Terri Schiavo - A Moral Crossroads

Originally posted by Carseller4

Death-row inmates are not given sentences of "starvation". Even though it wouldn't be a bad idea. There is a little thing called "cruel and unusual punishment". If would be more humane to give her a lethal injection, than to allow her to starve to death.

We would be allowed to give her a lethal injection, but pro-life groups intervened during the Kevorkian trials. Because of the pro-lifers, starvation is now the only acceptable method, rather than lethal injection.

Meddling do gooders or feckless thugs, doesn't matter. Neither one lives in the real world, in any classical sense. Like overgrown children, they demand immediate satisfaction for their moral appetites, hypocrisy dribbling down their greedy, well fed little gullets. They live in the "now", certainly not the "tomorrow", and they never comprehend the ramifications of their actions.

Well, here we are. Lethal Injection would be the most painless, most efficient way to put Terry Schiavo out of her misery, but we are now not allowed to employ that particular weapon in our arsenal. Because, it's not a natural way to die. Supposedly, starvation is.

So, christians and pro-lifers, wherever you are. The next time you feel compelled to open said gullets and rain down these impressive bits of nuggets from the deepest crevices of your soul, just remember.

This is your fault. You chose the chose the hardway for immediate gain, and this is the net result.

I think that the whole story of Terri is so sad. Of course I don't know her, but I would think that if she were back alert, the way she was prior to her current condition, she would probably be appalled at the fact that she has been flaunted across the televisions, with that look on her face, supposedly following a baloon, laughing supposedly at a joke, etc.... I bet that also, she would not have wanted for her family to go through all the anguish that they have, and still are.

I don't know what should be done, only she can say - but she can't say. It does go to show that any one of us, could at any time end up in a similar situation. I personally have a living will, and I don't try to tell other people what they should do, but.....it's something to think about.

"I categorise myself as a liberal and all those cliches but I now see a little deeper into those who are very pro-life and I hope they can
see into my psyche just enough to see why I believe in choice and freeing someone from pain and suffering.

Its a difficult thing for me to make a decision on, I don't want someone to suffer in pain and remain in a vegetable state for their life but
at the same time I can't sanction euthanasia on such a paper thin case.

It's a turning point for America. She's educating all of us. " === Nerdling

Your self category is verifiable by almost any of your posts, but the statement itself from a "respected" member hints of the "Black Band"
syndrome. Had you left the political "hit" out, that was a remarkable posting.
I dont surf here much these days cause I mine for really good insites. Like the last two sentences of yours I quoted. Truly incredible.
But also sad in a way. Not long ago, this place was sparkling with gems such as these. These days I have to pan thru dinosaur dung to find one.
But I do attempt to trade insite for insite so here goes.
Assuming you are still in the UK, you may not be aware of the historical legalities of the Schiavo case.
A little research into the medical liability award Terri's husband recieved "to take care of her for life" might make you ill. Plus it gets
worse. Are you a fan of "Judge Dredd" ? Uh....strike that. Why do you suppose the (US media) has two items in hot focus this day,
Terri Schiavo and Jessica Lunsford ?

Originally posted by Nerdling
The permanent brain damage resulted from a chemical
imbalance after a heart attack I believe.

Terri Schiavo has NEVER BEEN TESTED to see what, if any,
perm. brain damage has been done. Here is a quote from
Sen. Frist - who is a medical doctor and who understands
these things - He is talking about Terri Schiavo.

Frist said on the Senate floor. "In fact -- this is what I'm told -- that she
hasn't had an MRI or PET scan which suggests she has not had a full
neurological exam."

Her husband wouldn't allow any brain scans. He just set to work
trying to get her killed off as soon as he won the malpractice case.


[edit on 3/19/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Nerdling
But I think that --by law-- she cannot be given
lethal injection as that is tantamount to execution.

By INTERNATIONAL law she can't be starved to death either.
Civilians can't be starved in war or in peace ....

www.newsmax.com...

Excerpt

Newsmax.com
March 12, 2005
Rights Groups Mum on Schiavo's Torture

Court-approved plans to starve a brain-damaged Florida woman to death
later this month have prompted no outrage from human rights groups -
even though, under international law, forced starvation is considered a
form of torture.

Articles 14 and 54 of the Geneva protocols, however, also expressly
prohibit the starvation of non-combatants - even in wartime conditions:

"Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare is prohibited," states Article
54. "The prohibition on using starvation against civilians is a rule from
which no derogation may be made. A form of words whereby it would
have been possible to make an exception in case of imperative military
necessity was not adopted."

Article 14 of the Geneva protocols states: "It should be noted that even if
starvation were not subject to an official legal prohibition, it is nowadays
no longer an acceptable phenomenon, irrespective of how it arises [natural
disaster or induced by man]."

According to medical experts, after her feeding tube is removed, Mrs.
Schiavo will experience extreme pain and significant psychological distress
during the two weeks that her starvation-execution is expected to take.
Her skin, tongue and lips will crack due to dehydration. Schiavo will likely
suffer chronic nosebleeds as mucous membranes dry out, followed by
heaving and vomiting as the stomach lining dries out. Her mouth is
expected to develop painful ulcers. As Schiavo's brain is deprived of fluid,
she is expected to suffer grand mal seizures.

Originally posted by brimstone735
Because of the pro-lifers, starvation is now the
only acceptable method ...

No. LIFE is the only acceptable method... Life with the
brain scan she should have received but the husband
wouldn't allow. Life with the physical therapy she should
have received but the husband wouldn't allow. Life with
dental care that she should have received but that the
husband didn't allow so her teeth turned black and
'disappeared' (fell down her throat). LIFE is the only
acceptable thing in this case.

I really don't know what the facts are in this case and what is partisan posturing. It seems that the parents are being used by religious groups and others with a right-to-life agenda. It also seems as if the parents are resentful of the fact that the husband has moved on, which is pretty common. A good friend of mine experienced something similar after his wife died unexpectedly from a aneurysm and he remarried three years later--his late wife's family tried to have their grandchild removed from his home for no other reason than they were upset that he wasn't still in mourning.

But the Schiavo case should be none of our business precisely because we will never know all of the facts and it is decision that should be between the family and thier doctors. We don't know what the doctors believe is the true prognosis and we don't know what the true situation is--everything that is in the media is partisan BS. I feel for the parents because it is heartbreaking to see a child go through this, but I suspect they are manipulating facts out of desperation and fear at this point. And all of the so-called pundits that are throwing their two cents in are just as uninformed as we are.

We should all just back off and let this family heal itself and move on with their lives. If we should take anything away from this case, it should be the need for everyone to have in place a living will. Having just gone through an estate planning session with both of my parents, it was difficult to discuss the specific conditions under which they would want life-support discontinued, but it was something that needed to be done to ensure that their wishes would be followed.

The same holds true for people that wish to remain on life support indefinitely. If this is your will--make sure you put it in writing because once you are incapacitated, it will be too late. Societal politics play a part in personal choice and although living wills aren't foolproof, they can at least speak for you when you can't speak for yourself.

if
she's
S O
"brain
dead"
why
do
her
heat
and
lungs
function
so
well
without
machines??

They never offered her precious soul rehab, only treatment...ie feeding tubes.

And her "loving" husband is the one to thank for that as he REFUSED her the treatment that could have helped her. He is NOT remarried, but is in a common law relationship with 2 kids. There is plenty of evidence that could point to HIM being the reason Terri is in the condition she is in, yet no one will look into it, because he is using legal means to protect himself...and that is the very same system he is using to hide his possible involvement in causing Terri's condition.

There is plenty of documentation from attending nurses, family, and people that have Terri's best interests in mind stating the woman is NOT in a totally vegitative state, that she is, and has responded to those that treat her with kindness and she has even attempted to communicate. But, her "husband", in name only, want's her dead and buried. Judge Greer and his misogynistic tendencies, according to information coming to light, have only allowed this scheme to be carried out in it's entirety.

She is still a feeling human being. She felt the pain of the tube removal, she will feel the pain that comes with each stage of starving to death.

Yes, this is a case of Moralistic values...but it is also a case that should make every human being think about making their wishes MORE THAN CLEAR in a LEGAL WAY as to what they will do should something like this happen to them.

In the end, the only one making the decisions who should live or who should die and how it will happen should be GOD.

~oracle

I find it ironic that several courts have found in favor of killing Terry by way of starvation, meanwhile, another court recently ruled that a fertility clinic that accidentally discarded a 5 day old embryo can be sued for wrongful death.

I also wonder why it is ok to allow a person to die of starvation who is in a vegetative state, but not comatose, yet if the caregiver of a severely retarded child or adult chose to allow nature to take its course by depriving them of food and water, we would call the caregiver a monster and charge them with murder.

What is the difference between the two scenarios? Why would the first act of starvation be ok but the second instance be murder?

I just hope to God if I'm ever in that boat that my wife will listen to my wishes to not life on a machine or live life brain dead and I hope she wouldn't be attacked by the world that didn't agree. Who are we to say her husband isn't doing what she wanted done is anyone denying that she didn't what to live on a machine I for one don't care what kind of machine if it was a machine then I would rather die!

I am only now reading up on the case. My understanding is that her estate is worth over a million dollars, or will be once she vacates it. Her husband is still legally married to her, even though he's been cohabitating with another woman for years, and even has had to children by his "new" love interest.

It also seems that tests have never been run to see if she IS in fact either suffering or brain-dead. The husband has control over her medical treatment.

It also seems that there is some question as to how she came to be in this state---supposedly is could have been caused by heart attack; but also by suffocation or several different poisons....

So why don't the rest of her family try this:

Get the District attorney to impanel a grand jury. Ask for permission to pursue a case against the husband. You don't have to PROVE it to the G.J.; just present enough information to proceed.

Next, have Terri held "against her will" as a material witness in her husband's malfeasance, attempt on her life. Spousal privelege is null when one spouse is a victim. And the courts have ruled that if a spouse can be held as a "hostile witness," (against her own will), then she can be held against her legal guardian's will as well.

Originally posted by Kramthenothing
I just hope to God if I'm ever in that boat that my wife will listen to my wishes to not life on a machine or live life brain dead and I hope she wouldn't be attacked by the world that didn't agree.

Run, don't walk...you better get this in writing.
If we learn nothing else from this, we must act so it doesn't happen to us. There's software out there, you can probably do it yourself.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I am only now reading up on the case. My understanding is that her estate is worth over a million dollars, or will be once she vacates it. Her husband is still legally married to her, even though he's been cohabitating with another woman for years, and even has had to children by his "new" love interest.

*SNIP*
It also seems that there is some question as to how she came to be in this state---*SNIP*

There's WAY too much about this case that we do not know. Personally, I don't believe much of it.
We haven't seen any medical documents. We don't know facts about finances--or how she could have such a large estate with such large medical bills. We haven't seen any current pictures. We have no impartial evidence. We don't know how much of this is staged. Or what the real agenda is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

FWIW, allegedlyl, she had an eating disorder that caused her heart to stop, something like that, but who knows what really happened.
I have a hard time believing reasonable tests were NOT done when she was first admitted.
At the risk of passing on more iffy information, I heard on a radio program that she may have to have some sort of amputation in the next few years as her body continues to atrophy.


[edit on 19-3-2005 by DontTreadOnMe]

for free from any hospital or doctors office.

I filled one out before traveling overseas recently.

In Texas we have

DNR (do not resuscitate) orders. Telling what SPECIFIC heroic methods you desire to have used on you.

Advance Directive. Telling your Doctor (any doctor) specifically who is in charge of your care under what circumstances, and the limits of their power.

My own will has a codicil covering my own treatment, as well as treatment of my children while they are minors. I have even included who controls my estate until they come of age. This way, no one family member will be suspected of trying to "get at" the money or the kids.

I am way more worried about something happening to me and Frau Dr., and the kids growing up in a way we don't want---or worse, someone taking guardianship of them solely so that they can administer our estate.

It happens every day. It is what I suspect of this poor woman's husband.


BTW, I bought a cheapo do-it-yourself will kit and filled it out. I asked my attourney what he thought. He said you don't even need to spend $20 on the kit in Texas. Just go to your county court's library and look up "wills." The clerk can show you where to find it under "prayers and common pleas."

You can do the whole thing yourself for free. Actually, I paid the clerk $5 to notorize our wills for us.

It took less than a day.

Plus, you get to storm around the house saying "one more wise crack from you, and I'm CHANGING THE WILL!!!!!!!"

All I see is how the media and certain groups has taken the pain and suffering of a family and has made it into a circus for the entire nation.

At the end is not about the poor women, is not about the husband and either is about the parents.

All is about for those certain groups to win points on their already in the works agendas.

We are all falling for it, while we debate and get into heated debates, the ones working behind the scene are reaping the results of their labors just to get us to this point.

What a shame.

So Marg, you're saying the media should just shut up and let Terri's husband kill her and take the money that was meant to take care of her in peace and without public dissent?

Originally posted by djohnsto77
So Marg, you're saying the media should just shut up and let Terri's husband kill her and take the money that was meant to take care of her in peace and without public dissent?

Sorry but this issue does not merit a hot debate and I am not going for your bait, perhaps somebody else will do it.

Have a nice try.

She is a victim of modern medicine. Period the end. If this would have happened 100 years ago she would have died that day. Yes, life is precious. But medicine is playing god by keeping her alive. She would have never survived. The only reason she is kept alive is because her parents won't let her go to god. She has 0 quality of life. She is a living body function. I would hate that. Bless her precious heart, it's time for her to go home. There will be no miracle where she makes a full recovery, mean as that sounds. God called for her to come home 15 years ago. Science made her stay.

Margie, Margie ... we are speaking about a woman being left to starve to death. We are not talking about euthanasia, we are talking about a woman who can breathe by herself being straved to death. Where do we draw the line in the quality of life argument. Do we starve kids with downes syndrome? The quadriplegic? et etc... its not a political or media issue its about a woman's life and ending it in extreme pain.

Sorry the issue of this poor women is for the family and husband to fight over no you me or the media circus, politicians or interest groups.

Regardless of my feeling or yours is a none of my business or any body else but the family in question.

Like I said groups are taking advantage of this issue and the situation of the grieving family.

That is a shame.