Ecclesiastes (23) When the princes feast in the morning

The book of Ecclesiastes tends to be neglected.
I must admit that I’ve been neglecting it myself.
So I come to this book with no preconceptions, except that a book found in the Old Testament must be intended to have a spiritual meaning. The people who compiled the canon were not in the business of collecting an anthology of “Hebrew literature.

The main theme of the early chapters has been that natural life and human life in the natural world do not go beyond a series of cycles of alternating events. Any apparent changes are discovered to be stages within these cycles, while the overall system itself does not change.

It is “vanity” for humans to look for anything beyond these things in the natural world, trying to transcend the system on their own. It is better, and the gift of God, for them to find their enjoyment in the world as it is, maintaining themselves in the way which God has provided.

Nevertheless, God has “put eternity into man’s mind”, in such a way that eternity cannot be known completely. Thus man is made aware of something greater than himself. “God has made it so, in order that men should fear before him.”

It seems that this nearly completes the central message of the book. Much of what follows looks like an assortment of “footnotes” under the general heading “other flaws noticeable in human life when God is disregarded”.

Ch10 vv16-20

We have reached a chapter which looks more like a chapter in Proverbs. That is, we are offered a series of more-or-less self-contained proverbial statements. The theme in this group is not obvious. But may be “flawed human kingship”.

V16 “Woe to you, O land, when your king is a child.”
This lamentation could be illustrated by many examples in history. Shakespeare’s Henry V! Part 1 would do.

“And your princes feast in the morning.”
As we discover in Jeremiah, the word usually translated as “princes” refers to the leading officials in the land, an elite combining aristocracy and bureaucracy. If they are feasting during working hours, “for drunkenness” (see next verse), then no work is getting done.

V17 “Happy are you, O Land, when your king is the son of free men.”
We would have expected “grown man” as the natural contrast. This implies that the previous verse could have been “your king is a slave”, with the same result. In fact the NIV does use “servant”, in that verse, relegating “child” to a footnote.

How could a slave become king of a land? Easily enough, if the king is appointed by an overlord ruler, like a king of Babylon or Persia, giving subordinate kings to the lands under his control. In that case, he might send out one of his own administrators, who might be a slave in origin. Though I did not think of it at the time, this would also explain how a new king could have “gone from prison to throne, or in his own kingdom had been born poor” (ch4 v14).

Under any kind of strong king, the princes do their work during the day and feast “at the proper time”, in the evening.

V18 “Through sloth the roof sinks in, and through indolence the roof leaks.”
Sloth, as a personal vice, is one of the topics of Proverbs. Perhaps this is what happens to the metaphorical “building” of the kingdom, under the neglectful princes of v16.

V19 “Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything.”
That last clause gives the verse a very odd appearance as advice in the “wisdom” tradition. Proverbs talks about the power of money, but not in a positive sense; “A bribe is like a magic stone in the eyes of him who gives it, wherever he turns he prospers” (Proverbs ch17 v8).

The whole verse looks like a parody of this earlier statement;
“Go, eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do” (ch9 v7).
In fact I’m tempted to suppose that the verse is a drinking song, offered as a sample of what the princes of v16 are roaring out at their drunken feasts.

V20 “Even in your thought, do not curse the king, nor in your bedchamber curse the rich; for a bird of the air will carry your voice, or some winged creature tell the matter.”
This is prudential advice for dealing with unpredictable human rulers.

This verse has a place in history through being misused by the infamous Judge Jeffreys. It was at the treason trial of Algernon Sidney. Sidney had been writing a manuscript on political theory, which was discovered in a search of his home. His own argument in court was “My lord, I think ‘tis a right of mankind, and ‘tis exercised by all studious men, that they write in their own closets what they please for their own memory, and no man can be answerable for it, unless they publish it.” Jeffreys responded by quoting the verse as “Curse not the king, not in thy thoughts, nor in thy bedchamber”, adding that it was the “duty of mankind” to observe that advice. Of course this was not a valid argument under English law. In fact Jeffreys himself would normally have despised the kind of “sectary” who would try to cite scripture in support of an argument. Algernon Sidney was beheaded.

P.S. I received the Pfizer vacccine nine hours ago, and "tiredness" is one of the possible side-effects, so I don't think I will be hanging around tonight.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Get your rest and take care of yourself.

The thread will be waiting for you

Well, the side-effects seem to be stabilised as a little stiffness/tiredness, enough to slow down my movements for the moment, but not affecting my typing hand. We are back in business. Next week, throwing our bread upon the water

Noble and Free man are not the same.

Bread and Feast are not the same.

Things that are different are not equal.

When Jesus used the term bird in sowing seed it is connected to Satan. Many times birds are connect to instrument of devils in the Bible. No angel has wings and those beings with wings are not always birds but devils. Cherubs have wings and Lucifer is said to be an Anointed (Christ) Cherub. You missed the connections. Again why worldly sources like Shakespeare? Cannot you find the Bible examples?

a person who lacks insight to the word of God, not following the Holy Ghost n Study, learning and practice usually misses a lot of spiritual applications and understandings.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Again why worldly sources like Shakespeare? Cannot you find the Bible examples?

I bet you would be hard-pushed to find Biblical illustrations of the point being made in that verse. Solomon called himself a child, but the kingdom was not in trouble until he grew up. I can think of three more kings of Judah who came to the throne as children (which is probably three more than you could remember without looking them up), but in those cases the kingdom was already in trouble, so they don't make the point either.

There is nothing wrong with using illsutrations from worldly life. Jesus used illustrations from worldly life. I say again, JESUS USED ILLUSTRATIONS FROM WORLDLY LIFE. We call them parables. The man going out to sow his seed is a Biblical example now, but it wasn't a Biblical example at the time Jesus used it. It was an example of the kind of thing that happens in daily life, being used to help them understand the new thought he was presenting.

This is using a very elementary technique of teaching,that is, using the familiar to throw light on what may be new or unfamiliar. If you don't understand that technique, that is not my problem.

You're in danger of falling back into the rut of making "finding fault with other people" the main reason for your existence here. That would be OK, if you were pointing out things that were genuinely wrong, but you don't. You invent imaginary and artificial standards of judgement, designed for the sole purpose of finding fault with people, so you are incessantly getting up into your pulpit as Pope Chester and finding fault with things that are NOT wrong.

It used to be using Bible translations which you haven't approved. Now it appears to be "using illiustrations drawn from outside the Bible". As I've said before, you try to make your ignorance and failure to understand things the gold standard which everybody else is obliged to follow. You try to throw your weight around, though you have no weight to be thrown, and that's when you get slapped down. Haven't you worked that out yet?

In your last thread, you set out in the opposite direction, of doing sonething constructive towards presenting God to the world. I gave you the firat flag for that thread. Can't we settle down on the idea that doing something constructive is more worth-while?

a reply to: ChesterJohn
P.S. You need to bear in mind that my primary aim here is to understand what the writer meant in writing the words. That's where Biblical interpretation has to begin.

If you think i have missed a possible interpretation, all you need to do is add it in as your own suggestion.
Since failing to spot something is not a crime, throwing in an accusation at the same time just gives away your psychological state. You need to get a grip on those reins, and get your horse to turn off the warpath.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ChesterJohn
P.S. You need to bear in mind that my primary aim here is to understand what the writer meant in writing the words.

And right there is the problem. It is not about what any writer meant because these are not the writers words these words are God's words. And Jesus was not bringing out any NEW thing or thought remember how this book started out. Nothing new under the sun, a time for sowing and a time for Gathering. It had been over 450 years since there was any word from heaven. He was fulfilling OT scriptures, remember the people and the priest were all in wonder on how he spoke the word with Authority not like the scribes and they knew not where he got his wisdom.

If you were going to use life examples that is one thing but Jesus never spoke using a writer or poet of his day. You should have chose Paul because he in one instance, he loosely quotes a worldly poet. If you wanted to use a quote from a book or writings try quoting a man of God. You could use Lewis Sperry Chafer, Charles Spurgeon, Scholfield, Adrian Rogers or a host of other Christian Authors.

Let me remind you, you are not Jesus. He could use examples in his PARABLES to get across a point. But his earthly ministry was to Jews who had already rejected the words of God. And he could do so without pointing people away from scriptures. Notice when Christ used the parable of the man went out to sow, he brought it back and told you the seed was the words of God. Though you are to have the mind of Christ, in some areas you are not using that mind.

It is not about what the words mean. It is not about the interpretation, as the words are already interpreted into English. It is first and foremost about what it says,where it says it, how it is said. And Secondly, It is about you believing what it says, where it says it, without changing it to mean what you think it says or what you want it to say. Nor is it about what you think the interpretation is? (Interpretation is looked upon as Relative or Subjective to each reader).

I used to read every bible translation available. I still have them. But when you discover, which obviously you haven't, that there is only one Bible that has all the WORDS, PHRASES, VERSES and SECTIONS in it. For years I was navigating the seas of cloudy biblical Scholarship without a compass, without a strong rudder, on a ship that was taking on water, eating dry bread and stale waters. Once I discovered that there was a book that had ALL the words of God in it. It was as if the clouds parted, the seas calmed, and I was eating fresh warm bread and pure cool water which gave me renewed strength on which to sail the seas of life. The Truth of the matter is WHICH BIBLE is very important.

This is not about me finding fault, nice obfuscation BTW. It is all about sharpening iron against Iron you need it because you are a child king. But when the plank of pride has gotten so large you cannot see, it is time for you to remove the plank. No one attacked you, I attacked the message not the messenger. But if you are so blind you can't see the truth then the only thing left on my part is to try and protect those you are misleading, those you have following you around in a sea of murky waters and dark skies using a broken compass on a sinking boat, crying out "all is well we are still afloat", but all the time drifting and flowing in the worldly tides of human despair, eating moldy bread and drinking the polluted waters of Scholarship.

a reply to: DISRAELI

There are thousands of Christian writers of Poetry, Fiction and Non-Fiction, Self Help, Cooking and Heath, Motivation etc out there. Try filling the library of your mind as well as your book shelf with them, if you are going to read anything.

Also, let me remind you if I expand on your work to give the readers that which is lacking I will by doing so tell them I agree with your doctrine and teaching. Which by the way, I don't. The only reason I tried was to show you what you missed, which I am not sure you missed it, as much as it is you are ignorant of those things which God has freely revealed to us, for those things are ours forever. Compare the spiritual things (God's words) with Spiritual (God's Words) as the Holy Ghost (who is God) Does when he is teaching us (1Cor 2:13), when we follow god's instructions of Study and to rightly Divide 2Tim 2:15).

a reply to: ChesterJohn
What it comes down to is that I believe in exegesis (that is, reading the meaning of a text OUT OF the words), and you believe in eisegesis (that is, reading the meaning of a text INTO the words).

I understand from you that this is how you justify the parable reading "a man found a treasure in a field and went and hid HIMSELF". That would have been an absurd action, and it cannot possibly have been what Jesus meant to describe. And in fact the words of the text do not say that, as long as they are read properly by someone who understands how to read sentences. You have defended your interpretation on the grounds that it fits in with a theory you've evolved from elsewhere. That's "reading into". I prefer "reading out of".

In my judgement, your approach creates bad interpretions, which means that it has no value for offering a critique of other people's interpretations. You are not a good judge of what other people say if you don't know what you're talking about. You have nothing to offer us execpt bluster.

a reply to: DISRAELI

But you are actually READING INTO the WORDS of Ecclesiastes through your exegesis.

You fail to see that scripture say more than one thing. Notice in your version punctuations are removed or changed and words are removed, changed or added, that in so doing, in changes what it says.


BTW I did not deny the illustration as put forth in anyway. You were and still are argumentative. I said, that there was more to what it says, when God's word said, ", he hideth". You see only the earthly and worldly I see that and the spiritual as well. This is what I said in short, The field is the world, the man is Jesus, he hideth who he is to the world because if they had known they would not have crucified the Lord (1 Cor 2:8-98 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.). So by his crucifixion he purchased the world. And that was the purpose of his first coming.

Remember the purpose Jesus said he used parables? Basically it is hidden to those who have no ears or eyes. A disciple would have seen what I said and praised God for its revelation, but you call me names, belittled me, and disparaged God's truth as found in the scripture to the readers.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Please show me where you are instructed in the Bible to exegesis the words in the Bible?

Your exegesis of the words is exactly what King Saul did with the words of Samuel in 1 Samuel 13:8 (the exact words of Samuel are found in 1Samuel 10:8).

And you never answered as to why you allowed the limit of the word feast to only bread and Nobles are not the same as free men.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
The instruction is clearly given in the text you're always quoting;
"RIGHTLY divide the words of truth." That means reading what the words mean, not what they don't mean.
"A man found a treasure in a field and hid himself" is wrongly dividing the word of truth, bceause Jesus did not intend to say that, and that is not what the words mean.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Rightly divide means to separate not join. Now the Word Study implies the words are what you are to study. You rightly divide by asking 7 questions which I like to call the 7 tools you must ask, Who, what, When, Where Why, Which and how. When asking these questions you will be rightly dividing God's words. If not asking or answering them causes people to wrongly join together scriptures.

I find it hilarious that you quote 2Tim 2:15 yet I have pointed out time and again you are not following 2Tim 2:15. See you shown ignorance to how to study God's words how much more when you try and teach it.

"A man found a treasure in a field and hid himself" I want you to look at what you just wrote and compare it to Matthew 13:44 KJV "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

How many pieces of punctuation do you have you your verse quote? Not a one.

But look at Matther 13:44 again, the Field is the world (already interpreted for us by Christ in the sower of the seed), Notice too the treasure is already hidden, they represent the Jews or Israel in context of the Kingdom of heaven a earthly kiingdom. Further more the treasure will later represent all saved mankind after the cross. Now for the simple reader as stated we see he hideth which has a comma before and after it, however most apply the hideth to the treasure. Nothing wrong with understanding except, the English writers made a mistake and added a comma between the he and the treasure which causes the hideth to be connected to the nearest noun which is he. Hideth is the action and it CAN connect to the closest Noun "he" which in this case it is referring to the man, which is before the treasure so most see the treasure because he is reference to something before he found the treasure. This strange old English way of punctuating allows for their to have the deeper spiritual meaning as well as the standard simple meaning. I don't deny either one I just add the other which you deny.

This verse i Matthew 13:44 has supposedly been corrected by the RSV and ASV to read as you wrote it in your paraphrase with no punctuation. Now compare to the version you like to use The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. to the KJB above. The newer translation added, removed and reconstructed the words of God to limit it to one understanding, the simple one and keep men bind to the truth. They don't want people to know Christ bought them and frees them. they want to get you to add work to the cross of Christ.

But the deeper spiritual under standing is for those who are no longer feeding on milk. The context of the chapter is tribulation and judgment. Before this verse is speaks of angels reaping that is connected directly to Rev 14:14-20. In verse 44 Jesus is spiritually speaking of himself. But in the RSV as the connection about angels reaping a harvest is lost, do to changing the word of God. They took out the 6 punctuation marks and re-wrote the verse and then inserted different punctuation marks at different points losing the truth that speaks of Christ. You ignored why Christ would hide himself even though I gave you the comparative scriptures many times, you completely ignore it and you just out right attack me.

This truth is lost to you because of the version you like. But it is not lost to those who use the KJB. Those punctuation marks were put there by God when he used those men to preserve his word to the English speaking world that was to come about starting under King James that was known as the English Empire. It was the only language to spoken on all continents by the end 17th Century.

Jesus did intend for men to see the truth but he used parables to speak to them and in the context of Matthew 13 he said,

Matt 13:9-17 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

To miss the spiritual truth was not your fault, it was your teachers and those you look to who have taught you. I learned to no longer rely on others to teach me the word of God. I let the Holy Ghost, who indwells me to teach me, through my reading and studying the word.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
I have advised you on many occasions to take that verse to a professional English teacher, who would explain to you how that sentence works.
In that case, it is your inability to read properly which is causing the problem.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ChesterJohn
I have advised you on many occasions to take that verse to a professional English teacher, who would explain to you how that sentence works.
In that case, it is your inability to read properly which is causing the problem.

I have advised you to rightly divide and seek the spiritual meaning as well but you don't so why should I heed your advice if you cant see spiritual truths.

It is not bout the reading I said it before I don't deny what you see, I only added the spiritual lesson you don't see. By showing you how that punctuation works. You can only get the spiritual by comparing spiritual things with Spiritual. Jesus the man, was hidden from the World, mankind, which is the treasure, so that he could purchase man with the precious blood of Christ. He was telling them that but if they could not receive it. If you can't see that truth it is no me it can only be you.