USA Socialism and our Future.

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

So, in your opinion any sort of government 'assistance' or 'intervention' is evidence of socialism?

ETA.

Government bail out of the banks?
That wasn't socialism, that was propping up bastions and cornerstone's of the capitalist banking system.

Government bail out of the banks?
That wasn't socialism, that was propping up bastions and cornerstone's of the capitalist banking system.

a reply to: Freeborn

The Government bailed these powerful banks out .

So now the Government Owns these Powerful banks .

Ipso facto Socialism .

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

TARPS invested money into the US Banking system targeting specific areas.

TARPS sold the last of the assets/holdings in 2014.

The government never did 'own' these banks, it certainly doesn't now.
If anything I'd say the reverse is true.

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Cobaltic1978
a reply to: TerryMcGuire

Socialism in most South American countries have been forced to fail, due to sanctions imposed on them led by the U.S. You can believe differently, I really don’t care, but the good ld U.S have too many investments in South America to allow them to be nationalised, for the good of the people.

Socialism doesn't work and never will... the big issue with socialism in practice is that it ignores human nature (i.e. greed) so it is not rooted in reality. People are always looking for ways to better their or their family's lot in life. People simply are not equal intellectually or by their willingness to work. As such, socialism never works because it doesn't account for these differences in people.

And that’s exactly why Socialism is doomed to failure from the outset. Greedy capitalist type folk, who are selfish and self preserving always slate it. It’s the antipathy of everything they understand.

Erm...

So to you, socialism never works because of capitalism?

Because in my viewpoint, socialism never works because it was never meant to work.

That was also the viewpoint of Hegel and Karl Marx.

You know, the ones who quite literally invented the concept.

It is just a way to segue into the next phase, Communism.

Which was just a way for totalitarian regimes to amass all the power to the top .01% (the technocrats ruling the country) and have the rest of the population enslaved by them.

For their own good, of course.

Even Marx knew that human nature would not allow the last part of his plan (the Government, having given the people what they needed, would die on the vine and the people would then take care of themselves) was utter BS.

But capitalism (an ideology that has afforded us a way to make the biggest advancements in science, the arts and technology that the world has ever seen) is bad?

/facepalm

Many of them don't understand that it is capitalism which has created the standard of living that we all enjoy. Greed is what drives innovation and solutions to problems.

This classic video from Friedman using a pencil to show how brilliant the free market is...

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

So I think that what you just said is that at least in South America, socialism was killed by capitalism.
Right? If so, I agree. Socialism has been thoroughly crunched by capitalism and we all better get used to it.

There is capitalism and it reigns. What we see is one side of the capitalist system pointing at the other side of the capitalist system and calling it Fascist while the other side points back and calls it socialism.

opps

a reply to: Lumenari

Marx praised capitalism as the greatest concept ever created by man. Further, he warned that capitalism would lead man kind astray from nature and ourself, which then the bourgeois would take advantage of.

His theory of alienation is quite interesting...

a reply to: asabuvsobelow

Same could be said about relying on National Security, and throwing money fixes everything. Then again, if one could pay it off, might as well be privately owned.

Still is Socialism, and pretty much every nation a hybrid of ether capitalism or socialism, all the while banking becoming more centralized.

Thing is one would think welfare would give more money to those who have paid taxes or worked when they are down on their lucj, where in reality it the exact opposite for someone whose never worked a day. Social security only be a crutch, sadly most govs are using it to look relative.

It wasn't Capitalism that made rockets, but a collaborative effort when the West was sleeping. Nor do I think Socialism about giving free stuff to the incumbent. If that were the case, then the Nazis might as well be painted as little girls.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

So, in your opinion any sort of government 'assistance' or 'intervention' is evidence of socialism?

ETA.

Government bail out of the banks?
That wasn't socialism, that was propping up bastions and cornerstone's of the capitalist banking system.

Also, look how much our government spend on global oil.
Our military is a major protector.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

TARPS invested money into the US Banking system targeting specific areas.

TARPS sold the last of the assets/holdings in 2014.

The government never did 'own' these banks, it certainly doesn't now.
If anything I'd say the reverse is true.

Learn something new everyday , Good to know.

originally posted by: jacobe001

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

So, in your opinion any sort of government 'assistance' or 'intervention' is evidence of socialism?

ETA.

Government bail out of the banks?
That wasn't socialism, that was propping up bastions and cornerstone's of the capitalist banking system.

Also, look how much our government spend on global oil.
Our military is a major protector.

Actually Global oil is no longer a big factor in the USA, But under Biden I'm sure that will change back.

Military is the whole point of a Government , and that is the First thing Democrats start complaining about Military .

It beggars belief .

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

I agree that socialism in modern times has not worked. This might be because socialism is a economic system where the workers themselves own their own means of production and share equally in the fruits of that production.

The holler we here about socialism in the US today is not socailism. It's capitalism more in the line of neo-liberalism that seeks to create new markets and consumer choices for the capitalists to exploit.

So I see it as not a choice between socialism and capitalism but rather what form of capitalism will prevail.

You're thinking of Communism.

Most of Europe is socialist, as is Israel. Socialism "can include" all of that stuff about the means of production, but only if you're a hard core leftist. Many country simply opt out of those bits. Other countries fulfill it by having state owned enterprises (in France, for example, the government has controlling stakes in many companies that are traded on the stock market).

In most socialist countries "socialism" simply means that the state guarantees essential services and a minimum standard of living.

For example, German is a pretty heavily socialist country but it has a fully functioning capitalist economy in addition to the state sector. They often compete with each other using free market principals. For example, Germany has free college and private college. And people can pick and choose. It's like VP Pence and his education vouchers. You can take your education voucher and put it into a state school or a Private school. And VP Pence is no communist.

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: Cobaltic1978

So I think that what you just said is that at least in South America, socialism was killed by capitalism.
Right? If so, I agree. Socialism has been thoroughly crunched by capitalism and we all better get used to it.

There is capitalism and it reigns. What we see is one side of the capitalist system pointing at the other side of the capitalist system and calling it Fascist while the other side points back and calls it socialism.

In South America, socialism was killed of by the CIA and economic warfare because the administrations of the 1960s-today we afraid that socialism would lead to communism.

a reply to: AaarghZombies

Venezuela was killed because they nationalized their oil industry and the government did not diversify. You can trace the hard downfall of Venezuela to their joining OPEC and OPEC's determination to undermine the rise of shale oil and other petroleum sources in the West.

With the sudden abundance of oil and the fall in oil prices, Venezuela's economy which was largely propped up by its poorly run state oil company cratered.

a reply to: AaarghZombies

We are almost together here in our understanding and that difference may be nothing more than semantics

It may be that the main difference between our observations is your comment about socialism ''can include'' all of that stuff about the means of production. I"m not hard core leftist but do see that that IS the core of socialist philosophy and not just a side effect.

For me, the spectrum of left to right is pretty simple. Socialism on the far left and fascism on the far right. In between are steps in either direction. Capitalism on the right and Communism on the left. Communism was never supposed to be anything more than a government half step to aid a socialist economy to emerge from out of a capitalist economy. Interesting theory but a total failure. Communism seems almost invariably to fall into the hands of despotic rulers who have non intention of turning over power to anyone but themselves. This is why Lenin was very clear back then that a low level bureaucrat like Stalin should never be allowed any where near the main seat of power. Opps.

So for me, the term socialism has been bastardized and is now used as a way of keeping focus off of the inequities of capitalism. Socialism is not a step towards communism but rather it is the other way around and none of us on our level want anything to do with communism.

originally posted by: AaarghZombies

originally posted by: TerryMcGuire
a reply to: Cobaltic1978

So I think that what you just said is that at least in South America, socialism was killed by capitalism.
Right? If so, I agree. Socialism has been thoroughly crunched by capitalism and we all better get used to it.

There is capitalism and it reigns. What we see is one side of the capitalist system pointing at the other side of the capitalist system and calling it Fascist while the other side points back and calls it socialism.

In South America, socialism was killed of by the CIA and economic warfare because the administrations of the 1960s-today we afraid that socialism would lead to communism.

Precisely.

2.10.2022

Something to consider, if you are a U.S. citizen who wants "the government" to provide free healthcare, pay off your student loans, provide free childcare, etc.. Your government will then feel that THEY OWN YOU and will treat you accordingly.

Canada is still a democracy…

Except the government tells you what goes over your face.
What goes in your body.
When you can work.
Who are you can see.
When you can leave the house.
When you can protest.
Who you can donate to.

Yep… With democracy like that, who needs tyranny.

Source: twitter.com...

As President Trump told Americans in his final speech, before handing the White House over to Joe Biden in January 2021, "Be Careful what you wish for".