Humans and the 6th Mass Extinction

Work avoidance and the fruit it yields....

Saw this interesting topic and thought ATS might enjoy it.

Were Other Humans Victims Of The Sixth Mass Extinction?

The spread of modern humans out of Africa has caused a sixth mass extinction , a greater than 40,000-year event extending from the disappearance of Ice Age mammals to the destruction of rainforests by civilization today. But were other humans the first casualties?

The article mentions that similarity in chimp war like behavior, and seems to allude to it possibly being something that existed prior to humans and chimps diverging. This is a viewpoint I htink most can reasonably share as being logical if nothing else. It goes on to say...

Yet the extinction of Neanderthals, at least, took a long time – thousands of years. This was partly because early Homo sapiens lacked the advantages of later conquering civilizations: large numbers, supported by farming, and epidemic diseases like smallpox, flu, and measles that devastated their opponents. But while Neanderthals lost the war, to hold on so long they must have fought and won many battles against us, suggesting a level of intelligence close to our own.

Which has a lot to unpack. The primary point being that neandertals seemed to have been up to the challenge of fending off HSS attacks. Beyond that, the propensity for germ warfare is mentioned, which has been a pretty popular way to win wars for at least 3k years. City sieges rely on germ warfare (cholera), although its not the attackers introducing it.

In any event, this was a rather interesting take on humanity and the impact we have had on this world as a species.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
Interesting, but here is my objections, the earth wasn't exactly crowded for most of that time, plenty of room and plenty of game, for a very very long time, not saying that when they /we bumped into each other stuff didn't popped off, because sex did happened ,consensual??.. or not, is another story, but enough to signal that they/we recognized each other as fam.

How ever how much we impacted negatively on their lives , I cannot say with certainty, but they were just as cognitive as we are.. communication abilities may have been a drawback.

a reply to: Spider879

The thing is, if you remove the scale of our farming and livestock, it becomes easy to see how humans in a moderate population could wipe out species in an area, before moving to a new area.

Yes, the world was less populated. But now that its populated, the only way it works is if we raise our game rather than roam and hunt for it.

Thanks for your input. Always appreciated.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
seems to allude to it possibly being something that existed prior to humans and chimps diverging.

What if there wasn't a divergence?

What if there was an advanced human culture (that built things like the pyramids ... a feat unachievable with the tech we have today)? What if that advanced culture had progressed to a level of warfare capability that included genetic warfare? And what if they altered their enemy's DNA to turn them into apes?

If you look at monkeys, you can compare them as easily to races of people, as you can to other species of apes.

What if ...

I think Neanderthals were likely just hyper intelligent predatory apes. I see no real congruity between their culture and ours. And furthermore I think they were probably wiped out by very little to do with humanity.

Where is the 100% proof that human beings are just so powerful that we wiped out "similar" species as us 20,000 or so years ago when we were as dumb as them and apparently worshiped a matriarchy?

Maybe the females of our species are the culprits?

HMMM?

Just a thought; If homo sapiens will do sheep, goats, and other animals it is not a far stretch to think about cross breeding between a captured female from a different tribe.

Since a certain percentage of Homo Sapiens have Neanderthal DNA there must have been either mates or slaves for breeding..

One thing that has been brought forward in the last few years is the cycle of a 12,000 year destruction of life on earth. 12+12+12= 36,000 or the 24,000 year cycle ties in (more or less) with the last surviving known pure blood Neanderthals while the 12,000 year cycle ties in with the big ice age creature demise. If the 12,000 year cycle is true we may know the answer as the magnetic field of earth is decaying and other things are going on with our sun and galaxy.

originally posted by: Fools
I think Neanderthals were likely just hyper intelligent predatory apes. I see no real congruity between their culture and ours. And furthermore I think they were probably wiped out by very little to do with humanity.

Where is the 100% proof that human beings are just so powerful that we wiped out "similar" species as us 20,000 or so years ago when we were as dumb as them and apparently worshiped a matriarchy?

Maybe the females of our species are the culprits?

HMMM?

Well...the DNA is pretty compelling. And the fact that they had art and were seafaring....that isn't too far from us, is it?

To be honest, aren't we just hyperintelligent apes?

There isn't 100% proof....but we have lots of evidence that leads to the conclusion. I'd say the fact that our territories overlapped enough to procreate to a degree that the DNA is still in us today is pretty solid. And the fact that we survived and they did not. Of course, there could be some climate involved as well. But from what we know as of today, Neandertals were a robust people with a fairly strong culture not too different from ours. No other apes other than those in the classification of "human" have culture.

Just a thought here. If crossbreeding happened and their descendants are still with us today then did they really die out? Isn't modern Homo sapiens really just a mixture of early Homo sapiens and Neanderthal?

originally posted by: ntech
Just a thought here. If crossbreeding happened and their descendants are still with us today then did they really die out? Isn't modern Homo sapiens really just a mixture of early Homo sapiens and Neanderthal?

Not all of us, no. Neandertal didn't make it into Africa, for example. So among peoples who have long standing lineage in Africa, you won't find Neandertal genes.

Similarly with Asia. In Asia it was Denisovan, not Neandertal. Without asian descent, you won't have Denisovan DNA.

Genetics is like music. Your DNA is a song. The delineation between species is mostly something humans contrive so we can classify things (its a fetish humans have). The reality is much more sublime. Chimps and bonobo's for example.

So true. Labels are limits.
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Snarl

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
seems to allude to it possibly being something that existed prior to humans and chimps diverging.

What if there wasn't a divergence?

What if there was an advanced human culture (that built things like the pyramids ... a feat unachievable with the tech we have today)? What if that advanced culture had progressed to a level of warfare capability that included genetic warfare? And what if they altered their enemy's DNA to turn them into apes?

If you look at monkeys, you can compare them as easily to races of people, as you can to other species of apes.

What if ...

Why would stacking a large number of crudely cut limestone blocks into a pyramid shape then cladding it with nicer limestone be "a feat unachievable'?

Cause no one can achieve it in this day and age?
a reply to: Hanslune

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
Work avoidance and the fruit it yields....

Saw this interesting topic and thought ATS might enjoy it.

Were Other Humans Victims Of The Sixth Mass Extinction?

The spread of modern humans out of Africa has caused a sixth mass extinction , a greater than 40,000-year event extending from the disappearance of Ice Age mammals to the destruction of rainforests by civilization today. But were other humans the first casualties?

The article mentions that similarity in chimp war like behavior, and seems to allude to it possibly being something that existed prior to humans and chimps diverging. This is a viewpoint I htink most can reasonably share as being logical if nothing else. It goes on to say...

Yet the extinction of Neanderthals, at least, took a long time – thousands of years. This was partly because early Homo sapiens lacked the advantages of later conquering civilizations: large numbers, supported by farming, and epidemic diseases like smallpox, flu, and measles that devastated their opponents. But while Neanderthals lost the war, to hold on so long they must have fought and won many battles against us, suggesting a level of intelligence close to our own.

Which has a lot to unpack. The primary point being that neandertals seemed to have been up to the challenge of fending off HSS attacks. Beyond that, the propensity for germ warfare is mentioned, which has been a pretty popular way to win wars for at least 3k years. City sieges rely on germ warfare (cholera), although its not the attackers introducing it.

In any event, this was a rather interesting take on humanity and the impact we have had on this world as a species.

Howdy Big Fur

There may be another missing H?? DNA we carry too - or at least some of us.

www.sciencealert.com...

originally posted by: Fools
I think Neanderthals were likely just hyper intelligent predatory apes.

Isn't that essentially what H. Sapiens and H. Sapiens Sapiens were/are?

I see no real congruity between their culture and ours.

When AMH first met Neanderthal in the Levant, it was the Neanderthal who had the superior Lithic technology. Furthermore the dead of both species were buried in the same area denoting a common "cemetery" and they were both buried with similar grave goods. This indicates a more familial sense to these 2 groups of people who appear to have formed a community together with AMH adopting burial practices and Lithic knapping skills from the Neanderthal. With community and a sense of familial bonds, it seems far more likely that there were actual relationships that led to admixture and not a slave or conquest of war which would lead to a logical conclusion of men forcing themselves on the women from the other group. That however, doesn't seem to be the case based.

And furthermore I think they were probably wiped out by very little to do with humanity.

Thinking it is one thing. What evidence are you.basing your supposition on though?

Where is the 100% proof that human beings are just so powerful that we wiped out "similar" species as us 20,000 or so years ago when we were as dumb as them and apparently worshiped a matriarchy?

It's not about how powerful we were though. You're trying to boil down a very complex issue to an oversimplified version that seems to only work if one possesses extreme confirmation biases.

I can't speak about Denisovans, but Neanderthal had been subjected to declining genetic diversity for quite some time prior to AMH arriving in the Middle East and then Europe. Then there's the factor of admixture to consider as we slowly absorbed them into our own genetics. The possibility of introducing new diseases from Africa in a similar way that Europeans introduced small pox to the Americas and the First Nations people sent syphilis back to Europe. In simplified terms, there were multiple factors involved in Neanderthals ceasing to continue existing as an independent species. Part of them lives on today through us as roughly 20 percent of their gemetica survives today in European as well as West Asian groups and some Africans as well.

As for your comment about intelligence, wjat data did you derive that conclusion from? While Neanderthal brains were organized differently than our own (larger occipital lobe which gave them better line of sight while hunting in Europe's dimmer light compared to Africas as well as the pronounced Occipital Bun on the back of their crania) but there is no indication that either they or the AMH they encountered were any less intelligent than modern HSS

Maybe the females of our species are the culprits?

HMMM?

Maybe, it is you who is the culprit?

originally posted by: Dalamax
Cause no one can achieve it in this day and age?
a reply to: Hanslune

Except that your statement is completely false...

a reply to: Hanslune

Could it be that Neandertal or Denisovan populations interbred with H Erectus and that is where the genes come from?

As I undrestand it, there is also another population of HSS that we do not have more information on (a mystery population) that contributed unique DNA. I always enjoyed musing on that one, as it speaks to a somewhat stranded population of humans, separated by miles of ice in the Iceland/Finland type area where thermal activity from within the Earth could have kept a more moderate climate area. There are some "woo" stories about "Vinland" and a stranded population of humans. Been over a decade since I read them, so i can't speak much on the stories. But its always been interesting to ponder.

originally posted by: Dalamax
Cause no one can achieve it in this day and age?
a reply to: Hanslune

This is a lie told by the woo purveyors. The reality is, the pyramids can be rebuilt at any time by humans. Can we leverage our current technology to make the job easier? Probably not..our tech isn't designed for that kind of project. although I guess we could use heavy lift type helicopters to hoist up stones...but it would be costly.

However, if we threw 100,000 men into the effort....it can happen. You and I can both relatively easily move and swivel stones the size used at the GP just by using simple physics (leverages, fulcrums, etc).

And while the problem of scale may exist in theory, the reality is that pyramids were built the world over. its not just the Egyptians that pulled it off. They merely did it on the grandest of scale without piling stones around piles of dirt. The greater marvel from antiquity, to me, is how we managed to corral enough auroch's to create a breeding herd for making cows out of. Can you imagine the stones on the people who had the nerve to try to capture such a beast?

ETA: i would honestly say the more marvelous part of the pyramids was that the stones were cut without the use of iron age tools. Any people willing to put that kind of effort into cutting stones surely would be capable of moving them. And its not like those stones are the largest stones...baalbek has them beat by quite a bit.

Defiantly. Weather we hunted them to extinction over competition for resources. Which is our m.o.
we could have integrated a small amount into our communities before they disappeared as they didnt evolve fast enough to compete with us as we have in the european genome. Three. Spereate races. But my belief is the way we are. We came across an advanced population who maybe didnt have as big brain capacity as us but had technology far beyond ours. Essentially we stole the tools that set us apart. Our history shows we rapidly evolved for some unknown reason. This finding a population and over taking there technology or society once they had taught us it. Is a much better explanation then aliens. I hate how it's not very well known within society that there was a point when we competed with other forms of hominids. The only problem with the sixth mass is extinction. Is we can facilitate regrowth we just dont care. I feel it's down to us to help terrestrial animals repopukate this world before we lose them.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Did you ever see the guy who moves stones on pebbles?

Vid

originally posted by: Dalamax
Cause no one can achieve it in this day and age?
a reply to: Hanslune

So, again what is the impossible difficult to cut and stack limestone blocks?

We made this many centuries ago:

www.tourinrome.com...

Denial is not evidence.