Living in the Liminal

AT that moment, when the world around him melted away, when he stood alone like a star in the heavens, he was overwhelmed by a feeling of icy despair, but he was more firmly himself than ever. That was the last shudder of his awakening, the last pains of birth. Immediately he moved on again and began to walk quickly and impatiently, no longer homewards, no longer to his father, no longer looking backwards.
-Hesse, Siddhartha

Good morning/day, and wishing each and every ATSer a beautiful day.

I’m currently reading Siddhartha (a good read) with a good friend, and the passage quoted above sparked an interesting discussion that I decided to share here in hopes that the concept may resonate with some members, which is that of LIMINAL SPACE.



Liminal, which derives from the Latin word for “threshold,” refers to that space between, the doorway, that transformative moment between what was and what is yet to be. It can be imagined as a planted seed, an empty concert hall, a mouth right before it’s been kissed, a blank page, a sprawling path, a razed building, a shiny new tool. Liminality is an unformed thought, a primordial soup.

It’s a powerful place, but also one of tremendous discomfort. All that once was is gone, and the future is still out of reach. Now what?

I feel very strongly that our whole world is currently in a state of liminality.
As the above visual demonstrates, this space is one of uncertainty and it also represents the end (death) of what came before.
The quote I read on the subject which prompted me to write this thread really drove this idea home to me--particularly the last sentence. I’d really love to hear your thoughts on the subject, and whether you believe that in this moment, we have the opportunity to emerge on the other side more powerful than ever.

To get out of this unending cycle, we have to allow ourselves to be drawn into sacred space, into liminality. All transformation takes place here. We have to allow ourselves to be drawn out of "business as usual" and remain patiently on the "threshold" ( limen, in Latin) where we are betwixt and between the familiar and the completely unknown. There alone is our old world left behind, while we are not yet sure of the new existence. That's a good space where genuine newness can begin. Get there often and stay as long as you can by whatever means possible. It's the realm where God can best get at us because our false certitudes are finally out of the way. This is the sacred space where the old world is able to fall apart, and a bigger world is revealed. If we don't encounter liminal space in our lives, we start idealizing normalcy.

myemail.constantcontact.com...
“Normal” is fine, but is normal what drives us to evolve, to innovate, to remove the dead weight? I’d say not.

May we all emerge from this crazy zeitgeist refreshed and closer to the heart of the truth than ever before

That liminal space, sometimes referred to as the "now," is quite an interesting thing!

It has a sensation akin to falling and even has something of a "volume." The actual threshold/doorway itself, the filaments of potential right on one side and the cohered thread of the past after it has gone through the threshold.

A moment made up of the surface tension on each side as well as the space in between.

Its easy to get caught up in our thoughts alone, which take up little to no temporal volume, that we can forget the space in which our perception & will interact with the world. Many of the more mainstream meditative practices end up making this "worse" by attempting to eschew everything in this liminal space.

I believe that as a species, we will only build the foundation to realize our true potential through these spaces. We currently have many systems that do the opposite, frequently as exploitation. When we recognize our role as conduits between the field of chaos and the ordered universe, humanity will transform imo.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Hi Serdgiam

Thanks for another interesting reply.

I've been considering our conversation for a few days now (reply to your last message is still forthcoming), and it definitely fed into my thoughts on this topic as well. I actually need a bit more time to process your ideas about chaos/physicality/time.



In the meantime, I agree that humanity can only progress in this space, by allowing ourselves to exist in the nebulous and unformed.

a reply to: zosimov

The most intense time was when I was on my way moving to Nashville from Southern Calif. I packed everything into my '01 Ranger with 293,000m on it and headed out on the 8 East, not sure if I would make it in the June heat. Right around Tucson my AC went out in the 110 degree heat and the engine started to shudder. I made it to a run-down Motel in El Paso in one shot. That night I felt that alone-ness. Like I was floating in space watching the Earth, my family and all my friends shrink thru the window of my space helmet. I broke down and cried. I knew I had become something new. I had shed my old skin, my old life. I knew I would become something new. And I did. But in that moment I had not yet been fully birthed. The old me was dying.

a reply to: Serdgiam

I also really love the idea of humanity as a conduit between chaos and order. And that image of the frayed thread pulled through a needle's eye and emerging intact.

a reply to: NightVision

This is precisely the kind of moment I was referring to in the OP.

(and strikingly similar to that Siddhartha passage)

IMO, our society suffers from lack of a rite of passage, which might explain why it seems so lacking in wisdom some times.

I really must admit that I've never really left the familiar--"home" by my own volition w/o the intent of returning some day.

I still have plenty of lessons to learn.

a reply to: zosimov

Everything always unfolds perfectly. Trying to see what is or isn't there or forcing reality to create it distorts from the absolute truth that contains good, bad and ugly and it's all there if you accept why it belongs. Hide, change or lie about ANYTHING in the ORIGINAL source and reality becomes fantasy.

Every answer that every person could ever want is already there, we just have to be smart enough to think of and to ask the BEST questions to the best sources at the good times, not the MOST questions CONSTANTLY to AS MANY sources as possible, especially for personal affairs.

The ONLY things you can ever own are your thoughts and feelings. EVERYTHING ELSE IS BORROWED and you cannot change them from the original truth without a reminder that you did. Thus creating FANTASY.

Fantasy belongs inside us unless we play honestly with others. When you act out your fantasy in reality, it becomes part of the reality for all involved.

And be careful where you put your poo. It will become the world you live in and will define you whether you like it or not because the world will be a constant reminder of who you CHOOSE to be, not what you THINK you are. (Delusion, denial.)

Universal truth and common reality can ONLY be shaped together with equilibrium.

Self control the self, and one never needs to control anything. Those with little or no self control will usually believe they MUST control their environment instead. (Subconscious illusion of self control).

Just flow, with time, and space, with hindsight and vision for experience and forethought.

A time machine.

You can go backwards into your past memories and beyond through history and imagination to all you seek.

You can go forwards to later, tommorrow, next year or in a trillion years, it's all there to see.

Then, you realise who you are, who you were, what it is, has been , could be, may be, might be and will never be.

Then you make your choices because decisions present themselves more often, opportunities are more frequently recognised and a funny thing happens...

Even poo can shine because you found a nugget of gold in a nugget of poo.

I like poo with gold in it and if someone else refuses to even look, sadly, more for me and I'll share it elsewhere with those who don't want to suffer malfunction and just put it down to "the human condition".

The human condition has always been so flexible.

Who bends you and to what shape?

a reply to: zosimov

That message was rather densely packed lol A bit of an outpost on a journey to my perspective. Usually dont place said outpost so deeply into the woods, but figured youd appreciate it

I think that historically, the sort of shift we are talking about tends to be the result of individual "spiritual" endeavors.

If that particular approach was going to affect change en masse, I suspect it already would have. However, I believe we have a ton of different ways to get there in modern times.

Currently, most contructs for socialization amplify and reinforce a very specific perceptual framework. Usually revolving around focusing on the things that offend our sensibilties the most.

I suspect that modern communications and technology will just innately cultivate how people perceive the world.. But we can do it a lot differently than we do now. As it stands, it tends to be either completely unintentional or based on ad revenue systems.

Before too long, I fully expect our technology will become indistinguishable from magic and I think we should be prepared for what that means.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Ha, love that analogy of the outpost

Very interesting points about what social constructs mean today (attention drawn to what offends us, ad revenue, technology as magic). Thank you!!

Instead of 'world' translate it to 'beliefs' as in....

AT that moment, when all his beliefs melted away, when he stood naked like a star in the heavens, he was overwhelmed by a feeling of icy despair, but he was more firmly himself than ever.

Those beliefs empower the ego self.

Beautifully positive. I experience this line of thought a little differently though. In addition to facing our own mortality, we know Earth and the life on it has an expiration date. Barring interstellar travel & colonization being achieved--either before we destroy it ourselves or the cosmic life burns out--leaves some with an initial existential crisis of sorts.

As has basically been referenced here, an existential crisis is probably a blessing in disguise if we don't allow it to destroy us.

I've experienced that deep knowing & profound "everything's gonna be alright and mortal life ain't the end" that's called so many things by different people. Two times. It's glorious and life-changing. Is it real? Seems so, but rather hard to say. I'll take it though.

originally posted by: zosimov
IMO, our society suffers from lack of a rite of passage, which might explain why it seems so lacking in wisdom some times.

I think that this is what is most lacking in "civilisation". Life, and it's changes, both inner and outer, is not celebrated and so we emerge into adulthood, innocence lost, to the long trudge towards death. Religion doesn't ignite our spirit for life it only helps to prepares us for death and then we wonder why so many of our kids want to end their lives and get it over and done with. A rite of passage suggests an accomplishment, of successfully navigating life this far and the promise of the next set of challenges and future transitions. Life is a once treasured prize that civilisation has turned into a tacky mass produced plastic toy, easily disposed of.

Hesse always craved that something else, swung between despair and melancholy in search of those moments of utter stillness that he only found on his wanderings in nature far from other humans. He was always, I think, unhappily longing for something else except at those times. And he would find that moment, it would pass with the return of his longing then for human contact. Siddhartha I always felt was what he thought he wanted but in his heart knew he wasn't capable of achieving. He always turned back. Much depends upon what you're walking away from or to. Some people thrive on uncertainty due to a certainty in themselves. Hesse wasn't like that but he was creatively able to project that sense onto himself through Siddhartha, but it was fleeting. His writing is sublime, tranformative, but he never found what others find in his writing. Funny that. He kind of becomes through his work a liminal space, dust-strewn, abandoned and intimidating, to be passed through to emerge as something different on the other side. For me at least.

Thanks for the thread.

Enjoy the book, a good read indeed.

a reply to: The GUT

It almost seems like there is a litmus test in place before a species can gain genuine off-planet travel.

The tools that enable that travel are instrinsically so advanced that their weaponization could yield an ELE.

By design? Who knows.. But it certainly seems to be an effective way to prevent species from proliferating beyond their planet of origin without first "mastering" some level of cultural & social "innovation" to complement the more typical tool advancement.

Perhaps the same could be said for travel in other arenas that tend to be viewed as esoteric.

What a wonderful thread. Not sure how mindfulness or being self-aware without the trappings of the “self fits in, but I dig this idea of “liminality” and what the implications might be.

Thank you!

"Liminality" itself appears to be a broader topic than one might initially think. For those who haven't read it I--and many others here--highly recommend the following book (which discusses liminal concepts, liminal experiences & practices)

It's somewhat challenging but very rewarding imo.

The Trickster & The Paranormal by George P. Hansen

a reply to: zosimov

Not at all surprised (but pleased as usual) to read all of these intelligent and interesting responses.

Thanks, all! Hope to respond to some of these comments later.

a reply to: zosimov

Five general subject areas shaped the state of liminality in which we presently live, as thinkers of ATS, the birthplace of enlightened conspiratorialism theory in the Western world. Think about that - we ourselves are on the boundary layer of underground thought streams on the global stage.. Many, many more people read this site than contribute to it, and sometimes we may just be in a position to be taken seriously on important matters.. It probably doesn't happen often, but I can think of a couple of occasions in which I have been shocked & shaken by the sharpened edge of Reality which we have helped to grind for the benefit of everyone around us.


And so:

--- 2012 argumentalism on the state of the soul & what is meant by a discussion of Time & the Apocalypse.


--- Simulation Theory; fear & loathing in a trippy world of patronising scientists & mathematics gone too far..


--- The Mandela Effect, generative of a severe cognitive dissonance which has literally fractured the Reality in which we had formerly felt comfortable. The spectre of an old Nazi scheme, with all sorts of chicanery & evidence for survival of the Nazi regime in Latin America. Food for thought - was the Falklands war fought on the pretext that the British had to maintain a base of operations from which they could surveil the Argentine plains where the Fourth Reich held its main operations base, near Bariloche?


--- Flat Earth, Hollow Earth, Geometrical Paradoxical Earth, Fake Stars & possibly a Dome; Antigravity in the fifties & the Breakaway civilisation; To the Stars & the Tic Tac incident, Fake rockets & the Tesla Spaceman; severe NASA fakery, and a glorious caveat suggesting that maybe, just maybe, it's not quite as bad as it seems, despite our limited & somewhat forlorn perspective.. I have faith in the hereafter, but can we have faith in the here & now? For how long?

(NB - I will be authoring a thread on this 'caveat' soon)


--- Pizzagate, human trafficking, spirit cooking, gender insanity, "Rheeeeeee!" & the Jordan Peterson phenomenon, the Trump presidency & the associated ultra conspiracy of Q_Anon, lots of good works salted with riotous humour throughout the past four years, have to laugh because otherwise we'd cry - culminating in a rigged election & a Marxist president who seems to be mocking us not only by undoing all the reasonably good/awesome things done by Trump, but also with open comments on more than one occasion literally admitting that he has a predilection for pre-pubescent children, apparently making it clear that at the top of the tree 'they' don't actually mind if the most powerful man in the world is a dyed in the wool 'p..do..ile' in addition to being almost senile.

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These general subject areas have shaped our gestalt of the moment, and I agree we are living in a state of liminality, not knowing what comes next but certain that the old order has gone - it has been manipulated & cancelled. If we are to have any hope of coming out the other side of this thing, we're going to need barrels of faith & the wings of angels to speed us on. God help us as we take our first faltering steps in seeking to understand the bizarre & frightening reality that is made apparent when we look back to all of these subject areas & consider how our formerly comfortable mindset has fractured & left us in dire need of some sort of collective psychiatric help & support, along with emotional care & intellectual direction. We need big thinkers who dare to take steps into the unknown & prepare us for whatever challenges we face next. Are we living the first days of the Apocalypse? I sincerely hope not, but I wouldn't be too surprised if it's been unfolding since 2011...

Ten years in, and we're starting to feel the fear.

a reply to: zosimov

What if everything, on either side of liminality : is not 'real' ?

What if our deepest, darkest moments : are our most 'real' moments ?

What if total despair, and the absence of hope : is what's left after peeling-away all of the falseness of this 'world/existence/reality' ?

Is that which is built out of the ashes : 'reality' ?

Or are the ashes : 'reality' ?

a reply to: zosimov

Thanks for the thread, I really enjoyed reading all the replies, food fo thought indeed.

So can we emerge into the other side more powerful than ever? Well some of us certainly plan on doing so. For the rest of us it will be harder than ever under a tight system of surveillance and limited resources. As individuals we can and should work on self improvement as best we can, making the most out of the liminal space we find ourselves in. Because the other side doesn’t look good for the majority.

We are entering the forth industrial revolution, an economy based on resources and the artificial scarcity of such. As much as I don’t like consumerist materialism at least it allows for some autonomy, and freedom. I fear we have lived through the best of times and now we are facing a future where there simply won’t be enough to go round, so to speak.

a reply to: Nothin

You'll be pleased to know that those dark illusions are NOT the underlying plane of Reality. In all seriousness & truth, what underlies Reality is actually the presence of God. There is a limited but active presence of Satanic powers in the world, which have some capacity for controlling the minds of their victims. Such people are oppressed with different layers of severity depending on individual circumstances.

If you've been feeling at all like the person with the experience you described in the post to which I'm replying, I would humbly recommend that in your own words, from your own heart, in light of all the difficulties & pain you have experienced in life, simply reach out your mind & heart to ask God to come into your life, to fill your heart & mind with the power of His Spirit.

In whatever way you might have reached out in this personal way I have described, you can be assured that God will respond to any genuine call for help & support, by reaching out & taking you by the hand, leading you into a new life as a child of God, with new hopes & dreams, with new emotions indwelling your body, mind & soul.

God bless you, I hope you have the confidence to reach out as I've described.

I realise there may be a chance that your post was sarcastic, but even if it was, perhaps you might consider reaching out all the same, just to see if perhaps you were wrong about the path of the humble love of God & our neighbour.