Revelation, pandemic, vaccination

This is something of an "emergency" thread, because people are beginning to want to apply the book of Revelation to the present situation in the world, and I need to offer my own take on two key points.

I was offering threads covering the whole of Revelation for more than twelve months (the late nights nearly killed me) in 2010-11. I was arguing consistently against over-enthusiastic attempts to find features of Revelation in current events. I kept pointing out that most of the book is about God's reaction to the persecution of the church, and our need to remain faithful during that time. As long as we are not living in a time of global church persecution, most of Revelation remains in our future.

The two points I would want to make now, repeating things I have said before, are these;
a) There is a possibility (but only a possibility) that the pandemic itself is one of the "four horsemen" of ch6
b) For that reason, and for other reasons, vaccination is NOT "the mark of the beast".

On the first point, the four horsemen are traditionally (and rightly, I believe) identified as Pestilence, War, and Famine, with Death following on behind to pick up the corpses resulting from the other three. The overall impact of the combination is what makes it different from previous pestilences, wars, and famines. Back in March, I warned ATS that "the events of Revelation begin with a pandemic", and I will re-post that statement below.

On the second point, vaccination is not the mark of the beast because it does not have the right function, and the timing is all wrong.
The mark of the beast comes at a time when the persecution of the church is in full sway, and its function is the identify the friends of the persecutor and the enemies of God. I've seen no reports that anyone who takes the vaccination will be required to renounce the Biblical God and worship something else instead.
Also my take on the basic narrative of Revelation is that the rise of the beast is one of the side-effects of the four horsemen. The beast is whichever power recovers first and then leads the world into recovery, and the persecution itself comes at a later stage. So the mark of the beast is necessarily much later than the pandemic. Certainly not simultaneous.

I will also re-post below what I previously wrote about the mark of the beast.

On the second point, vaccination is not the mark of the beast because it does not have the right function, and the timing is all wrong.

And the mark has to be taken willfully , knowing what it represents .

That is to say, the sequence of public events on earth begins with a pandemic.
The first three chapters set the terms of the problem, as it were.
They present the situation which the church is facing in the world, where there is tribulation in the form of persecution.

The next two chapters show us God, in his power, and express his determination to put things right.
The “slain Lamb” has earned the right to open the scroll of history, and that’s the act which sets in motion the rest of Revelation.

As each seal is broken, the events of the sixth chapter are released into the world.
Each of the four “living creatures” standing around God’s throne summons out one of the “four horsemen of the apocalypse”.
The traditional understanding of these four horsemen was that they represented “Pestilence, War, Famine, and Death”.
We’re concerned, for the moment, with the identification of the first horseman as “Pestilence”, or “Plague”.

The clue is in the fact that the first horseman carries a bow.
In the religion of ancient Greece, this was the weapon of the plague-and-healing god Apollo, “the god who strikes from afar”.
There’s an episode at the beginning of Homer’s Iliad, in which his flying arrows are wreaking havoc in the Greek camp;
“The arrows rattled on the shoulders of the angry god as he moved, and his coming was like the night. Then he sat down apart from the ships and let fly an arrow; terrible was the twang of the silver bow…then on the men themselves he let fly his stinging arrows and struck; and ever did the pyres of the dead burn thick. For nine days the missiles of the god ranged through the army…”- Iliad, Book One, ll45-53
This is the description of a plague.

The same image is to be found in the Psalms;
“You will not fear the terror of the night,
Nor the arrow that flies by day,
Nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness,
Nor the destruction that wastes at noonday”- Psalm 91 vv5-6
Bearing in mind how Hebrew poetry likes to say the same thing in different ways, we can understand this as the same picture that Homer is using.

It’s an association of ideas which the ancient world would have recognised, and that’s why it appears in this vision.

The “conquering” of the first horseman can hardly be human conquest, for then there would be no difference between the first horseman and the second horseman, who “takes peace from the earth”.
But “conquest” is a very appropriate way of describing the devastating effect of a widely-spreading pestilence- what we in the modern world would call a pandemic.

The picture in this chapter is that the four horsemen are coming in quick succession.
The three causes of death- Plague, War, and Famine- fan out across the world, while “Death” itself follows on close behind them to pick up the corpses

It’s easy to imagine how there might be a “feedback” effect.
As these disasters are developing and merging into one another, they might be helping to aggravate one another.
The social effects of a really serious pandemic would be “taking peace from the earth”.
In the early stages, particularly weakened countries might be attacked by opportunistic neighbours.
But a more general social breakdown, if things got that far, would itself be a loss of “peace”.
All modern cities, and some entire countries, depend upon the food they bring in from elsewhere.
So a general social breakdown, by disrupting the growing of food and the transportation of food, would aggravate any shortages.
Any shortage of food would aggravate the loss of peace, by giving people something to fight over, at national and at street level.
A general social breakdown, in the middle of a time of death, could also result in dead bodies remaining unburied, and then we’re back at pestilence again.

In the sixth chapter of Revelation, Death is given power over “a quarter of the earth”.

But the sixth chapter is by no means the last chapter in the story.
This time of devastation comes to a end.
The forces of destruction are “put on hold” (ch7 v1).
The world is able to take a breather.

THEN, and only then, does the power of “the Beast” arise, and the story of Revelation comes to a climax in the later chapters.

My interpretation of the sequence is that the appearance of the Beast is the natural product of the world’s experience of the “Four Horsemen”.
The Beast would be able to rise to power on the strength of leading and organising the world into recovering from the catastrophe.
If the first Beast of ch13 is a political state, then the apparent “mortal wound” could be the way it collapses, or even disintegrates, along with the rest of the world, under the impact of the “Four Horsemen” events.
The “healing” of the mortal wound would then be an unexpected and vigorous recovery, arousing both the astonishment and the enthusiasm of the world at large, as the recovery of this body pulls along the rest of the world and brings the social order back to life.

All this, if my theory is right, following on from the arrival of a pandemic.

I should add that I don’t categorically claim any current epidemic as the “first horseman”.
In fact the “first horseman” should not have arrived yet; the events of Revelation are depicted in the first few chapters as God’s response to the tribulation of the church, which triggers them off.
I’m not convinced that the tribulations of the church at large have reached that kind of level.

Nevertheless, it’s as well to be aware of the possibilities.
Taken separately, Plague and War and Famine are all obvious threats and frequently discussed on these forums.
This chapter simply combines them together, and also (by implication) relates the resulting time of catastrophe to the later growth of “world government”, which is another ATS area of interest.
And if the prophecies of Revelation are going to be fulfilled at all, this sixth chapter is the first portion of the book that we should expect to see reflected in current events.

So there we have it.
The public events of Revelation begin with a pandemic.
We are currently in the early stages of a pandemic.
Even if it is not the same one, it is precisely the kind of event that anyone who takes the book seriously needs to be looking out for.

he first clue is the timing of the Mark.

The timing is very clear, and very important.
The first Beast, the world-state, comes to power in vv4-7.
The second Beast, the world-leader and antichrist, appears from v12.
Then the second Beast compels the worship of the first Beast (and acceptance of his own authority).
He's allowed to "give breath to the image of the Beast...and to cause those who would not worship the image to be slain".

It is at THIS point that he begins to require the Mark.
The obvious purpose is to identify those who are willing (or unwilling) to worship the Beast.
The context identifies it as a deliberate sign of loyalty.

The second clue is the location of the Mark.

"On the right hand or the forehead".
These places have symbolic meaning.
They are the places where God wanted his people to keep his laws- Deuteronomy ch6 v8
The Pharisees obeyed the command with phylacteries and scripture texts, but they were surely missing the point (this is one of the hazards of excessive literalism).
I believe what God really meant was that he wanted his people to keep his Law at the forefront of their minds.

The implication of putting the Mark in the same place is that obedience to God has been replaced by obedience to the Beast.
(There's also the possibility that slaves were marked in this way to identify their owners)
So it isn't necessary to take the location literally- we can focus on the symbolic meaning that the Mark indicates a loyalty to the Beast which replaces loyalty to God.

The next clue is the form of the Mark.

We're told that the Mark would be the name of the Beast or the number of its name. In theory, the latter would be "666". But is this plausible, in practice, when the number itself is already so notorious? We understand that the second Beast would be someone claiming to be the returned Christ, and he would surely want people to believe him. If he openly used the number 666, he would be advertising himself as an imitation. So nobody would apply that number to him except his enemies (which would make it a dangerous graffito to paint on the walls).

So the point must be that "name or number" must link the wearers to the identity of the Beast, whatever that identity might be. I've expressed my thoughts elsewhere about the kind of ruler that would be indicated by the number "666".

The fourth clue is the social effect of the Mark.

Since the Mark identifies the willing worshippers of the Beast, the absence of the Mark identifies the stubborn people who reject his claims. We're told that they won't be allowed to "buy or sell".

In other words, they will experience a boycott. A well-organised boycott is devastating in its effects, as the eponymous Captain Boycott discovered. It works by marshalling the social majority against a social minority (like the Jews in Nazi Germany), which makes it a perfect instrument of persecution.

The social effect of the Mark is that it protects people from this treatment, because it identifies tham as worshippers of the Beast and therefore loyal members of society.

The final clue is the spiritual effect of the Mark.

The next time we meet the people wh were "given the Mark" is in ch14 v10, when we're told that they must "drink the wine of God's wrath". In other words, God now identifies them as his enemies.

That follows naturally from the fact that taking the Mark involves choosing loyalty to the Beast, the enemy of God. So taking the Mark is a decision against God, which God recognises as such.

But if the Mark is such a reliable indicator of loyalty that it can be decisive even in the eyes of God, there are certain conditions which it must be able to meet;

The condition of voluntary loyalty (it can't be forced on you). Because if it could be imposed by physical force, then it would not be a genuine test of your loyalty.

The condition of conscious loyalty (you must be aware of what you're doing). Because if it could be imposed by any kind of deception or trickery, then it would not be a genuine test of your loyalty.

These two conditions together add up to the principle of "informed choice", as they call it in the medical world.

One of the implications of the second condition is a third condition;
The condition of timing (the Mark cannot be offered until there s a visible Beast to receive the loyalty). Which is precisely what we've already discoverd in the passage, that the Beast came first and THEN enforced a symbol of loyalty to himself.

One of the further implications is that nobody has committed himself to the Beast if he innocently receives something which is later identified as the Mark of the Beast.
I can illustrate the point by the analogy of the swastika. This was used in India for centuries before the Nazis, and Rudyard Kipling used to put it on the covers of his books. I've got one in front of me now- The Jungle Book, printed 1932. There it is, on the front cover, next to an elephant's profile. But the Indians and Kipling did not become Nazis by using the symbol. My father did not become a Nazi by receiving the book as a school prize, and I don't become one (even now) by having it on my bookshelves.
In other words, there can be no such thing as accidentally receiving the Mark and giving your loyalty to the Beast.

We're now in a position to put together a defintion of the mark, which helps us to identify it.
I've established that the Mark is a sign of loyalty to the Beast.
I've established that it must represent a voluntary and conscious loyalty (since, otherwise, it would not incur the wrath of God).
Most interpretations of the two Beasts will apply the term "antichrist" to one of them (the second one, as far as I'm concerned), and the meaning of the word "antichrist" is "someone who claims to be the returned Christ".
Therefore we can add that the meaning of the Mark would have to include the recognition of those claims.

Putting those components together;
The Mark of the Beast is that symbol or set of symbols which indicates a voluntary and conscious loyalty to the Beast and/or that world-leader openly claiming to be the returned Christ

a reply to: Gothmog
Quite right. See the re-post two posts below yours.

By the way, to the member who sent me a PM. I've replied, but you may not have realised because the message icon does not light up nowadays.

a reply to: DISRAELI

All prophecy is self-fulfilling really.

The prophecy itself serves as the drive for the actions.

Down to an individual's expectations about another person or entity.

Eventually, the result is the other person or entity acting in ways that confirm the expectations.

We really are special little creatures. LoL

I would not worry about the mark of the beast too much.

As smartphones seem to have ticked that box a hell of a lot longer than 7 years ago, and yet here we are still kicking, plodding along, carrying on regardless.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Thanks DIS for your contributions over the years.

Your expertise and guidance regarding these most important of all
matters is greatly appreciated on my behalf. I've had a lot of trouble
understanding where the Trump presidency fit into what is as I
believe foretold. Sadly current events seem to be pushing me back into
more familiar terrain if you will.

originally posted by: andy06shake
I would not worry about the mark of the beast too much.

The whole point of this thread is that we should not, at present, worry about the mark of the beast too much.

No, I think that the numbers are just more symbolism in the sense that 7 is the divine number and 777 is most divine; then 6 is the number of man and falls short of 7 the divine or perfect, then 666 is the most "human" or flawed if you will. 666 would be the perfecting (excuse me) of the empire of man on earth culminating in the leadership/tyranny of the Beast. The mark would be whatever sign that would adopt in my opinion.

And certainly in today's secular, technocratic world lead by "science", I think this is where things are trending.

a reply to: ketsuko
My thread on "666" is another long one, but essentially it says what you've just said.

I agree Covid isn't the pestilence we need to worry about, nor is the vaccine the Mark.

I suspect these are precursors. worst diseases are coming, possibly man made or altered

and the government is setting the precedent for we-can-alter-your-body (for your own good of course)

thanks for the thread Disraeli

a reply to: ElGoobero

I disagree. I think COVID is enough. It doesn't matter if the disease is deadly. The effect is already achieved. People are blindly and tamely following even when the evidence in front of their own eyes should tell them things are rotten.

In other words, the world is primed to worship the system of man already. And look how vicious those of us who question are treated.

It isn't about killing people. It's about controlling them. The knock-on effects come through the efforts to subdue those of us who question and resist as well as the implementation of the system. Man cannot create Utopia on earth for all that we've been trying and convinced that we can since the Fall itself. That's what the grand experiment is -- the choice between coming to the realization that you need God and continuing to refuse that admission in favor of your own personal folly.

And while there are good people who are currently frightened into submission, more will wake up as time goes on and they are forced into situations where the compromise is too great for them. Again, this is where the knock-on effects will come into play.

How`s this ?


The beast is ...secular authority. The elected and non-elected authoritys that are pulling this World to hell, and people who will obey this beast will obey it even when
they send themselves and their children to path which will destroy them, and ultimately their body, the temple of God.

NWO will later destroy church, also other religions


digital health passport= mark of the beast. forehead =Facial recognition system....your face is mark .

loyalty to the Beast same as loyalty to authority .


It`s allready visible , look closely around, so many blindly follow the beast now with the covid , what ever the beast ask them to do , they will ...even harming themselves and others .

And as Ketsuko mentioned " technocratic world lead by "science" ...which is used by the beast aka authority .


Ultimately, the highest point of secular authority are very bad people, not all even known /visible ..people who worship satan .There are several layers all the way down to local dumb asses that are just...dumb.



This was not pro anarchy speech .I might even think that actually the very top individuals of authority are in the state of anarchy, because they wont be controlloed by goverment, they do not follow democracy and rule of the majority...they rule themselves without any authority and so are anarchist.

Definition of anarchy by merriam-webster

anarchy

1a : absence of government

b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority the city's descent into anarchy

c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

2a : absence or denial of any authority or established order anarchy prevailed in the war zone

b : absence of order : disorder not manicured plots but a wild anarchy of nature— Israel Shenker

a reply to: Kenzo

Again, you cannot be tricked into it.

You have to willingly take the mark. It's as much a sign of worship as anything else. It's like the stereotypical contract on your soul talked about in literature and you'll know that when the time comes, but most people won't care because they'll come to love Big Brother.

a reply to: ketsuko

Yeeh, i was just doing Sunday rambling...

But maybe i did express something that was in my chest.


Anyways, the big brother is evil .

a reply to: ElGoobero

I agree Covid isn't the pestilence we need to worry about, nor is the vaccine the Mark.

But what if it's the combination of the two? What if the virus and the vaccine mutate into something worse? That would be the pestilence.

a reply to: ketsuko

666 also is related to Solomon’s gold
Some discussion about it here

I think the mark will be related to a financial reset.

The mask along with vaccine are just tools to help condition the population in to the eventual acceptance of the Mark of the beast.

Well if you can't "buy or sell" without some mark proving vaccination, it seems we got close enough.
If it's totally optional, it isn't it for sure, but a law making it mandatory changes the whole scenario.

a reply to: Observationalist
Solomon was a ruler and caught up in mutiple idolatry, making him unfaithful to God. I think that is more to the point.