"Eye has not seen - ear has not heard - mind has not imagined..."

Hi fellow travellers of ATS,

I was discussing a bit of Biblical scripture with my dear wife this evening, and the conversation turned on a sixpence/dime, and we found ourselves thinking about the actual 'practicalities' of the Heaven which we theorise is the 'place' we'll arrive at at the time of our transition from life into death, and the Hereafter.. Now we've been Christian for almost twenty years, and we've been pretty well committed all the way through, despite some slip ups in the earlier years which got us angry at each other for a while. God healed the issue in time, and we're happy to be in a blessed place in terms of our relationship these days. But one thing which we haven't really thought too much about is what 'Heaven' will be like.. In a way, this is strange, in light of our spiritual path of commitment to Christ. However, in a sense it seems reasonable that we haven't put too much thought into it. Each day has trouble enough of its own" so to speak - we've been focused on the practicalities of making our way in the world, and in fact the Scripture adjures us, in a sense, not to spend inordinate amounts of time theorising & speculatng on what it will be like, as it is said:

1 Corinthians 2:9

That is what the Scriptures mean when they say, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.”

The way it has been explained makes it apparent to us that for all the speculating in the world, there's no way to approach the wonders of what the awesome & infinite Creator God has in store for those who love Him - those who love life, essentially, because His life is the light of the world. Jesus said:

John 10:10
The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life.

The Bible is very clear - life is the gift of God, and only the insane do not love life in principle. I don't mean those poor souls who are going through a severe depression. They themselves are aware that life should be abundantly joyful & satisfying, but for whatever reason they are unable to enjoy it as they know they should be able to. And often that's a simple matter, though difficult to correct, of the brain chemistry being slightly out of balance, problems with dopamine regulation & so on. But that's not the whole story.

I actually went through a severe depression in 2011/2012. I was so severely depressed that on the psychiatric scale of 1-10, with 1 being 'catatonic', I was marked at level 2. It was abjectly awful, an experience I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy, not anyone. My sense of connection to my life, to my family, to God & to the Universe, was just completeky switched off. Intellectually I knew I still loved my family, and I never stopped caring for them, but the joy of life was just gone somehow, nothing out there in the world around seemed interesting to me - people would say "Oh watch some comedy. that'll cheer you up.." But it simply wasn't possible. I saw everything as a sham, nothing had any verve to it, there was no raison d'etre.

Thankfully, after eight months (almost to the day), I experienced what the psychologists call 'a spontaneous recovery'. Basically, after a lengthy night of crazy dreams & out of body experiences,I awoke, and instantly I felt the love of God, the joy of the Universe, the blessed sanctity of peace, harmony with God's creation, where before I had felt that the very material universe hated me (a very weird illusion, but one which was strongly persistent while I was depressed..) I sincerely wish you all well, if you are going through something similar, please know that God doesn't abandon people as some preachers are insistent on stating. God does not revoke His gifts or calling, and if you have met Christ in your heart & committed yourself to a life of exploring what that means, then you are in a safe & blessed position, even if you are going through a paradoxically terribly difficult time of depression. God taught me through my experience in many ways, and in fact in one of the very last days of the eight month span of time, I was present in just the right place at just the right time, to save the life of a baby girl (probably around two or three years old) who was choking on s large french fried chip that had curled itself around & down into her windpipe, completely blocking off her air supply, she couldn't catch even a molecule of air. The parents panicked, everyone around looked shocked & terrified just like the parents (we were at a fairly popular theme park during the holiday), but instinctively I just scooped her up & performed the Heimlicj maneuver. The chip came out after a few tries, and thank God she was breathing again, her parents were melting with relief & tears of joy. Even though I couldn't experience the overwhelming joy of that moment as I once would have done, I felt a glimmer of a spark of joy, and hope. It set my expectation that God wasn't finished with me yet, and after a few more weeks I experienced my total deliverance from depression. My doctor couldn't say the word 'miracle', but I could tell from his expression that was what he meant.

Moving on, the main purpose of this thread really, was to examine the idea of Heaven in some broad context, in terms of what it means to each of us that one day we will experience life withouy pain, without tears, without fear, without rejection, without uncertainty, without emotional instability, without loneliness, without the 'gravity well' of sin dragging us downward in our mind & heart. Inclusive of those wonderful elements of the overall 'gestalt' of the Heavenly experience, of course we can add the most important thing of all - a direct & ever-present connection to the Inifinte God, through Christ (who will appear to persons of all faith groups who have lived in accordance with the Word written on their heart).

Beyond these wonderful things, which in themselves will be glorious beyond measure, there was a little somthing I heard in a TV show today, which got me thinking somewhat.. We know that all those wonderful gifts await us, but beyond that, we will be gifted with the joy that comes from experiencing all those things that we had wished we could have done in our lifetimes.. Anything & everything that, if we had been better positioned during life, we would have loved to have done. What would have been our life's love, if nothing were witheld from us by the constraints & inopportune obstacles during our workaday lives.. Would you have learned to fly a plane, had your eyesight been 20:20..? Would you have worked as a dog trainer, if you hadn't had a deeply upsetting allergy to dog's dander..? Would you have climbed the heights of Kilimanjaro, were it not for your damaged knee joint, busted up in a car crash as you turned 18..?

This exercise starts small, as we think of all the cool stuff that we would have loved to do, if we were in a position to do so during our lifetimes. But gradually, as you weigh up the life you have led to this point, you may begin to develop deeply complex & emotionally upwelling matters of the heart & mind, a love for engineering but no head for mathematics, a desire to live in a cabin by a lake in the mountain pass, were it not for the neurological disorder that leaves you in constant crippling pain throughout your whole body.. and so on.

That last one is one of my dreams, and the disability which has confounded almost everything I ever dared to dream about, thinking of how, given other circumstances, I would have worked out the joys & loves of my life, the sort of work I'd have undertaken as an entrepreneur, working hard to support my family, how I would have developed my innate sense of adventure, how I would have done all sorts of wonderful things.

It really is remarkable, sat here now, contemplating this question - despite having been a Christian for almost 20 years, I've not thought much about what I anticipate Heaven may be like... I've experienced a few very powerful dreams about Heaven, and in each case I saw & experienced only a snapshot moment, but oh my gosh, it's simply beyond description. The authenticity & organic beauty of the very experience of being there, in that vibrant atmosphere which is infused with the living presence of the God of all Creation.

These dreams served a purpose, in helping to communicate to me that I had been lifted out of the chaos of my youth, given a new heart & a new mind, made into a man of faith who could put his best foot forward.. I learned so much in the years following the time when I committed my heart & life to Christ, or to God if you need that to read a bit more universal - because that's what it means, regardless. Those dreams served to orient me as a man with a trajectory, with a direction of travel, so I could put that best foot forward & keep my heart centre focused absolutely on who had made this possible, and what the astounding implications were.

But then, as I mentioned, I didn't actually give much thought in a pragmatic, practical sense, as to what was meant by the fact that God would give me new life at the moment of my earthly death.. I guess the sacred experiences of those very specific & wonderful dreams kept me on the right track, focused on things of the Earth while I were here. But now, it really does strike me that Heaven, aside from being that place of relationship with the Divine, is also a place to work out all the wonderful dreams & possibilities of an infinite world, with a whole new paradigm shift to take me across that partition between this life & the next, into a greater Reality in which all things were open to this new capacity for beautiful experiences, where boundless joy met eternal love & salvation.

So with that said, my question is simple - if you frame Heaven as a place rooted in some of the wonderful elements of context in which we understand it, resting on pure potential & pure intentionality towards a life of joy & enthusiasm, abundant grace & connection to God whenever you turn your mind to Him, though you are always aware of His presence. Please share a few of the things which are in a sense, very earthly, which I might call the effervescence of experience, the unlimited, unbridled possibilities, scooting across the waves of divine oceans.. What sorts of things do you feel that perhaps your life circumstances meant you weren't able to fulfil, despite the drive which gave you to consider wanting to do such things? It can be as simple or as grandiose as you can imagine. God states that it is literally beyond our imaginings, hence all the amazing things you can conceive of now, are only the beginning!

Please share, and feel free to add as much context or personal experience as you life, perhaps you & your family had a tradition, and you want to relive it now it's not possible any more, perhaps if your father passed away, and you've deeply missed that activity together with him. Whatever you feel comfortable in sharing. I hope to reinforce an understanding that whatever glorious & incredible things we might imagine here, it's only just the beginning..!! Everything, absolutely everything will be enhanced & exalted, because God is exalted in Heaven, and His presence is the substance ofthe universe, a universe of which we have as yet experienced only a shadow of the True state of things..

...“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.”

Much blessing,

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
Heaven which we theorize is the 'place' we'll arrive at at the time of our transition from life into death, and the Hereafter.

When one infers there's a Heaven (and their belief is derived from Christianity) it further implies there is a Hell.

There is no Hell. God is as real as you or I. And, I'm pretty sure there's more than one (based on personal encounters with at least a second).

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
Heaven which we theorize is the 'place' we'll arrive at at the time of our transition from life into death, and the Hereafter.

When one infers there's a Heaven (and their belief is derived from Christianity) it further implies there is a Hell.

There is no Hell. God is as real as you or I. And, I'm pretty sure there's more than one (based on personal encounters with at least a second).

Christianity bases its teachings on the Bible. And while it is true that many so-called Christian religions teach a Hellfire doctrine to keep people enslaved to their churches, the Bible does not teach such a place. No where in the Bible is a place of hellfire found.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

It was enlightening and nice to read your thoughts on these things. These are deep things and are good to contemplate. I wanted to share this.

The Bible talks about heaven well enough. It is a real place. But it tells us that the earth is the habitation of humankind. There is a Biblical hope of a future paradise earth wherein all the dead on God's memory will be resurrected, there will be no more war, no more famine, no more sickness, no more death. And these former things that we deal with will not be called to the mind or brought up in the heart.

There is a hope in the Bible of a very small group of people that do receive heavenly life. But that is a very select group of people and it is for a select purpose.

originally posted by: MidnightHawk
Christianity bases its teachings on the Bible.

Yeah ... and there's an Old Testament and a New Testament. I wonder why. I bet it's because TPTB didn't like the way it was written and had it revised in print. I've got real problems with that.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

There’s a book called “Heaven” by Randy Alcorn which has been life-changing for many Christians. It asserts that Heaven will be a physical place- here on earth- and that we will all have restored bodies and we will continue to learn and grow and work and have projects and interest and relationships and everything. Which sounds a lot better than sitting on clouds singing for eternity. He makes a good scriptural case for it. Check it out, if that sounds interesting to you both.

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: MidnightHawk
Christianity bases its teachings on the Bible.

Yeah ... and there's an Old Testament and a New Testament. I wonder why. I bet it's because TPTB didn't like the way it was written and had it revised in print. I've got real problems with that.

I used to, as well. So much, in fact, and especially with the Old Testament, that I denounced my belief in God, in Jesus, in the bible. I was in that place for over a decade.

Thankfully, I happened upon a biblical scholar (Hebrew bible/Old Testament) who got me interested in some things and then got me hooked on his podcast, which addressed SO many questions I had always had but had NEVER been satisfactorily answered.

Give his podcast a look, if your mind or heart respond even a little to my post here(because I believe that would be God, trying to get your attention). His name is Michael Heiser, and his website is drmsh.com. drmsh.com...

His podcast is called The Naked Bible podcast. The first, I don’t know, 20 or so episodes, are pretty dry, as he was just starting and didn’t have help with the podcast part of it- but the info is still phenomenal. So if you listen to one of his early episodes and you think “this is lame,” know that it gets waaaaaay better. Browse through the episodes and see if any topics interest you.

a reply to: KansasGirl

Meeting God is an achievable feat. Don't think you yourself can't meet him. Last two times I 'bumped into him' were a complete surprise, but there was no doubt of it. The trick to it is being shown what to expect the first time. And to get there refer to Matthew 18:20.