Is it So Hard to Believe?

a reply to: DISRAELI

You raise some good points.

Also the issue of judgement. Of course there is the gospel teaching of forgiveness, but not believing in a God with the authority to judge gets people off the hook more quickly.

The power of forgiveness is life-changing for those who reach out and practice cultivating a relationship with God through Christ.

IMO, it's hard to make sense of that side of faith unless someone has reached the depths of despair and sincerely starts to practice owning up to all the times they have missed the mark. It shouldn't take hitting rock bottom to ask ourselves the hard questions about our role in all the tough lessons that life has tried to teach us.

Those who find themselves there can often lose hope of ever feeling whole or experiencing any sort of healthy relationship with the Almighty. Belief in Jesus Christ's example, teachings, and the Holy Spirit offers a chance of redemption for those who would otherwise be abandoned to darkness.

It's challenging to open up about the scars the faithful carry. The humble believers who quietly practice doing their best to make a difference, come to mind when I think of those who have come to Christ in this way. Their actions speak louder than words. Imo, they lead through example...

a reply to: ketsuko
Indeed. In addition, they didn't trust God enough to follow his will instead of their own.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DISRAELI

The whole issue in the Garden with the temptation in the first place was who was better to judge right and wrong? Was it God or mankind (i.e. you personally)? It was on that question humankind fell because Eve felt she was a better judge than God.

I have to say that the appalling lack of judicial representation, a jury of peers or any semblance of due process forced me to doubt the ethics of your so called "judge". But maybe our justice system is doing it wrong.

a reply to: TzarChasm
Due process is necessary because of the limitations in human knowledge.
You are addicted to the false analogy.

originally posted by: incoserv

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: MidnightHawk
Honestly, the question is redundant. The majority of the worlds population believes in a deity we generically call God, but by other names depending on the culture you were raised in. What is hard to believe is that only your religion got it right and all the others got it wrong.

There can be only one version of the truth. Truth by it's very nature is exclusive. If you doubt that, just try taking the wallet of someone who says that truth is relative; tell them it's your truth that their money belongs to you and you'll see how far that relative truth thing goes.

If truth about a few dollars in your pocket is non-negotiable, then cosmic truth about the origins of the universe and the purpose of existence would be even more so. There can't be multiple and conflicting versions of the truth, else it ceases to be truth.

It, then, become incumbent on each individual to seek out truth. Some will get it wrong. Everyone can't be right.
:

I would contend that truth is explicit instead of exclusive and that God is as mysterious as his magnificent creation, a common theme despite the inaccuracies detailed in the various conflicting tomes.

I like the cut of your jib friend.
Your words resonate a pleasing harmonic.
a reply to: dffrntkndfnml

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DISRAELI

The whole issue in the Garden with the temptation in the first place was who was better to judge right and wrong? Was it God or mankind (i.e. you personally)? It was on that question humankind fell because Eve felt she was a better judge than God.

I have to say that the appalling lack of judicial representation, a jury of peers or any semblance of due process forced me to doubt the ethics of your so called "judge". But maybe our justice system is doing it wrong.

Absolutely doing it wrong. Remember afluenza? OJ Simpson? The devil is in the details. Evil is a legal entity.’ For your own good ‘ is the alibi of tyrants.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: TzarChasm
Due process is necessary because of the limitations in human knowledge.
You are addicted to the false analogy.

Due process is not necessary because of the limitations of human knowledge. It is necessary to guarantee the most honorable examination and analysis of the factual context for what crime did or did not happen. Of course, what use does a theocratic dictatorship have for democratic principles and basic human rights? They are fundamentally at odds.

"God doesn't answer to human laws" Then how the hell are we supposed to trust him?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
It is necessary to guarantee the most honorable examination and analysis of the factual context for what crime did or did not happen...

... because of the limitations of human knowledge.
Yes. you're just repeating what I said.

a reply to: TzarChasm

If you have faith, then you know God is perfect. Why does a perfect being need due process, jury, etc.? He knows, and He is always right.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: TzarChasm
It is necessary to guarantee the most honorable examination and analysis of the factual context for what crime did or did not happen...

... because of the limitations of human knowledge.
Yes. you're just repeating what I said.

So by your logic, the All Father was in possession of perfect complete knowledge of the entire situation. This does not make him a judge, it makes him a mastermind. He engineered the crime scene from top to bottom. He created the talking serpent, he installed absolutely no security in the garden, he designed two very naive and gullible human beings, and he made absolutely no attempts to forestall or prevent the eventuality he apparently anticipated before he ever laid the first stone or turned on the first light.

In other words, if God really really really wants you to f*** up, how are you supposed to succeed?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TzarChasm

If you have faith, then you know God is perfect. Why does a perfect being need due process, jury, etc.? He knows, and He is always right.

"Why does a perfect being need due process" Because we are a constitutional democracy. It almost sounds like you are fully accepting of authoritarian practices but only under the right dictator.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Pretty slick how you fail to mention Jesus once....

Really, really strange....or is it?

a reply to: MidnightHawk

Did you mean to quote me on that? If so I refer you to the OP you are quite mistaken.

True. It would appear that God engineered the act of his creation experiencing creation.
Set the world as a stage and let his actors be ejected into it, framed and shamed from the garden of Eden to ad lib.
a reply to: TzarChasm

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TzarChasm

If you have faith, then you know God is perfect. Why does a perfect being need due process, jury, etc.? He knows, and He is always right.

This is quite correct.

The Bible makes it clear that the universal issue of God's right to rule and his sovereignty is not just an earthly issue. The rebellion began int he spirit realm, and not just one angel turned bad. Revelation reveals that a 1/3 of the angels sided with Satan in his rebellion. Obviously that is a minority, so we take heart in knowing that a big majority of angels remained faithful. We don't know how many angels God made, there are references in the Bible to myriads of myriads of angels standing before God. A myriad is 10,000. 10,000 x 10,000 is 100,000,000. So there are at least 100s of millions of angels. Of course there could be far more.

The allowance of the passage of time and Satan's rule over the earth, and mankind's rebellion and refusal to listen to God and his law has proven the issues raised in the Garden of Eden: Is God a liar? Is his rule the best? And will all humans rebel against God?

Jesus nailed the stake into the coffin of the rebel angels when he freely died as a perfect human, ransoming the perfect life that was lost.

The universal court that God in his wisdom set up was to allow both humankind and his spirit creatures to see the outcome of rebellion.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

It is God's right and only His right to judge from the seat. Christ sits on that throne, but the trinity makes it clear that Son and the Father are one.

Now if you want to know about your parking ticket? You get judge and jury in the civil court down the street. If you want to know if you're being damned to hell for all eternity? I'd rather opt for the one who is perfect.

As those of you who lean left are fond of pointing out - there are innocent men on death row.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

The beginning of sovereign authority is the end of civil rights. They simply cannot exist in the same society together. Even if the Hebrew narrative were plausible in part or in whole, the ideology is in direct conflict with our principles as a republic.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TzarChasm

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

It is God's right and only His right to judge from the seat. Christ sits on that throne, but the trinity makes it clear that Son and the Father are one.

Now if you want to know about your parking ticket? You get judge and jury in the civil court down the street. If you want to know if you're being damned to hell for all eternity? I'd rather opt for the one who is perfect.

As those of you who lean left are fond of pointing out - there are innocent men on death row.

In my humble opinion, you have to be a very angry & sadistic person to buy into the idea that a lake of fire is appropriate as a punishment device. That's not justice, it's torture and malice. It's what an evil person would do to their enemies.

How do you know there aren't any innocent souls in hell? And how do you know that heaven hasn't accepted any villains inside its walls?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: MidnightHawk

The beginning of sovereign authority is the end of civil rights. They simply cannot exist in the same society together. Even if the Hebrew narrative were plausible in part or in whole, the ideology is in direct conflict with our principles as a republic.

God rule has no human ruler. In fact all humans under God rule are free. There is no monetary system, there are no leaders or rulers. Everyone will do as they please. The only law will be that of love. Love of God and love of neighbor.

Jesus Christ will rule as king over the earth for 1,000 years. His rule will be far superior than any form of human government in existence. He is a king, merciful, generous and loving king. And he is just and righteous and can read the heart. And he has the unlimited power of God's holy spirit, and the wisdom of untold years of life. He can and will end all suffering, wars, crime, violence, pain, disease, natural disasters. He will judge with righteousness:

And the spirit of Jehovah will settle upon him,
The spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
The spirit of counsel and of mightiness,
The spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.
 3 And he will find delight in the fear of Jehovah.
He will not judge by what appears to his eyes,
Nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear.
 4 He will judge the lowly with fairness,
And with uprightness he will give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth
And put the wicked to death with the breath of his lips.
 5 Righteousness will be the belt around his waist,
And faithfulness the belt of his hips.

-Isaiah 11:2-5.

And when the 1,000 year rule is over and Jesus brings death to nothing he will turn the kingdom back over to his Father, and subject himself to his God and our God so that God may become all things to all people:

Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

-1 Corinthians 24-28.

You see God is a God of freedom and liberty. His rule will be far superior, far freer than any known in the world in existence. And the untold blessings and bliss humans will live in are not even in our minds to understand yet:

"“Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him."-1 Corinthians 2:9.

a reply to: MidnightHawk

More authoritarian propaganda cleverly disguised as spiritual enlightenment and salvation.

Do you actually care WHY people reject this narrative? Was this honestly an attempt to engage in dialogue or just an excuse to talk about how cool your imaginary friend is?

a reply to: Bleeeeep

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Yea, pretty stupid thing to do. When's the day of evil?