faith alone” (Latin, sola fide)* and not from priestly absolution or works of penance. (*: Luther was so insistent on the concept of “justification by faith alone” that in his translation of the Bible, he added the word “alone” to Romans 3:28. He was also suspicious of the book of James for its statement that “faith without works is dead.” (James 2:17, 26) He failed to recognize that in Romans, Paul was speaking of works of the Jewish Law.​—Romans 3:19, 20, 28.) Second, he taught that forgiveness is granted solely because of God’s grace (sola gratia) and not by the authority of priests or popes. Finally, Luther contended that all doctrinal matters are to be confirmed by Scripture only (sola scriptura) and not by popes or church councils.

In spite of this, Luther, says The Catholic Encyclopedia, “retained as much of the ancient beliefs and liturgy as could be made to fit into his peculiar views on sin and justification.” The Augsburg Confession* states regarding the Lutheran faith that “there is nothing that is discrepant with the Scriptures, or with the Church Catholic, or even with the Roman Church, so far as that Church is known from writers.” In fact, the Lutheran faith, as outlined in the Augsburg Confession, included such unscriptural doctrines as the Trinity, immortal soul, and eternal torment, as well as such practices as infant baptism and church holidays and feasts. On the other hand, the Lutherans demanded certain changes, such as that the people be allowed to receive both wine and bread at Communion and that celibacy, monastic vows, and compulsory confession be abolished. (*: In 1530, at the Diet of Augsburg, an effort was made by the emperor to mend the differences between the two parties. The Lutherans presented their beliefs in a document, the Augsburg Confession, composed by Philipp Melanchthon but based on Luther’s teachings. Although the document was most conciliatory in tone, the Roman Church rejected it, and the rift between Protestantism and Catholicism became irreconcilable. Many German states sided with Luther, and the Scandinavian states soon followed suit.)

Just remember:

Certainly, the handiest trick of the propagandist is the use of outright lies. Consider, for example, the lies that Martin Luther wrote in 1543 about the Jews in Europe: “They have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnaped children . . . They are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil who sting and work harm.” His exhortation to so-called Christians? “Set fire to their synagogues or schools . . . Their houses [should] also be razed and destroyed.”

Source: The Manipulation of Information (Awake!—2000)

Not exactly a man you want to be taking your teachings from.

A Look at Martin Luther (Awake!—1972)

...
Luther failed to perceive from the teachings of the Scriptures that Christians are to be neutral in the political affairs of the world and that they are not to participate in warfare. Jesus told his followers that they were “no part of the world.” (John 15:19) He also counseled them against the use of the sword when he said that “all those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matt. 26:52) Furthermore, it is written at 2 Corinthians 10:4 that “the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly.”

Despite these and other scriptures on these points, as well as the historical record showing that the early Christians did not engage in military warfare, Luther did not disapprove of the use of the sword. He viewed a person who abstained from military service as worthy of a death sentence. When the peasants revolted, he urged the civil authorities to “stab, kill and strangle” them. Is that what Jesus Christ would have done?

Manifesting the same intolerant and violent spirit of the Catholic church, Luther and his followers approved the use of the sword against the peaceful Anabaptists because they held religious viewpoints different from theirs. Luther’s close associate, Melanchthon, argued that even the passive action of the Anabaptists in rejecting government, oaths, private property and marriage outside their faith was seditious and therefore punishable by death. Certainly the Christian Bible writers never advocated that Christians kill anyone who rejected an article of faith.

Since the days of Luther the Lutheran church has been closely allied with the political governments of the world. When these governments have become embroiled in a war, the members of this church have not hesitated to pick up the sword to kill those classed as political enemies by these powers, even when it meant killing fellow Lutherans. This was particularly evident during World War II when German Lutherans in support of the Nazis fought fellow Lutherans in other countries. How contrary this is to true Christianity and to Jesus’ statement, “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves”! (John 13:35) History makes it clear that Christ’s followers in the first century were pursuers of peace, not wielders of the sword.​—1 Pet. 3:11.

...

Luther Fights Then Compromises (1956)

this seems to be one of the best tools to drive recruitment in different circles. If you us the Bible as more of a guide, than a history lesson, you find that it's teachings are that of mostly common sense, and if you look at it from that perspective, you see a loving God who accepts anyone who also accepts him. I sure don't know the answers, but then, none of us do. So to have anyone offer something definitive about what God wants, seems disingenuous.

Our own personal beliefs are the only thing that matters with our own relationship with God. IMHO) Those who do believe, have a faith that isn't something easy to convey to others. Life experience is usually what leads one to truly believe in our Creator.
Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they wish. I don't believe that God requires me to do anything other than love and respect him, for him to offer the same to me. I share that with my family and children, and leave them to make their own decisions as their life experience guides them.

And I think God recognizes the fakers. he knows what's in your heart. And like Santa, he knows if you have been bad or good.

Though I disagree with letting small children under 14 to figure out what to believe about God. IMO I believe the head of the house is responsible for teaching his/her loved ones of the Gospel.

originally posted by: network dude
this seems to be one of the best tools to drive recruitment in different circles. If you us the Bible as more of a guide, than a history lesson, you find that it's teachings are that of mostly common sense, and if you look at it from that perspective, you see a loving God who accepts anyone who also accepts him. I sure don't know the answers, but then, none of us do. So to have anyone offer something definitive about what God wants, seems disingenuous.

Our own personal beliefs are the only thing that matters with our own relationship with God. IMHO) Those who do believe, have a faith that isn't something easy to convey to others. Life experience is usually what leads one to truly believe in our Creator.
Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they wish. I don't believe that God requires me to do anything other than love and respect him, for him to offer the same to me. I share that with my family and children, and leave them to make their own decisions as their life experience guides them.

And I think God recognizes the fakers. he knows what's in your heart. And like Santa, he knows if you have been bad or good.

originally posted by: network dude
this seems to be one of the best tools to drive recruitment in different circles. If you us the Bible as more of a guide, than a history lesson, you find that it's teachings are that of mostly common sense, and if you look at it from that perspective, you see a loving God who accepts anyone who also accepts him. I sure don't know the answers, but then, none of us do. So to have anyone offer something definitive about what God wants, seems disingenuous.

“He has told you, O earthling man, what is good. And what is Jehovah asking back from you but to exercise justice and to love kindness and to be modest in walking with your God?” (Micah 6:8)

So how has God done that?

Through the pages of the Bible your Creator speaks to you. He tells you what he has done in times past and what he has purposed to do in the future. He gives you sound counsel and wise instruction for guiding you in the way that is best for you. Since he is far wiser than any human, what he says is worthy of your closest attention. If you listen to him, his written Word can be for you a book of life. “My son, my law do not forget, and my commandments may your heart observe, because length of days and years of life and peace will be added to you.”—Prov. 3:1, 2.

“For all things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.”—Rom. 15:4.

The rewards for studying God’s Word are great, but they cannot be had without effort. Many hours of reading, along with deep concentration and meditation, are necessary. This is unpleasant to frivolously minded persons whose reading is never heavier than picture magazines, newspapers and paperback novels. Because they are unwilling to exert themselves and dig into the deep things of God’s Word they fail to find the treasures of wisdom that are there for those willing to make the effort to get them. “If, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God.” (Prov. 2:3-5) That requires study. What can happen when it is lacking and God’s Word is neglected is seen in Jehovah’s covenant people of ancient times.

The king of Jehovah’s covenant people was required to have a copy of God’s law and to read it repeatedly throughout his life. By following its guidance he would be able to lead his subjects in the way that would be best for them. His regular studying of Jehovah’s law was in the national interests as well as his own. “It must occur that when he takes his seat on the throne of his kingdom, he must write in a book for himself a copy of this law from that which is in the charge of the priests, the Levites. And it must continue with him, and he must read in it all the days of his life, in order that he may learn to fear Jehovah his God so as to keep all the words of this law and these regulations by doing them.”—Deut. 17:18, 19.

Most of the kings who ruled Jehovah’s chosen people ignored this command. They failed to study the divine Word and to follow the guidance of its wise counsel. Relying upon their own wisdom, they led the people in the very way God warned them not to go. They foolishly turned from the path of obedience to God and sank into the stinking mire of idolatry. “They kept walking in the statutes of the nations whom Jehovah had driven out from before the sons of Israel, and in the statutes of the kings of Israel that they had made; and the sons of Israel went searching into the things that were not right toward Jehovah their God and kept building themselves high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen clear to the fortified city; and they kept setting up for themselves sacred pillars and sacred poles upon every high hill and under every luxuriant tree; and there on all the high places they continued to make sacrificial smoke the same as the nations whom Jehovah had taken into exile because of them, and they kept doing bad things to offend Jehovah.”—2 Ki. 17:8-11.

Like the many kings who did not search out the wise instructions and protective counsel of the Scriptures, the Levitical priesthood in general neglected them. Failing to feed their minds upon the spiritually nourishing truths Jehovah provided them, they became empty-headed like the dumb idols they foolishly worshiped. They saw nothing wrong with playing a double role as priests of Jehovah and priests of the despicable idols and the abominable high places. “‘For both the prophet and the priest themselves have become polluted. Also in my own house I have found their badness,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” (Jer. 23:11)

Coming back to Romans 15:4 and the phrase concerning “all things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction”. Among the things written aforetime for our benefit are the series of prophetic parallels between Bible times and our day. For example, Jesus stated that just as it was in the days of Noah and Lot so it would be at the time of his second presence. (Matt. 24:3, 37-39; Luke 17:26-30, NW) The destruction of ancient Babylon foreshadowed the destruction of a modern powerful oppressive organization also termed Babylon. (Jer. 51:6-10; Rev. 18:4) And so we also find a parallel between an apostate people of God, Israel, and Christendom, which likewise has apostatized.

Because of the unfaithfulness of the nation of Israel Jehovah God purposed to end its sovereignty and to desolate its land for seventy years. Before executing that judgment, however, Jehovah sent prophets who rebuked them for their wickedness and warned them of impending disaster, even as he sent Noah to warn the antediluvians of the flood and Moses to warn Pharaoh of the plagues. One of the prophets thus sent to Israel with a message concerning her guilt and doom was Ezekiel. He was among the children of Israel that were taken captive together with King Jehoiachin in 618 B.C. (2 Ki. 24:10-16) In the fifth year of this captivity Jehovah commissioned Ezekiel to act as his spokesman:

“O mortal man, I appoint you a watchman to the house of Israel; and whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall warn them from me. If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you fail to warn him—if you say nothing to warn the wicked man from his wicked way, in order to save his life—he being wicked shall die for his iniquity, but his blood will I require at your hand. If, however, you warn the wicked man, and he turn not from his wicked conduct and his wicked way, he shall die for his iniquity, but you will have saved yourself.”—Ezek. 3:17-19, AT.

One day, after Ezekiel had thus served as God’s watchman for a year and two months, a glorious angelic messenger was sent to him: “And lo! there was a form of the appearance of a man, from his loins downward of the appearance of fire, and from his loins upward of the appearance of a luster like that of shining metal.” This heavenly officer by means of visions brought Ezekiel to Jerusalem (he actually being in Babylon at the time) and there, on a tour of inspection, revealed to him the disgusting practices that were being carried on by his fellow Israelites, professed worshipers of the one true God, Jehovah.—Ezek. 8:1-3, AT.

[continued in next comment]

The first thing Ezekiel saw was the “image of resentment” standing “north of the altar-gate, at the entrance” to the inner court and which was being worshiped instead of Jehovah God. Being man-made, and replacing Jehovah as the one to be worshiped, it would provoke him to resentment and jealousy even as he had forewarned, and therefore would be appropriately called the “image of resentment”.—Ex. 20:4-6; Ezek. 8:4-6, AT.

This image or idol of resentment that Ezekiel saw was inspired by Satan the Devil and stood for or represented him as the very personification of jealousy and envy. He was jealous and envious of the worship that the first human pair gave to Jehovah God, and so he set out to estrange them from their Maker by means of slander. (Gen. 3:1-5) His offering all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus if he would do but one act of worship before him shows how greedy he was to be worshiped. (Matt. 4:9, 10, NW) And if he cannot get other creatures to worship him, he conspires to at least draw them away from the worship of his rival, Jehovah God.

To be like the Most High, Satan the Devil schemed to bring low the typical theocracy, Israel, which had its headquarters in Jerusalem. When he succeeded in causing the downfall of that nation he felt he had realized the ambition he had nursed in his heart: “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.”—Isa. 14:13, 14, AS.

In his ambition to rival Jehovah, Satan, in these last days, has raised up a substitute for God’s kingdom, which substitute arouses Jehovah, the true God, to righteous resentment. Jesus identifies this image for us in his great prophecy regarding his second presence. Therein he speaks of this image as “the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place”.—Matt. 24:15, 16, NW.

This substitute, the product of Satan’s jealousy, which is a disgusting thing in God’s sight, which arouses resentment in Jehovah God, which desolates the people’s faith in God’s kingdom and which will eventually cause their destruction, is none other than that scheme of modern man, a world association of nations, first making its appearance as the League of Nations and then as the United Nations organization. How disgusting it must have appeared to Jehovah, and how it must have filled him with resentment to note men pushing aside his kingdom and hailing these man-made instruments as “man’s only hope”, the “only light there is” and as “the political expression of the kingdom of God on earth”!

These claims by the clergy certainly have caused the people to look to human schemes and agencies and to lose sight of God’s remedy for mankind’s woes. By extolling, serving and giving their allegiance to these man-made things they have become guilty of idolatry, worshiping the work of their own hands. And those clergymen claim to follow Christ Jesus, who refused to have anything to do with the kingdoms of this world!—Isa. 2:8.

The angelic messenger next bade Ezekiel to dig a hole through the wall of the temple court, and doing so, Ezekiel came upon a door. Entering, he saw to his amazement “all sorts of loathsome forms of reptiles and beasts, together with all the idols of the house of Israel, depicted upon the wall all around. And there were seventy of the elders of the house of Israel, . . . standing in front of the pictures, each with his censer in his hand, from which rose the odor of a cloud of incense.” (Ezek. 8:10, 11, AT) Here were men claiming to be worshipers of Jehovah God and at the same time desecrating the walls of his temple with pictures of unclean animals and idols to which they burned incense. What parallels this in our day?

The great majority of clergymen in Christendom, both Catholic and Protestant, while professing to preach the Word of God, and though ordained, titled and paid to do so, teach the theory of evolution, that man is a blood relative of the lower animals, which theory flatly contradicts the Word of God. They deny special creation, that God made all creatures after their kind, even though all the evidence of geology and the operation of the laws of heredity support the Bible’s position in this matter.

So as to be considered wiser than the Bible and to gain the approval of this so-called modern, scientific, “brain-age” world, they speak disparagingly of the Bible accounts of creation, saying that Moses, in the first two chapters 1, 2 of Genesis, merely recorded the primitive, unscientific beliefs of his day, and that God had nothing to do with what he there wrote. These idolaters overlook that Jesus himself quoted from the first chapter 1 of Genesis, which he would not have done had he not considered it inspired. (Matt. 19:4-6) Thus, in their temples of religion the modern elders paint for their parishioners pictures of man owing all he has to the lower animals by means of evolution instead of to the Creator, Jehovah God, thereby engaging in a form of idolatry.

Telling Ezekiel that he would see still greater abominations, his angelic guide brought him to “the entrance of the north gate of the house of Jehovah, and there I saw women sitting and weeping over the god Tamʹmuz”. (Ezek. 8:14, NW) Tammuz was a Phoenician god, one of the demon gods provided by the Devil in his efforts to turn all men away from the worship of the only true God, Jehovah.

Do we find a weeping class of women among those professing to be Christians, the modern counterpart of the Israelites of Ezekiel’s day? Yes, we do. There are many zealous church workers, particularly fundamentalists, who, seeking to bring God into business and religion, lament the decline in the power that their religious organizations are able to exert. While claiming to worship God, they put their religious organizations first.

These earnest church workers, while professing to believe the Bible, are not interested in any of its prophecies that show that God’s kingdom is at hand. They ally themselves with the modernists and evolutionists in their support of the governments of this world as the “higher powers”, mentioned at Romans 13:1-3, as though the beastly totalitarian governments and the corrupt democracies were ordained by God. In keeping with the picture, we find that women are the strongest supporters of these religious organizations.

Continuing the inspection, the angelic messenger revealed to Ezekiel, and through him to us today, further idolatrous practices. “So he brought me to the inner courtyard of the house of Jehovah. There at the entrance of the temple of Jehovah, between the porch and the altar, were about 25 men with their backs to the temple of Jehovah and their faces to the east; they were bowing down to the sun in the east.”—Ezek. 8:16, NW.

The sun is the source of light and energy for this planet. In Ezekiel’s day those who worshiped it overlooked the fact that the sun was merely an inanimate body and that it was Jehovah God who deserved the worship and praise for the blessings the sun brought to man. Those sun worshipers back there find their parallel in the modern clergy of Christendom and their parishioners who worship the light of materialistic worldly knowledge, science, intellectuality, and who ascribe to such the credit for man’s enlightenment and blessings. Thus we find clergymen preaching on “scientific” matters, psychology, philosophy, the arts, the UNESCO; all of which emphasizes worldly wisdom and is very flattering to man but is foolishness in the sight of God.—1 Cor. 1:18-31.

Commenting on this situation, a resolution adopted by Christian ministers at a convention held at Indianapolis, Indiana, on August 29, 1925, and entitled “Message of Hope”, among other things, had the following to say: “World powers, science and philosophy, commerce and religion, . . . claim to be the sunlight of the world, holding forth all the light that shines to enlighten and guide the human race. Intrigue, duplicity, and trickery are freely resorted to by the political and commercial powers; science and philosophy are marked by vanity and self-sufficiency; while the religionists, both Catholic and Protestant, are conspicuous by their arrogance, self-conceit, impiety and ungodliness. Therefore, it is apparent that the remedies offered by any and all of these aforementioned elements are vain, impotent and powerless to satisfy man’s desires.”

In recent years there has been a great increase in lawlessness. Who is responsible for this sorry state of affairs? According to Jehovah’s Word the fault lies with the professed Christians who have turned to idolatry. “Is it too slight a thing for the house of Judah to do the abominations which they are doing here, that they must needs fill the land with lawlessness, and vex me still more?”—Ezek. 8:17, AT.

When the people note the lack of faith and conviction, the vanity, hypocrisy and greed for selfish gain on the part of their religious leaders, is it any wonder that they themselves are losing whatever regard for God’s principles of truth and righteousness they may have had, and that they have no more any fear of God before their eyes? The idolatrous practices of substituting the United Nations for God’s kingdom, and the theory of evolution for the inspired account of creation, of mourning for their man-made organizations and worshiping materialistic lights of the world, are no power of righteousness against the forces of evil visible and invisible nor against the tendencies toward sin in our mortal bodies.

Will Jehovah God always tolerate this state of affairs? Will he permit it to continue until it sinks from the weight of its own corruption, thus permitting “history to repeat itself”? No, he will not. Just as he called a halt to Israel’s wicked course in the year 607 B.C., so he will call a halt to present-day idolatrous and corrupt practices, even as he warned: “Therefore will I on my part act in fury. My eye shall not spare, nor will I pity; even though they call aloud in my hearing, I will not listen to them.”—Ezek. 8:18, AT.
Thirty Identifying Marks of False Christian Religions (playlist with context)

Wow. So many ridiculous interpretations. Not so much at the OP.

So, Jesus gets us what 80% of the way there I see.
90%
Okay let's be generous (not even addressing the JW above) 99%.....

You're all liars and decieved. Believing yourselves to be wise you've become foolish. Prideful and boastful of yourselves. Works based doctrine is disgusting.

Look how much you add to a new believers simple hope in Christ, you should be ashamed.

You all look at OSAS as an excuse to sin, that's YOUR problem. Your heart problem.

Honestly the saddest thread I've read in while. But oh well, the 'Witness' agrees with you, even from the lofty watchtower. Look how 'simple' that answer was.

Give me Christ crucified, you can keep your 'works'.....

What next, Jesus isnt God ...... That's where this leads... I'm out.


You do know that Christ seals you, yea? And once sealed you're his, right..... So then how can he deny himself?

John 3:5-6
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

According to Jesus one must be “Born again” to see/enter the Kingdom of God…

So being “Born Again” is an important aspect of being “saved”…

The key point here is that becoming “born again” only happens once, as you can’t be born of the Spirit twice…

Once it happens, that’s it!...you are now “born again”…it can’t be undone…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft
To be born again one must die first.
What has to die though?

The separate self is believed in but is there really anything separate?

“A fool will believe anything.”—PROVERBS 14:15, TODAY’S ENGLISH VERSION.

Good educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists relentlessly force you to hear their view and discourage discussion. Often their real motives are not apparent. They sift the facts, exploiting the useful ones and concealing the others. They also distort and twist facts, specializing in lies and half-truths. Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target.

How can you protect yourself from the types of people that the Bible calls “profitless talkers” and “deceivers of the mind”? (Titus 1:10) Once you are familiar with some of their tricks, you are in a better position to evaluate any message or information that comes your way. Here are some ways to do this.

Be selective: A completely open mind could be likened to a pipe that lets just anything flow through it—even sewage. No one wants a mind contaminated with poison. Solomon, a king and educator in ancient times, warned: “Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.” (Proverbs 14:15) So we need to be selective. We need to scrutinize whatever is presented to us, deciding what to accept and what to reject.

However, we do not want to be so narrow that we refuse to consider facts that can improve our thinking. How can we find the right balance? By adopting a standard with which to measure new information. Here a Christian has a source of great wisdom. He has the Bible as a sure guide for his thinking. On the one hand, his mind is open, that is, receptive to new information. He properly weighs such new information against the Bible standard and fits what is true into his pattern of thinking. On the other hand, his mind sees the danger of information that is entirely inconsistent with his Bible-based values.

Use discernment: Discernment is “acuteness of judgment.” It is “the power or faculty of the mind by which it distinguishes one thing from another.” A person with discernment perceives subtleties of ideas or things and has good judgment.

Using discernment, we will be able to recognize those who are merely using “smooth talk and complimentary speech” in order to “seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (Romans 16:18) Discernment enables you to discard irrelevant information or misleading facts and distinguish the substance of a matter. But how can you discern when something is misleading?

Put information to the test: “Beloved ones,” said John, a first-century Christian teacher, “do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions.” (1 John 4:1) Some people today are like sponges; they soak up whatever they come across. It is all too easy to absorb whatever is around us.

But it is far better for each individual personally to choose what he will feed his mind. It is said that we are what we eat, and this can apply to food for both the body and the mind. No matter what you are reading or watching or listening to, test to see whether it has propagandistic overtones or is truthful.

Moreover, if we want to be fair-minded, we must be willing to subject our own opinions to continual testing as we take in new information. We must realize that they are, after all, opinions. Their trustworthiness depends on the validity of our facts, on the quality of our reasoning, and on the standards or values that we choose to apply.

Ask questions: As we have seen, there are many today who would like to ‘delude us with persuasive arguments.’ (Colossians 2:4) Therefore, when we are presented with persuasive arguments, we should ask questions.

First, examine whether there is bias. What is the motive for the message? If the message is rife with name-calling and loaded words, why is that? Loaded language aside, what are the merits of the message itself? Also, if possible, try to check the track record of those speaking. Are they known to speak the truth? If “authorities” are used, who or what are they? Why should you regard this person—or organization or publication—as having expert knowledge or trustworthy information on the subject in question? If you sense some appeal to emotions, ask yourself, ‘When viewed dispassionately, what are the merits of the message?’

“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* [Or “healthful; beneficial.”] teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* [Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”] They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.” (2 Timothy 4:3,4)

“So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes.” (Ephesians 4:14)

“For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment* [Or “their perceptive powers.”] trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” (Hebrews 5:13,14)

For those who care what the Bible (and Jesus) has to say about the subject (rather than theologians or religious teachers who do their best to tickle the ears of their listeners):




In textformat:

Being Born Again​—The Road to Salvation?
The New Birth​—How Important?
The New Birth​—A Personal Decision?
The New Birth​—What Is Its Purpose?
The New Birth​—How Does It Take Place?
The New Birth​—What Does It Accomplish?
Rulership for Some, Benefits for Many

One final tip:

Do not just follow the crowd: If you realize that what everybody thinks is not necessarily correct, you can find the strength to think differently. While it may seem that all others think the same way, does this mean that you should? Popular opinion is not a reliable barometer of truth. Over the centuries all kinds of ideas have been popularly accepted, only to be proved wrong later. Yet, the inclination to go along with the crowd persists. The command given at Exodus 23:2 serves as a good principle: “You must not follow after the crowd for evil ends.”

True Knowledge Versus Propaganda

Previously, it was mentioned that the Bible is a sure guide for clear thinking. Jehovah’s Witnesses unequivocally subscribe to Jesus’ statement to God: “Your word is truth.” (John 17:17) This is so because God, the Author of the Bible, is “the God of truth.”—Psalm 31:5.

Yes, in this age of sophisticated propaganda, we can confidently look to Jehovah’s Word as the source of truth. Ultimately this will protect us from those who want to ‘exploit us with counterfeit words.’—2 Peter 2:3.

Just remember:

Another very successful tactic of propaganda is generalization. Generalizations tend to obscure important facts about the real issues in question, and they are frequently used to demean entire groups of people.

Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-caller’s strategy has worked.

For example, in recent years a powerful antisect sentiment has swept many countries in Europe and elsewhere. This trend has stirred emotions, created the image of an enemy, and reinforced existing prejudices against religious minorities. Often, “sect” becomes a catchword. “‘Sect’ is another word for ‘heretic,’” wrote German Professor Martin Kriele in 1993, “and a heretic today in Germany, as in former times, is [condemned to extermination]—if not by fire . . . , then by character assassination, isolation and economic destruction.”

The Institute for Propaganda Analysis notes that “bad names have played a tremendously powerful role in the history of the world and in our own individual development. They have ruined reputations, . . . sent [people] to prison cells, and made men mad enough to enter battle and slaughter their fellowmen.” Even though feelings might be irrelevant when it comes to factual claims or the logic of an argument, they play a crucial role in persuasion. Emotional appeals are fabricated by practiced publicists, who play on feelings as skillfully as a virtuoso plays the piano. Hatred is a strong emotion exploited by propagandists. Loaded language is particularly effective in triggering it. There seems to be a nearly endless supply of nasty words that promote and exploit hatred toward particular racial, ethnic, or religious groups.