Israeli researchers announce discovery of new Dead Sea scroll fragments

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Interesting to see if they match the current Bible, or if any text was changed by "the church" thousands of years after it was written.

Also interesting to see if any passages can be re-translated with additional clarifications.

when the very basis of the state of Israel is based on the book then I'm beginning to take every so called 'find' with a very large grain of salt

So you are saying...you don’t believe anything written down in a history book or are you saying you just don’t believe in any books that are detailing Hebrew history?

What’s interesting about Hebrew history, it’s dirty, dark, horrible in places and doesn’t hide any of the faults and failures of their own society or history
It exposes every evil deed, every evil king, every failed prophet, judge and goes into great detail about its societies corruption
And
You think it’s faked
Interesting

I don’t think any other historical source is so self condemning, so honest, so genuine, even today

But books, so dumb aren’t they

a reply to: Raggedyman

What I am saying is there has been a plan since the beginning of the 20th century to gain a base in the holy land by means of Zionism. Therefore everything that can give legitimacy to the newly created State of Israel, especially historical finds that back up the rights to that land will be placed in view of the world and promoted as it fits the bill. The Israeli's are really good at this and have really promoted their rightful ownership of the land through writing the history of the land through these finds, I mean there are loads of museums to back up the propaganda full of historical finds that back up the story.

I'm not denying that this find is actually old and historic, who knows what it is we are just being given a story, just pointing out that if it fits the bill it will be promoted in a fantastic museum housing and gives added legitimacy the State of Israel experiment. One can only wonder what finds are not actually promoted and squirrelled away out of plain sight.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Ah, I see, kinda like in the bible where it talks about Joshua and his army clearing out all the peoples, cultures and communities from Israel before the Hebrews made it their home

Like how the bible explains how the Hebrews conquered and removed the original tenants of that country before they claimed it
How the bible states exactly what you suggest it doesn’t say.

Isn’t that what history explains of all cultures, the US and the natives there, Australia and the indigenous.
Jewish history is not hidden, not saying they havnt hidden stuff recently but, historically, it’s pretty clear they were the invaders of that land

a reply to: Raggedyman

Err..................... Last time I checked this is a conspiracy site yeah?

Just bringing a questioning angle into this thread, while t the same time thanks to Gortex for posting it on ATS He's been on good form recently bringing up some excellent stuff of real interest

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
a reply to: Raggedyman

What I am saying is there has been a plan since the beginning of the 20th century

You should really educate yourself on the history of Zionism and Israel.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Err..........yeah, just can’t see a conspiracy and questioning your reasoning
It’s a forum, thought that was the point

I am not defending Israel or Zionism, think they are just as evil as everyone else
Just don’t think the bible paints the Hebrew people as angelic, awesome, holy and benevolent people

The “book”, their own scriptures, their own historical narrative, it’s pretty condemning of Israel and the Hebrews
Think you missed that part out

a reply to: butcherguy

The info is not useful. It's just religious jibberish. No value in it. Now it it was info on historical figures, events, science then yes but the scrolls are just whining about religion.

originally posted by: jjkenobi

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Interesting to see if they match the current Bible, or if any text was changed by "the church" thousands of years after it was written.

Also interesting to see if any passages can be re-translated with additional clarifications.

The church didn’t exist till after Jesus
The Old Testament is the Jewish scriptures, they existed before christianity, it’s not christian doctrine
It’s Jewish, minor prophets Nahum and Zechariah, historical Jewish literature
These books were written centuries before the church existed

Yes, exactly. That is all true, and goes with what I'm saying. Since the Scriptures pre-date "the church" that is what allowed "the church" to come along much later and decide what books to be included in the Bible, and how words and phrases were translated. See Council of Nicea. Finding originals that predate this activity could shed light on what was possibly changed or "mis-translated", whether on purpose on not.

Actually it was the later Council of Laodicea that canonized scripture. Nicea dealt with the controversy of whether or not the teachings of Arius of Alexandria were heretical.

originally posted by: JohnnyAnonymous
a reply to: gortex

That's quite amazing that they are still able to find fragments from these scrolls.

I wonder why they didn't refer to the Hebrew God's name in the article... and I wonder if it's the same name that was revealed to Moses as four Hebrew consonants (YHWH) called the tetragrammaton?

Love Archeology, great find Gortex!
Johnny

The then accepted name Yahweh refers to the God of the Israelites, the universal meaning, Elohim, replaced Yahweh by virtue of being universal in Judaism, rather than the local Israelites. So perhaps it is Elohim regardless of where the mention sourced in this new find?

a reply to: smurfy

So perhaps it is Elohim

That would be my suspicion mate.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: jjkenobi

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Interesting to see if they match the current Bible, or if any text was changed by "the church" thousands of years after it was written.

Also interesting to see if any passages can be re-translated with additional clarifications.

The church didn’t exist till after Jesus
The Old Testament is the Jewish scriptures, they existed before christianity, it’s not christian doctrine
It’s Jewish, minor prophets Nahum and Zechariah, historical Jewish literature
These books were written centuries before the church existed

Yes, exactly. That is all true, and goes with what I'm saying. Since the Scriptures pre-date "the church" that is what allowed "the church" to come along much later and decide what books to be included in the Bible, and how words and phrases were translated. See Council of Nicea. Finding originals that predate this activity could shed light on what was possibly changed or "mis-translated", whether on purpose on not.

So the council of Nicaea canonised the bible, interesting

Except the Syriac Orthodox, the Ethiopian Orthodox etc, those are simply in complete agreement, neither of those ancient church's the Syriac or Church of James or Antioch in the east is the oldest continuous Christian church that has not been broken for a time, the Syriac Bible as far as can be gone back is so similar and accepts the same book's that today most of the Church other than a small and possibly now extinct independent faction joined the Catholic Church since they held the same traditions pretty much point for point and an ancient argument with the Orthodox whom tried to bully them despite them being the actually older church left them not liking the Byzantine church too much for a very long time.

Interestingly they wrote and still hold there service in Aramaic the day to day language of Judaea at the time of the gospel's.

Other book's that were independently preserved in another language, Ethiopian also agree on most things though they are closer to the Orthodox community, the Three eldest are the Syriac - Syria being a kingdom independent of the Roman empire was the first nation to adopt Christianity as it's state religion (before the Arab's invaded about half a millennium later and first murdered then taxed those that refused to join Islam and in recent times Isis tried to finish this ancient church off completely though there are some Syriac orthodox community's in other nations now as there people have been forced to leave there ancient homeland), the second probably being Ethiopia which arose out of Ethiopian Jews adopting Christianity very early on and the third oldest probably being the Coptic church, pretty much all around the same time.

In the rest of the Roman empire the OLD church lasted until Constantine whom then used it as his state religion and was morphed into something other than it had been by this, in the west it collapsed almost completely with the fall of Rome but continued in Byzantium and in remote outposts were Ascetic and Isolationist hermit monk's had set up such as the island were the film the last Jedi was made that actually being a very important site in the history of western Christianity (Skellig Michael though it is really Irish many claim that the saving illuminated manuscript was from one of the English Islands and others say it was from Skellig Michael but either way it was taken there by monk's styling themselves as English missionary's) despite being unpopulated today, illuminated manuscript's were created there including the preserved Nicean bible which s then later taken back to Rome and used to Re-Convert and educate the by that time Semi Pagan church of Rome back into a Christian church an arduous task that took rather longer than western church historians would like to admit.

There are other original texts that were left out, many of them are just to hard to integrate and others are simply lost, one of them the so called book of Enoch has been found in both the dead sea site and also intact in the Ethiopian Orthodox church while it was lost to most of the rest of the Christian and Judaic world until it's rediscovery by the other church's and western scholars.



Peter Vlars answer is more accurate than this, I miss some major historical point's and am not as schooled so?..

(And really speaking the Catholic Church should have Joined the Syriac Orthodox not the other way around since the Syriac is the older and therefore arguably senior except for the whole founded by St Peter argument (and Rome having to be RE-founded by those Christian missionary's that went from England's distant isolated island monastery's to take that illuminated manuscript to them along with intact traditions that they had lost after the Goth's) which actually pertains to more than just Rome and yet the Syriac is know as the church of James because he is the apostle whom found that one BUT arguably they were both founded by Christ so?).

Here is our Lords Prayer in Syrian Aramaic, there is another version in Jewish Aramaic but since that language was dead for nearly two millennium and the two languages were almost identical this is probably closer to the original than the Later recreation by modern scholars of what the Judean Aramaic prayer sounded like.

Abwoon - Aboon is more loving than simply Our Father being Closer to our Revered and Beloved father.


They have clung to this despite fierce persecution since the time of James the Apostle only for a group of terrorists funded by some claim western intelligence agency's to overthrow Assad to nearly wipe them out.

Here in I believe a recreation of Judean Aramaic which may be more accurate to the language Jesus spoke and is actually still almost identical to the Syriac Orthodox Aramaic.

originally posted by: LABTECH767

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: jjkenobi

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Interesting to see if they match the current Bible, or if any text was changed by "the church" thousands of years after it was written.

Also interesting to see if any passages can be re-translated with additional clarifications.

The church didn’t exist till after Jesus
The Old Testament is the Jewish scriptures, they existed before christianity, it’s not christian doctrine
It’s Jewish, minor prophets Nahum and Zechariah, historical Jewish literature
These books were written centuries before the church existed

Yes, exactly. That is all true, and goes with what I'm saying. Since the Scriptures pre-date "the church" that is what allowed "the church" to come along much later and decide what books to be included in the Bible, and how words and phrases were translated. See Council of Nicea. Finding originals that predate this activity could shed light on what was possibly changed or "mis-translated", whether on purpose on not.

So the council of Nicaea canonised the bible, interesting

Except the Syriac Orthodox, the Ethiopian Orthodox etc, those are simply in complete agreement, neither of those ancient church's the Syriac or Church of James or Antioch in the east is the oldest continuous Christian church that has not been broken for a time, the Syriac Bible as far as can be gone back is so similar and accepts the same book's that today most of the Church other than a small and possibly now extinct independent faction joined the Catholic Church since they held the same traditions pretty much point for point and an ancient argument with the Orthodox whom tried to bully them despite them being the actually older church left them not liking the Byzantine church too much for a very long time.

Interestingly they wrote and still hold there service in Aramaic the day to day language of Judaea at the time of the gospel's.

Other book's that were independently preserved in another language, Ethiopian also agree on most things though they are closer to the Orthodox community, the Three eldest are the Syriac - Syria being a kingdom independent of the Roman empire was the first nation to adopt Christianity as it's state religion, the second probably being Ethiopia which arose out of Ethiopian Jews adopting Christianity very early on and the third oldest probably being the Coptic church, pretty much all around the same time.

In the rest of the Roman empire the OLD church lasted until Constantine whom then used it as his state religion and was morphed into something other than it had been by this, in the west it collapsed almost completely with the fall of Rome but continued in Byzantium and in remote outposts were Ascetic and Isolationist hermit monk's had set up such as the island were the film the last Jedi was made that actually being a very important site in the history of western Christianity (Skellig Michael though it is really Irish many claim that the saving illuminated manuscript was from one of the English Islands and others say it was from Skellig Michael but either way it was taken there by monk's styling themselves as English missionary's) despite being unpopulated today, illuminated manuscript's were created there including the preserved Nicean bible which s then later taken back to Rome and used to Re-Convert and educate the by that time Semi Pagan church of Rome back into a Christian church an arduous task that took rather longer than western church historians would like to admit.

There are other original texts that were left out, many of them are just to hard to integrate and others are simply lost, one of them the so called book of Enoch has been found in both the dead sea site and also intact in the Ethiopian Orthodox church while it was lost to most of the rest of the Christian and Judaic world until it's rediscovery by the other church's and western scholars.



Peter Vlars answer is more accurate than this, I miss some major historical point's and am not as schooled so?..

(And really speaking the Catholic Church should have Joined the Syriac Orthodox not the other way around since the Syriac is the older and therefore arguably senior except for the whole founded by St Peter argument (and Rome having to be RE-founded by those Christian missionary's that went from England's distant isolated island monastery's to take that illuminated manuscript to them along with intact traditions that they had lost after the Goth's) which actually pertains to more than just Rome and yet the Syriac is know as the church of James because he is the apostle whom found that one BUT arguably they were both founded by Christ so?).

You're a little off on a few of your purported facts.

1. Syria had been part of the Roman Empire since Rome was a Republic and was conquered by Pompei Magnus.

It was the Council of Laodicea that canonized the currently accepted books of the Bible. Where was Laodicea? In Syria. It was a port city near the current city of Latakia.

But I agree with most of the rest of your post. Just wanted to point out a couple of things to give you a more accurate picture.

a reply to: peter vlar

Accept and thank you for the correction, not really a history buff myself.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The Israeli's are really good at this and have really promoted their rightful ownership of the land

I saw a video of a Jew that witnessed his own young child killed by a palestian missile. He said he went into palestine to ask them why they had murdered his child. When he witnessed the harsh conditions they faced on a daily basis he realized that it was not them that killed his child but the idealogy that supressed their freedoms. So now he is proactive in fighting for the freedoms of palestine. That video of this mans words brought tears to my face. It also help me understand that I needed to be more mindful of my own feelings . Its not people but beliefs that are the problem.

Idealogies that use fear and anger to further their goals is not new. The vatican suppressed freedoms of people for centuries. Burning women that refused to accept their idealogy The True Torah Jews site states "Orthodox Jews view the ideology of that state as diametrically opposed to the teachings of traditional Judaism."

Mind against mind just moves the hatred around. We need more heart in this world.

Here's a video of the fragments.

originally posted by: gortex
the cave was given its name as it's only accessible by rappelling down a sheer cliff

First thing that this makes me wonder is, how did they get the scrolls into the cave? Ok, I guess there’s no reason why they couldn’t have been as good, if not better than contemporary climbers with adequate rope.

Next thing is Why? What was so special about these particular scrolls that they chose a place inaccessible enough to get the name ‘Cave of Horror’? Where the other scrolls hidden in equally inaccessible caves?

Surely there’s reason a good reason in there somewhere to keep an eye on this.

a reply to: gortex

Here's from a different set of reports, as each one (that I watched) seem to 'cherry-pick' amongst what to broadcast. These are the one's I settled on and the last one spun it into an almost documentary style with English translations along with dramatic music.

Thievery and Vandalism is rampant anywhere that antiquities may exist. In the end whether one believes or not, it isn't what a discovery of this magnitude is about, it's about having another section of History, adding another jigsaw piece to the historical record that Archeologist hope that with more to follow, a better representation is made.

Global NEWS


NBC News


CBN News

They were hidden to stop the Romans from finding them.

originally posted by: glendMind against mind just moves the hatred around. We need more heart in this world.

For sure glend and with archeological finds like this maybe it can be bring the peoples together they all pray to the same g-- of Abraham and peace is making steady inroads. Not the vid btw never seen it, to be totally honest and realistic gave up watching all the negative stuff and propaganda about the Holy Land and just stick with the positives these days as one just feels netter for it.

Did see the scrolls (originals) a few years ago but would love to see them properly. They were in some museum in Jslem bjut they were in some bloc right at the end of the place. Think from meory arrived after going through the rest of tye antiquities around ten mins before closing up. Lots of bits of paper stuck together, couldn't quite figure much out but looks interesting I guess to compare with the modern authorised stuff.

originally posted by: BerkshireEntity
This is quite interesting! This recent find is cool because of where the cave is and how the people that discovered it had to repel down a cliff to access it.

I wonder if the people who originally put that stuff there had to make a rope repeling apparatus to get them there way back then. Things that make you go hmmm

re; the cave in the side of a cliff

i think the cave for the fragments was constructed by the 2nd century crew

so a high tower scaffold was likely made to dig the inaccessible cave in which to house the scrolls/writings and then to secret the religious copies of text inside that secure cave, tear down the tower platform and repair the topography


straight forward engineering project which we would do today if needed ------ instead of dangling from ropes and makeshift gear