what is proof exactly?

a reply to: saskwatch

Best answer I can give to the title of your thread is.

Whatever you accept as true.

Reality is subjective and so often is proof.

We claim we live in reality but every individual is different, not only are every persons own eye's slightly different from every other person but so too is there brain and the other senses that feed into it.

Someone whom is not colour blind may still see colour slightly differently to someone else that is not colour blind.

The specific nerves that you pick up vibrations from the air and recognize as sound are also slightly different to the person right next to you.

Generally our senses are close enough that we live in a shared reality were broadly speaking we recognize common ground in all our experiences.

So Proof of a UFO would be something undeniable and that fits into a common reality as proof of that thing outside of the known reality that could only be related to a UFO.

In a court case opinion and date form so called fact's and in reality since we have to live in this shared reality we have to accept fact as fact even if we suspect our reality itself may be far more complex and dynamic than we are comfortable accepting.

For me it would be a mass sighting with accompanying physical evidence such as photographic and material.

UFOs exist by their exact definition. Proof is plentiful.

If you can't identify a flying object then until it's identified it remains a UFO. There are plenty of cases to prove UFOs are real.

But that does not mean they are extra-terrestrial, and it would be foolish to jump to such a conclusion without hard data to prove such a thing beyond reasonable doubt.

If we are talking about alien spacecraft visiting Earth. Then very specific, verifiable data would be required as proof. Photos and videos won't cut it. Even radar data can be spoofed. Eye witness testimony is far from reliable.

You'd need various international scientific organizations confirming they'd detected an artificially constructed craft had entered the solar system from outer space and penetrated the Earth's atmosphere. With hard data that proved so. Which isn't straightforward. Recent evaluations of the Oumuamua object established that it .as from outside our solar system. But there was not enough data to categorically state exactly what it was. If it had come close to Earth then it would have been easier to verify. Perhaps?

a reply to: BerkshireEntity

Eye witness testimony is considered proof in a court of law, so why wouldn't it apply to UFO/et?

A UFO is just an unidentified flying object.

But there is no precedent that ET exists to establish in a court of law that an eye witness could have seen anything alien or ET.

Bringing things down to Earth, if someone says they saw a murder without other corroborating evidence, like a dead body, or a missing person report then that testimony alone would not even be heard in court.

...Some groups get criticized because they take donations or charge money to go do an outdoor event with them. I personally don't see an issue with this because, when you dedicate your life and time digging up information, doing presentations for conferences and outdoor excursions etc... Then how would you make money to continue this work at the level some of these people do?

It depends on what work and what they are promoting. If people are telling lies, faking evidence or being purposely deceptive then they deserve criticism and should be exposed for the lies.

Also his documentaries "Sirius", " Unacknowledged " (very eye opening and it discusses SAP's and USAP's (unacknowledged special access programs) its a must see for sure. And "Close encounters of the 5th kind) which is also great. People like Emery Smith, Bob Lazzar, Sargent Clifford Stone (RIP), astronaut Edgar Mitchell, Phil Schneider, David Adair, Corey Goode, Tony Rodriguez, Niera (sp?) Isley, Philip corsco, Tom Bearden, and super soldier stuff (a lot of it is secret space program related) . fact is there are a ton of whistle blowers on these subjects and other paranormal things and a lot about hidden technology. Technology which could cure people and help clean the environment and includes things like antigravitics, zero point energy, medical healing devices and meta materials.

If this stuff was secret most of those folks would be in jail (or worse) for telling their stories.

And none of them proved a thing.

a reply to: saskwatch

I have been thinking about this too. If you gave Neil DeGrasse Tyson an actual piece of an ET craft, had atomically analyzed at Batelle Institute to show that it's engineered at an atomic scale, he would still conclude that it's just the result of some top-secret project hidden from the public.

If you gave him an actual alien in front of him, he would likely conclude that it's merely an undiscovered terrestrial species.

Conclusion. There is no proof for hard-core skeptics.

originally posted by: Gothmog

"I used to want to believe"

When I was 25 and younger I believed, wanted to believed, followed it a lot. As I got older too many inconsistencies with the whole alien phenomenon keep creeping into my thought processes.

1. We are no longer closer than we were in 1940s. We are still stuck at the fuzzy pictures and eye witness reports. At some point we actually need something alien....hence my statement.

2. We just blame the lack of everything on Goverment conspiracies as to why we do not have anything to not look at the big ass elephant in the room that we really do not have anything....lol

3. When you look at the phenomenon has anyone wondered why or how does the ships keep getting more complicated? They started out as simple saucers and now they are large complicated designs, so what has evolved here, alien ships, or our imagination as we had very little in the beginning, but boy we have what 80 years to improve on it all, and we have.

4. In the end if there is aliens they are most likely not a lifeform, but self replicating AI. This makes some sense as there is something there and what we typically see isn't something a live alien would be on as in a big ship. This would also explain the lack of interaction as the AI's mission might just be to to collect data and so has no need or desire to interact. The math suggests traveling at below the speed of light it would take 2 billion years for machines to travel throughout our galaxy as they collect and send back data to a race long gone. If I was going to pick a scenario this is what I would pick.

a reply to: saskwatch

Proof is evidence or an argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.

If Aliens do exist and wish to make themselves know our respective governments could not stop them, not in the information age in which we live, so there that to consider.

originally posted by: saskwatch

so what do yall think about this? do we have a chance at disclosure? will they keep attempting to hide it for more decades? or this is all hogwash that can explained away? please discuss down below

Whilst no doubt additional information on the phenomenon is being withheld by TPTB I believe there are individuals who frequent this forum that have more of a clue as to it's nature.

Disclosure of the information will not explain that nature, unless you are ready to believe whatever spin is trotted out with it.

If you want to work towards that understanding then immerse yourself in the research but be aware it is a dangerous path and you will not reach a definitive answer in your lifetime.

At some point during that research you will also find you need to define alien presence and then separate some of those definitions from the bulk of the phenomenon. UFO doesn't necessarily mean ET.

When the aliens land in my back yard for a BBQ, I will get some pictures of them eating at the picnic table and some selfies with my arm around them.....hopefully they are not eating my arm as the picture is being uploaded. Hopefully they are not eating us at the table.

Governments have far more knowledge about many of these programs than you'll ever find out about. A lot of the issues here revolve around secrecy around new technology and weapons. A great many sitings in the late1980s to the early 2000s were simply tests of UAVs by the USA and numerous other countries. Sometimes those UAVs captured on film were from other countries flying over US airspace. If you honestly think any government would be willing to publicly admit this then you might be a little nuts.

All that said, I've mentioned on here before the core problem with aliens is that at a certain point in the government you hit a wall where you learn that keeping your mouth shut to the general public is truly in the best interest in the world. Honestly Men In Black (the original film) was accurate when Agent K said "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.". This is honestly why people are personally and directly investigated and vetted before they learn any of the real inner workings of the government. These are not politicians you see in the news, the President, a majority of the alphabet soup, etc. These are the career civil servants that are almost always on TDY with virtually limitless freedom of mobility along with credit cards without limits. I've seen quite a bit, I know there's even more out there, and I am absolutely sure that 99% of humanity could not even grasp what is actually going on in the world.

That's the Doubting Thomas syndrome. The vast majority of people will not believe till they can put their finger in the hole. Knowing is a subjective and personal thing.
As for the military, come on use your intelligence, they know there is something to it and want the "technology" for themselves. If the could weaponize a fart they would do. By their nature UFOs are elusive and to prove they really exist would be to capture, see one repeatedly with certainty and accuracy in the same place, which will not happen.
And I'll say again what makes people think they come from "out there".

Have you ever tried taking pictures of a bird in flight? That's flying at 20km, 40km? Going at incredible speeds?
Furthermore, the moon is #ing huge but my phone can't take a decent picture of it because zoom sucks on camera phones, the only camera I carry.
This argument is borderline retarded, not you, just the line of logic. There are TONS of pictures out there and video, including video released by my, the United States Government. They only barely managed to "lock" it with the most sophisticated technology available.

So yeah,
Good luck with that.

originally posted by: KansasGirl
a reply to: saskwatch

Using your same argument: for decades we’ve had great cameras and camcorders and for the last couple of decades, phones with cameras and video-recorders on them, and still we have nothing but blurry and questionable photos and videos of “craft.” And no pictures or videos of ET. With the number of people around the world all these years, shouldn’t we have one or two clear undeniable photos or videos of ET or ET craft?? So why don’t we?

originally posted by: BerkshireEntity
a reply to: saskwatch

Eye witness testimony is considered proof in a court of law, so why wouldn't it apply to UFO/et?

No, it's not considered proof. It's admissible as evidence, but not considered proof because it's now known to be unreliable and you generally need some other kind of evidence to get a conviction for any serious crime nowadays.

Eyewitness Testimony

Despite the frequency of use, we have been confronted as a country with many incredible failures of eyewitness testimony such as misidentifications that led to convictions and sentences of people who were later discovered innocent.1 Science has played no small role: post-conviction DNA profiling made possible by the development of the polymerase chain reaction, which enables amplification of crime-scene DNA to quantities sufficient for forensic analysis have meant that DNA identification is becoming increasingly used even in cases where it was previously not viable: those where we have smaller samples.2 As of now, almost 350 people, many serving long prison sentences, have been exonerated because their own DNA was discovered to be incompatible with evidence long ago collected from the crime scene. Many more sit in prisons who have not had the opportunity to have their cases re-investigated or samples re-tested. In about 70% of these cases, misidentification by one or more eyewitnesses contributed significantly as evidence for conviction.

originally posted by: Hecate666
Boy, your military and all pilots must be so much dumber than you, and they are in charge of large planes and nuclear weapons.

Military pilot Chad Underwood, I think he's just pretending to be dumb when he says the Tic-Tac shaped UFO in his FLIR video didn't follow the normal laws of physics, because of some apparently insane acceleration at the end of the video. A proper analysis shows that's just an illusion caused by target lock being broken, and I hope he knows that. As to why he's making up this story about it breaking the laws of physics, I'm hypothesizing someone asked him to tell a "story" to do his patriotic part to help national security in some way by promoting "UFO-defying-the-laws-of-physics" hype. We do have this after all from the Snowden leaks:

Which shouldn't be any surprise after the CIA director said this:

Some people actually believe the lies and believe Chad Underwood because, he's a pilot who is supposedly infallible, but moreover I think anybody who has analytical skills and analyzes the video for themselves don't need to trust or not trust what Underwood says, they can tell through independent analysis of the video what it does or doesn't show in terms of acceleration or defying the laws of physics. Unfortunately, many people seem to lack such skills, or don't bother to analyze the video themselves, like Mick West did, and like I have done.

Navy Pilot Who Filmed the ‘Tic Tac’ UFO Speaks: ‘It Wasn’t Behaving by the Normal Laws of Physics’

Here's a proper analysis of the video explaining why the acceleration Underwood mentions is an illusion.

Did the FLIR1 UFO actually make sudden moves? (Underwood Response)

Best to apply for their jobs with your superior knowledge. They'll snatch you up.

I don't know if Chad Underwood is pretending to be dumb and intentionally lying. He doesn't sound dumb in the other things he talks about. But if I have to pretend to be dumb and tell lies to have his job, I don't want it. I do know he's completely wrong about the UFO he recorded accelerating or breaking the laws of physics, it doesn't do either in his video.

a reply to: saskwatch

Here's my stab at defining one type of proof of ETI contact --- verifiable astronomical information guaranteed to not have come from any human being.

www.jamesoberg.com...

originally posted by: BerkshireEntity
a reply to: saskwatch

Eye witness testimony is considered proof in a court of law, so why wouldn't it apply to UFO/et? ...

Simple. The trial testimony is to determine which human being performed an act whose existence is undeniable -- a CRIME was committed. The proof of that crime's reality is the STARTING point of the trial, not the conclusion of it.

originally posted by: BerkshireEntity
a reply to: saskwatch

..... People like Emery Smith, Bob Lazzar, Sargent Clifford Stone (RIP), astronaut Edgar Mitchell, Phil Schneider, David Adair, Corey Goode, Tony Rodriguez, Niera (sp?) Isley, Philip corsco, Tom Bearden, and super soldier stuff (a lot of it is secret space program related) . fact is there are a ton of whistle blowers on these subjects and other paranormal things and a lot about hidden technology. Technology which could cure people and help clean the environment and includes things like antigravitics, zero point energy, medical healing devices and meta materials.

I know I'm gonna get a lot of crap because of the people I listed above. I've done many many hours of research and find these people and many others very credible despite the governments professional " debunkers" and disinformation agents and people that believe we are the only intelligent conscious beings in our Galaxy. v

Where did Ed Mitchell ever report any UFO experience, I must have missed it -- or did you just imagine it?

Proof certainly has different levels, depending on where you want to stop when you're presented with evidence. My old list for UFO proof:

1. Multiple images (photos/videos/radar) that show the object in question from different perspectives, taken by different people who don't know each other, and none of them are anonymous. You would be amazed at how many UFO reports can't get past this first level. Most of them, actually.

2. Some kind of physical object (to possibly include an alien body) that is directly connected to the sighting by an unbroken chain of evidence.

3. Multiple completely independent experts examining the object and determining that it is indeed not from Earth, and showing exactly why that is the case.

4. Acknowledged social and political leaders -- including recognized skeptics -- who agree that the experts are right and that we're dealing with actual aliens. President, Pope, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, etc.

5. The opportunity -- should I work toward it or have it made available to me -- for me to personally look at the object or touch it with my own grubby fingers. Probably never get to this level, but hey, it would be nice.

It seems like a lot at first, but this is actually no different than proving the existence of anything, from the Eiffel Tower to the chair you're sitting on right now -- if we were not sure these things existed. If the existence of cats was in question, how could you prove to me that they exist or that you have one?

Sure, you can stop at the images or the stories if you want. Maybe that's all the proof you require. But I need at least a little more verification.

a reply to: Blue Shift

That's a nice list and I'd fully subscribe to your point of view.

The evidence for UFOs is weak and ambiguous. Unless everything "tangible" is hidden away and only accessible to a select few. And one would assume that's almost as difficult to believe.

Then again, there are odd similarities of strange aspects pertaining to UFOs. Their bizarre behaviour, for example, like erratic maneuvers, observed colors, shapes, sounds, EM effects and so on.

Similar things have been reported by witnesses from all continents over many decades, by engineers, pilots, scientists, politicians, celebrities and of course "Average Joe". True, there's also a lot of variety in UFO reports, with many differences, misidentifications and obvious scam. But certain bizarre patterns that have repeatedly been reported throughout UFO history do stand out in a way.

In the end, though, there's not much to go by in terms of proof. Some weak evidence, lots of reports and witnesses, but still nothing tangible to show. As a result, the discussion of UFOs today is one of metaphysics and religion rather than science.

Hopefully that will change one day, but as things stand, there currently is no commonly accepted proof for UFOs. Which of course doesn't mean the phenomenon doesn't exist...

a reply to: Xtrozero
5. No way a ship, of the size reported could generate enough energy to travel any length of "extraterrestrial" distance .

That one realization did it for me.
E=MC^2
It's science.

Money is almost certain to be the one thing that drives any given operation. And there are trillions to be made in black ops tech and extraterrestrial and extradimensional technology so the idea that they wouldn't just be wading in waist deep oceans of their own drool.

With that said, I do play devil's advocate once in a while when it comes to a certain claim which is very very rare amongst supposed whistle-blowers and when someone does make the claim, they never seem to share with us the main point, they don't know the details of it, or they claim that it revolves around the terrifying fact that the grays are not extraterrestrial aliens but human time travelers who are from our distant distant future when an evolutionary turn has left them grotesque and nonhuman. The problem I have with this is that it infers such a scope of evolution which would take hundreds of thousands if not millions of years and as tiny adaptations occurred, they would just become the norm and so however they ended up looking, that would be the normal and accepted look to their generations. They wouldn't look back to homo habikis, homo erectus, denisovan, etc. coming to homosapien and stopping saying ohhhhhh, this totally foreign looking entity is what I wish we still were. We're a disaster!

So think about it having removed that silly explanation removed about time travelers or the main one, that it's centered around riches and power by controlling info and tech...

Consider that, as a number of people have said, they brought with them some piece of information, perhaps about the nature of life or the reason for existence and it turned out to be the truth and is so incredibly impossible to accept and a so horrifying a fact explaining what all of this really is that the whistle-blowers who DO know what that information is echo their supposed superiors and those who made the decision to classify all material regarding the phenomena and say categorically, without question, hands down, there isn't a person out there who would ever want to know what that information is and no matter how much they believe they could take it and reconcile with what it is, nobody could handle the truth and so it would indeed being the world to a screeching, meaningless, violent halt.

I don't know what exactly it is that we could ever find out to turn life and the universe into the most hopeless, nightmare and inescapable evil imaginable...or likely unimaginable as it would be something never even before considered. I don't know what I believe about this theory but my gosh it has this terrors of the unknown quality to it that it is the kind of story I bet HP Lovecraft would be telling if he were an author of today. I get a very impending doom, Cthululic uneasiness thinking about it....

originally posted by: Gothmog

5. No way a ship, of the size reported could generate enough energy to travel any length of "extraterrestrial" distance .

That one realization did it for me.
E=MC^2
It's science.

Ya math is funny like that...

That is where folding space/time such as warp drive etc comes into play. We really can't go the speed of light which is still too slow for life to travel, and that is the point people do not want to understand that space is HUGE. Even if we went 99.99999999% the speed of light to not turn into a singularity one year to us on the space ship would be about 70,000 years back on earth...lol

Gets very strange and unworkable for life in general unless you can go outside space/time etc... This is why I suggest AI doesn't care as time in general doesn't effect it as it does to life.