Accepted theory or timeline of human development

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: randomtangentsrme

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: randomtangentsrme
a reply to: Jackfish28

The oldest cities in the world, that are known of, are over 11,000 years old. Your premise is flawed.
theculturetrip.com...

And yet the Blackfoot Tribe has a history over 36,000 years old, and the Hopi can track theirs back over 50,000 years.

But OK...

ETA: And before you get snotty about it, me and mine are not "with" you on this.

We are going to do what we have done the last 3 cycles of civilization on this planet.

Just passing through to the next part...

I can trace my linage to the Lakota Blackfoot tribe. As opposed to the California Blackfoot tribe.
I found an easy link. What is our disagreement?

your first post on the topic...

The oldest cities in the world, that are known of, are over 11,000 years old. Your premise is flawed.

Any other questions, brother?

Damascus isn't even that old. If you read the link, it clearly states that the "area" was inhabited that far back, not that the city was established.

Again, there are a series of characteristics that a culture must exhibit to be termed a "civilization." That says nothing whatsoever about the people of the culture.

Harte

originally posted by: puzzled2
Human race out of Europe not Africa and how do we only have 23 Chromosomes

But going beyond those question 16,000 years ago the world was a hugely different place.
Ice, 400 feet plus lower sea levels and greater space to spread into.

So if most of mankind favoured the coast and water ways we have to look a lot further out to sea.
To find real evidence

Archaic Homo Sapiens dating to 300,000 years old have been found in Morocco.
What do you have from Europe? LOL

Harte

originally posted by: Guyfriday
I think the term "Civilization" needs to be defined if we are going to be picking it apart.

This being said, there is evidence that there were social groups that believed in similar social norms and living in communities pre bronze age (8700BC-2000BC) While this thread I made is mostly about the possible location of Atlantis (AS SEEN HERE) the key point to take away is that around 9300BC humans were organized enough to form large armies of different social groups.

Then you have the Nile River Valley settlements, where people have been living in social groups and trading with or living cooperatively with others for nearly a million years ago. So Yes people have been living together for much longer is taught in basic public education courses, but in higher education this understanding of how old civilization is changes almost daily. Harte would be a better person than I am at explaining this.

As great as it may be the the Blackfoot people know their history, the question of how correct is that history if the history was passed on orally for all those years until recently (well in the past hundred years or so). Being nomadic and refusing to allow site to be examined for historical records, accepting their take on their history is not much different then agreeing the theory is correct without testing it. This is the same issue that pops up when studying early western (ie European and western Asia) history as well. With thousands of years to study and writing be a fairly resent invention, stories without hard facts is the same issue. I will say that those stories that are passed down can be used as jumping off point for backing up the claims being made through physical investigation of the tales. Again that means digging up a site and investigation of the location.

So for anyone wanting to argue about a term being used, please explain what that term means to you.

Species of Homo go back to around 2 million years ago (Homo Habilis.) There were no Homo Sapiens living in the Nile Valley a million years ago.

The definition of "civilization" has some wiggle room. There is general agreement on a set of characteristics, but a culture needn't exhibit every one of those characteristics to be classified as a civilization.
Among the characteristics:
Permanent settlement.
Organized agriculture.
Method of recording - such as writing.
Established system of governing structures.
Division of labor.
Leisure time.

There are several others to pick from. If your culture has enough of them, then it's a civilization.
It's more about the capabilities and capacities of the culture itself. It's got nothing to do with the capabilities and capacities of the individuals in the culture.

Harte

originally posted by: halfoldman
Although a lot is being re-examined and reworked.
The idea that hunter-gatherers change the land and farmed it to a degree is gaining traction.
An argument for this would be Bruce Pascoe's Dark Emu (Magabala Books: 2018).

So to link agriculture and civilization in what Western archeologists wanted to find, is perhaps misleading.

Maybe what was painted at Lascaux was a carefully kept garden, rather than a wilderness.

Very interesting read that one. Blood on the wattle is another pearla.

cheers Labtech! Your a gem brother!

a reply to: Jackfish28

Imagine if our current civilization had annihilated itself back in the 1950's with a hydrogen fusion Armageddon.
Some future archeologists trying to discover what happened come across a small caravan ghost town created near the end of the California gold rush. They would find a concentration of dated artifacts near Tonopah Nevada including the Tonopah nuclear test range that all dated within 100 years of nuclear weapons testing evidence. So would they attribute the headstone dates in the old Tonopah cemetery to the nuclear development? Or perhaps come to believe that clown metallurgists discovered the secret in making nuclear weapons starting in 1905?

originally posted by: LABTECH767
It is amazing how so many scathing attacks come from people repeating untruth's as if they are facts.

Modern humanity is constantly being pushed back in time and is now well over 250.000 years old according to academia, Neanderthals whom had a bigger brain than modern man but apparently were less intelligent are about 500.000 according to academia.

We do not have enough of the Lesser known Denisovan peoples remains and artefacts to know how intelligent they may have been.

But all around the world artefacts have been found that are inconvenient to the prevailing theory and the information passed to our children as fact when it is at best theory and not actually fact.

Objects such as the Nampa Doll (which is one of the FAR younger objects at only about two million years old).

This objects suggest a species of human being's with the ability to think Abstract thought existed at least 2 million years ago, that is four times older than the accepted age of Neanderthal man, other finds are hundreds of times older than this, footprints complete with stitches in coal hundreds of millions of years old.

Of course these are subjective as artefacts of certain variety's have a nasty habit of disappearing into private collections or being destroyed or simply ignored.

Sometimes this is to prevent the professional qualifications and careers of academia and the biased view of history from being shaken to there core, the Smithsonian institutes founder was a believer in Isolationism for example, he believed that separate cultures arose completely independently as opposed to Diffusionism the transfer of ideas between civilizations by people travelling between them and trade, the Smithsonian institute has been accused time and again of hiding, destroying or losing artefacts that do not fit the View of history it endorses.

Experts and scientists have had there career's damaged when they have gone against the ESTABLISHED 'TRUTH'.

In recent times the Brazilian Navy dumped gravel and sand from barged onto a Roman Galley that was found complete with Amphora off the coast of Brazil, there have been claims of Phoenician writing found inscribed on stone markers in the amazon, a bowl was found with Cuneiform writing and these are from the last 5000 years of accepted history but in inconvenient places so have faced ridicule, dismissal or just outright are ignored.

There are large areas of ruins in South Africa that may indicate an area where a population equivalent to a city once lived in structures.

Vast earth work's have been discovered were the Amazon rainforest has been cut back by illegal logging.

The Mayan Civilization of the Yucatan it turn's out once had a city as large as many modern mega city's with perhaps eight or even more million people living in it and many of the formerly known city's were in fact just part of this huge urban sprawl, such a city does not arise without precursors and established infrastructure that grows with it and drives and inspired trade, such a large population are a ready market then as they are now.

China is filled with Pyramids, one the great white pyramid used to have a Crystal capstone witnessed by several people including war time US pilots over flying the region were it is, it was once over 1000 feet tall making it an artificial mountain and far larger than the great pyramid of Giza, it also once had stone casing stones.

Near to the tiny islets known as St Peter and Paul rock's half way between Brazil and Africa wartime US pilot's reported seeing ruins of a town with many buildings under water on the side of a sunken mountain or island.

And the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

Citations and sources are missing. You should know better.

FYI

www.youtube.com...

randall carlson author!

this researcher delves into earlier civilizations and cultures...& modern humanity were not always knuckle draggers for the known/verified 180,000 years of modern human presence (between ice ages and warm periods)

interesting fellow with a menu of YT presentations

originally posted by: Harte
Species of Homo go back to around 2 million years ago (Homo Habilis.) There were no Homo Sapiens living in the Nile Valley a million years ago.

Yeah that's kind of what I thought, but I posted the "nearly a million years ago" based off of similar tools being found in multiple locations that dated back that far. Thank you for clearing that up.

originally posted by: Guyfriday

originally posted by: Harte
Species of Homo go back to around 2 million years ago (Homo Habilis.) There were no Homo Sapiens living in the Nile Valley a million years ago.

Yeah that's kind of what I thought, but I posted the "nearly a million years ago" based off of similar tools being found in multiple locations that dated back that far. Thank you for clearing that up.

Sure.
Habilis made tools too. So did others not even members of the Homo genus.
Like Australopithecus.

Harte

Numerous cities and civilization have been discovered last 30 years that are over 10,000 years old. ( internet) I have run across something called “generational knowledge” more times than I can count. Some of it only 50 years old.

No civilization that we know of claims to have be formed like that, none. I am simply suggesting that civilization is probably 10,000 of years older than currently taught. And that ancient civilization just didn’t make up everything that isnt consistent with current theories taught.

I thought this was space to talk about concepts outside the mainstream........

Of and FU

a reply to: Jackfish28

a reply to: Harte

Probably a walk or float in the park as it is separated by 13 kilometres (8.1 miles; 7.0 nautical miles) Saves walking all the way around.

May have even been caves linking the continents as RN divers have gotten within a mile or 2 from Gibraltar to Morocco but got stopped by cave ins. Extremely cool seeing the different rock formations that had to been formed in Air that are now submerged.

You will like this, A 7000 year old ostrich egg with a map of the Pyramid's - yes the Pyramids how old are they supposed to be again, less than 5000 years ago according to orthodox Egyptology and the cowards (or otherwise invested individuals) that refuse to take into account evidence that goes against this in the rest of the mainstream Archaeological community.


The Dream Stele say's this.

----

en.wikipedia.org...
Year I, third month of the first season, day 19, under the Majesty of Horus, the Mighty Bull, begetting radiance, (the Favourite) of the Two Goddesses, enduring in Kingship like Atum, the Golden Horus, Mighty of Sword, repelling the Nine Bows; the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Men-kheperu-Ra, the Son of Ra, Thothmes IV, Shining in Diadems; beloved of (Amon), given life, stability and dominion, like Ra, for ever.

Live the Good God, the Son of Atum, Protector of Hor-akhty, Living Image of the All-Lord Sovereign, Begotten of Ra, Excellent Heir of Kheperi, beautiful of face like his father, who came forth equipped with the form of Horus upon him, a King who... favour with the Ennead of the Gods; who purifies Heliopolis, who satisfies Ra; who beautifies Memphis, who presents Truth to Atum, who offers it to Him who is South of his Wall (Ptah), who makes a monument by daily offering to the God who created all things, seeking benefits for the Gods of the South and the North, who builds their houses of limestone, who endows all their offerings, Son of Atum of His Body, Thothmes IV, Shining in Diadems like Ra, Heir of Horus upon His Throne, Men-kheperu-Ra, given life.

When His Majesty was a stripling, like Horus, the Youth in Khemmis, his beauty was like the Protector of His Father, he seemed like the God himself. The army rejoiced because of love for him, and he repeated the circuit of his might like the Son of Nut and all the princes and all the great ones...

Behold, he did a thing which gave him pleasure upon the highlands of the Memphite Nome, upon its southern and northern road shooting at a target with copper bolts, hunting lions and the small game of the desert, coursing in his chariot, his horses being swifter than the wind, together with two of his followers, while not a soul knew it.

Now, when his hour came for giving rest to his followers, it was always at the Setepet (Sanctuary of Hor-em-akhet), beside Seker in Rostaw, Rennutet in Iat-Ta-Mut(?)... in the desert (or necropolis), Mut of the Southern... (Neit?), Mistress of the Southern Wall. Sekhmet, presiding over the Mountain, the Splendid Place of the Beginning of Time, opposite the Lords of Kher-ahah (Babylon), the sacred road of the Gods to the Western Necropolis of Iwn (Heliopolis).


Now, the very great statue of Kheperi rests in this place the great in power, the splendid in strength, upon which the shadow of Ra tarries. The quarters of Memphis, and all the cities which are by him come to him, raising their hands for him in praise to his face, bearing oblations for his Ka.

One of those days it came to pass that the King's Son Thothmes came, coursing at the time of mid-day, and he rested in the shadow of this Great God. Sleep seized him at the hour when the sun was in its zenith, and he found the Majesty of this Revered God speaking with his own mouth, as a father speaks with his son, saying: 'Behold thou me, my son, Thothmes. I am thy father, Hor-em-akhet-Kheperi-Ra-Atum; I will give to thee my Kingdom upon earth at the head of the living. Thou shalt wear the White Crown and the Red Crown upon the Throne of Geb, the Hereditary Prince. The land shall be thine, in its length and in its breath, that which the eye of the All-Lord shines upon. The food of the Two Lands shall be thine, the great tribute of all countries, the duration of a long period of years. My face is directed to you, my heart is to you; Thou shalt be to me the protector of my affairs, because I am ailing in all my limbs. The sands of the Sanctuary, upon which I am, have reached me; turn to me in order to do what I desire. I know that thou art my son, my protector; behold; I am with thee, I am thy leader.'

When he finished this speech, the King's Son awoke, hearing this..., he understood the words of the God, and he put them in his heart. He said: 'Come, let us hasten to our houses in the city; they shall protect the oblations for this God which we bring for him (or that we shall protect... and that we may bring): oxen... and all young vegetables; and we shall give praise to Wennefer... Khafra, the statue made for Atum-Hor-em-akhet.

-----

Of course they recently found a missing piece of wood in Scotland that was supposedly found inside the great pyramid and is about 5000 years old BUT of course that and other finds including the outer casing stones of the pyramid's AND the workers graveyard can easily be explained by the Dream Stele which tells of a pharaoh who slept near to the sphynx and had a vision and a dream that he would be great if he restored the site so he RENOVATED the site and that most likely included the pyramids and including sealing up old entrances and placing new casing stones on them which given there size was a monumental task but not exactly building them, likely other pyramids in Egypt WERE built by the Egyptian's but likely the Giza Plateau, diorite stone dishes and even many of there monument's were robbed out and moved to where they are from far more ancient sites and predate dynastic Egypt, with Egyptians scribbling there inscriptions onto them and perhaps even taking inspiration for there fashions from them at a much later date, even sites built by Dynastic Egypt were not immune to this as the Egyptians would happily erase earlier pharaoh's names and write the name of there current rulers in there place since the pharaoh's wanted to be remembered and believed the KA or Egyptian Soul would forget it's own name and identity fading away if it was not given something to be remembered for and also that such remembrance made these soul's more powerful.


Hmmmm I wonder what would happen if this information about an experiment with the Schist disc is true if you put it at the Apex or the pyramid or in some form of contraption inside of one?, it does look like a piece of a machine after all.
news.sky.com...


I know she goes on a bit advertising her sponsors on some of those videos BUT worth waiting through it for the good stuff.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Thanks for this, My sister lives in Nampa Idaho, Im sure they would love to check this information out!

originally posted by: CrazyWater
a reply to: LABTECH767

Thanks for this, My sister lives in Nampa Idaho, Im sure they would love to check this information out!

Hope she likes wasting time.
Nampa figure hoax

Harte

a reply to: Lumenari

Did the blackfoot build cities? Id like to see them.

a reply to: Jackfish28

In my honest opinion, we're the 3rd or maybe even 4th civilization that's been on Earth and once we're wiped out like the others, there will be people asking these same questions and thinking they've been the only civilization. I think we walked with dinosaurs, too, and were advanced to the point that their advancements were wiped out with them just like ours will be when we're wiped out.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Jackfish28
Does anyone on here really buy it. I thought it was probably bull# when I was high school.

Humans are 100,000 years old but lived in caves and like animals until like 6000 years ago then developed civilization magically at same time when they discovered how to farm.

Really ????

The species homo sapiens is around 2-300,000 years old, advanced sociology developed 75-150,000 years ago and civilization was achieved 6-10,000 years ago. Whatever your poorly developed understanding looks like is because you haven't taken full advantage of the internet.

Wikipedia is your friend.

Honestly man, what's your purpose for insulting the OP over something he read about and asked a question on? You're not high and mighty and full of facts, all you know is what you yourself have read or been told.

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: CrazyWater
a reply to: LABTECH767

Thanks for this, My sister lives in Nampa Idaho, Im sure they would love to check this information out!

Hope she likes wasting time.
Nampa figure hoax

Harte

All ancient artifacts are hoaxes. Every single one of them because someone always says so and gives their opinion on why. You can't prove it was a hoax and neither can your link, they just claim it is because they think it is.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

You probably know a lot more about the native peoples of America than someone like me from Europe but that really isn't a fair question because you know they were buffalo hunters and made up of several distinct tribal people's, they may have had some permanent settlement's however or places they would return to time and again that then became seasonal settlement's but likely they were hunter gatherers due to there reliance upon animals and there refusal due to there spiritual beliefs to eat fish, use canoes etc, however they may also have farmed since that does not seem to have been against there prohibition against fishing.
www.everyculture.com...

There were many other tribes however that did have very large settlements that in some cases were perhaps as large as many of the city's in Europe from which the white settlers were coming, some typically of the farming and fishing nations housed many thousands of people but the plagues that Europeans carried with them decimated the native population just at the same time that Europeans were starting to come into the America's in every larger numbers, this meant that the native people's nation's were broken, many of there warriors and leaders died and they could no keep hold of and defend there land's as vicious and literally thieving murdering settlers came and took them from them.

The Native Americans suffered some horrific crimes, for a long time it was a bragging piece to have an Indian bone handle knife made from the bones of some native person, Indian skin wallet's, even some of the hat tassels worn by some cavalry soldiers from clusters time were were replaced by the dried stretched whom (at least the fallopian tubes) and ovaries of native woman that they had butchered, I saw that bit on a documentary some time ago over here in England late at night.

Many of the native people's were civilized, just not as technically advanced as the Europeans that came to displace them and although Syphilis is believed to have come to with the Spaniards FROM south America when they first entered that part of the America's there was no disease to compete with the sicknesses that the Europeans took with them to the Americas that did most of the conquering for them.

That said the nations of the American, even if we just focus on the huge area of north America and leave south America out of it were extremely varied, different languages, some looked quite different to others, different traditions, religion's, belief's and life styles.

Some were hunter gatherer's, others farmers and fishermen with settled villages and town's and even city's and they traded with one another with a trade network that crossed the America's.

And of course there are enigmatic structures and ruin's up and down the America's many of which were destroyed either by being robbed for there materials for building elsewhere.

In some places the ruin's survived, the Anasazi people's ruins of the Mojave for example, the ruins of Cahokia and the Snake mound and other such artefacts.

There are also story's related to the giant body's about them being found in copper armour and being very tall.

I don't think they were giant's (though I do not dismiss the legend's of Giants out of hand as there are too many account's and legend's to do that) but just a very tall people, there are others in the world such as in Africa for example the Dinka Tribe, so why not a native American people of similar or even larger stature.

And of course lastly many of the US population whom think they are white, black etc have native north American ancestry, a lot of white settlers married native woman and a lot of native men likewise adopted the new lifestyle more than is recognized and with name change once they were baptized etc the and the loss of or just lack of early church records from those times there ancestry has been forgotten.

A lot of places were there are Modern US city's and town's are exactly were there were once Native city's and town's for much the same reason as the natives built them, farming, fishing etc and only the coastal city's are mostly of European origin but even then many of them are built over the sites of earlier native settlement's.