The origin of a common belief among religions and beliefs.

This is more a question than anything.
There are many examples of gods and sons of god that died, journeyed to the underworld,
and rose from the dead on the third day. A common belief is that this story is an allegory of
the winter solstice the sun is at it's lowest point in the sky for three days before it begins it's rise.
But, these myths seem to be held by peoples that were not in areas where the sun died.
It may have been seen as weakened, but it still rose every morning. It is only close to the polar regions
that anyone would experience the sun "dying". many of these peoples holding these beliefs were building
stone circles and other magaliths to help them keep track of the season change.

I tend to agree with those that say that originally it was the sun that was dying and rising from
the dead. But, where did this idea originate at? It would have to come from people who witnessed this.
People closer to the polar regions. Which seems to be backwards from what we are told regarding the
birth of civilizations and the migration of peoples.

a reply to: dawnstar
Sorry, formatting is crap. Using new tablet, will have to figure out how to get it to word wrap or whatever.

Religion has many facets and there are multiple dimensions in which the world religions share commonalities. There is the astro-theological aspect, the fascination with the stars, as you (the OP) mention. But that is not all. The mystical experience of self-transcendence and "everything-nothing" is another dimension of religion that is universal. All cultures share this experience but translate it differently. Then there is the social control aspect. Since the most ancient times, every society has used religion together with more worldly muscle as a form of control. Yet another dimension is the question of death and what comes after: all men are mortal but none of us know what if anything awaits us. There are many different things shared at baseline by every religion.


"Who really knows?"
-Rg Veda, c.1500 BC

a reply to: Never Despise
And, it would be easy to explain much of the Christmas tradition if one was to consider the controlling force that used religion in the past.
But, the sons of god who dies to rise dates way back before that.

a reply to: dawnstar

Anything found in religions today or historically which are no longer here to day is and was a perversion of the truth revealed from God.

Worship of the sun moon and stars, which were created on the 4th day is forbidden by God Almighty. Notice though we have so called Stars in Hollywood which now have the worship of people.

The underworld (hell), heaven, seasons representing life cycles are all found in God's preserved word for man today.

As Solomon said nothing new under the sun which was created on the fourth day.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Oh, I imagine for those prehistoric men and women living in the north,
Sitting in darkness for 20-24 hours each day with the only light coming
from the small fires in their huts.. It was a big thing when that sun began
hanging around longer. Something to celebrate. And, it was just as
important to know when it was time for spring planting, and harvesting,
gathering supplies for those long winter nights. It wasn't worship, it was
survival marked with celebrations to announce the time.

But, the seasonal changes wouldn't have affected the people in the middle
eastern countries in the same way, would it? So, how did they know the sun died!

a reply to: dawnstar

I lived in a tropical zone for many years. They have their seasons too.

The most ancient form of the Chinese character 帝 can be shown to connect the stars surrounding an empty spot known as the "Northern Culmen." In the early pre-dynastic era several millennia BC, this empty spot was occupied by the star Kochab, which was a pre-Solaris "north star." But when Kochab began to "wander," there was a time when there was no north star: just the empty spot the early Chinese called the "northern Culmen" around which all the other stars revolved.

This empty spot was endowed with mystical significance and the use of 帝 (visually connecting nearby stars) was associated with a high heavenly deity and also with the emperor. Some scholars speculate the Chinese philosophical and religious preoccupation with "emptiness" stems from a veneration of this empty spot around which the night sky rotated after Kochab was no longer the North Star but in the millennia before Polaris took its current space in the night sky.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Ya, but are the only green plants around evergreens?
Is everything "Dead"??

a reply to: dawnstar

It is amazing how this story seems to stretch back through time, how it's been woven though so much our cultural fabric.

I had already stepped away from religion/spirituality by the time I saw Zeitgeist, but the opening part on astrotheology really caught my attention.

a reply to: Never Despise

wow, that is really fascinating.

i'm glad that you're back

a reply to: dawnstar
You would find these of interest. Check out papers 85 through 92, which directly address your question.
Urantia Book papers

a reply to: wheresthebody

I found his little tidbit of information quite interesting also.
We have ancient monuments that work as astrocalenders only, they were built at a time when the stars were in a different position. By what I read one of our great dams (think it is the Hoover dam) will point to out time for as long as it stands.
But to have a chinese character pointing so far back is amazing.

a reply to: dawnstar

Your question made me look up Hermetic Philosophy and Freemasonry

“ The presence in the modern Masonic system, of many of the emblems, symbols and allegories of the ancient Temples of Initiation, as well as certain rites performed therein, has persuaded the most learned among Masonic scholars to conclude that Masonry is of very ancient origin, and is, in some aspects, the modern successor of, and heir to, the sublime Mysteries of the Temple of Solomon, and the Temples of India, Chaldea, Egypt, Greece, and Rome [I am certain that he was referring to the cult of Mithras], as well as the basic doctrine of the Essenes, Gnostics and other Mystic Orders“

With this single quote, Brother Lightfoot clearly asserts that Masonry contains remnants of the symbols and rites of the Ancient Mysteries and Masonry also contains the basic doctrines of known esoteric groups, which he terms, Mystic Orders.

This is precisely what the antiquarian William Stukeley had noticed in 1721; there were aspects of Freemasonry that seemed to have similarities to known rites and cults of the ancient world.

Order out of chaos? Freemasons bring all the gods into one capital G God.
They like to organize things. Why not organize the gods so they fit under one roof.

This is a good video of the history of Freemason and how they have impacted religion and society.

a reply to: dawnstar
You might find this article of considerable interest. It is lengthy and delves deeply into the topic, though it is not exhaustive by any means...
Sun gods as atoning saviours
I personally do not believe that astrotheology by itself answers the question. What might have started out as imagery and metaphor for the human experience through anthropomorphizing took on a life of its own, making it harder to reduce everything back to its lowest common denominator. Nevertheless, it is helpful in the overall picture to do comparative study.

a reply to: Observationalist

That would certainly be interesting..

Im the type that believes in both gods and God. I see no conflict there.

The Stories we have been telling for hundreds of years mostly fit within a roughly coherent and consistent *individual* framework, growing more and more cemented as technology advances. I think it is very difficult to understand exactly what the Old Tales may be talking about.

We see pretty consistent archetypes across the board, as well as some very unique ones (like the Bhagavad Gita). We may be dealing with too much cultural and narrative separation to really approach these things. With the Bhagavad Gita alone, what happens "if" an ancient society comes into contact with something much, much more advanced and the Stories they tell of it must be interpreted by yet another vast divide between then and now?

Some believe that ancient peoples were simply like us, experiencing the same exact world just through the lens of being "ignorant savages." Sure, many wont come right out and say it that way, but its a pretty clear theme.

Im not so convinced of that. Likewise, I dont hold the current Stories (told by everything from science to any social group) as some sort of esteemed beacons of Truth and Enlightenment.

That sort of condescension permeates all of our history anyway, and Im not sure it will ever be particularly appropriate. Just like the process of understanding and knowledge of every Age, we always seem to end up exploring our perception of what is happening versus what is actually happening. I think we have always missed the point of that, and what it might really mean for our presence here in this world.

I believe that the Tales we weave, en masse, provide a framework for what is possible. It establishes a filter on how/what threads are pulled from the field of possibilities and chaos, which are then woven into the Tapestry of our experience.

In that, perhaps things were possible then that are not possible now.. much in the same way that there are things possible now that were not "back then."

Im quite certain some very, very interesting things would happen with unification of the Stories. Particularly if/when coupled with establishing the act of consciously writing this Story as a societal & cultural norm. Currently, its just Plato's Cave spread over time on a very large scale, and so very many firmly & arrogantly believe the piece they are touching is the True Form of the Universe.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: Observationalist

That would certainly be interesting..

Im the type that believes in both gods and God. I see no conflict there.

The Stories we have been telling for hundreds of years mostly fit within a roughly coherent and consistent *individual* framework, growing more and more cemented as technology advances. I think it is very difficult to understand exactly what the Old Tales may be talking about.

We see pretty consistent archetypes across the board, as well as some very unique ones (like the Bhagavad Gita). We may be dealing with too much cultural and narrative separation to really approach these things. With the Bhagavad Gita alone, what happens "if" an ancient society comes into contact with something much, much more advanced and the Stories they tell of it must be interpreted by yet another vast divide between then and now?

Some believe that ancient peoples were simply like us, experiencing the same exact world just through the lens of being "ignorant savages." Sure, many wont come right out and say it that way, but its a pretty clear theme.

Im not so convinced of that. Likewise, I dont hold the current Stories (told by everything from science to any social group) as some sort of esteemed beacons of Truth and Enlightenment.

That sort of condescension permeates all of our history anyway, and Im not sure it will ever be particularly appropriate. Just like the process of understanding and knowledge of every Age, we always seem to end up exploring our perception of what is happening versus what is actually happening. I think we have always missed the point of that, and what it might really mean for our presence here in this world.

I believe that the Tales we weave, en masse, provide a framework for what is possible. It establishes a filter on how/what threads are pulled from the field of possibilities and chaos, which are then woven into the Tapestry of our experience.

In that, perhaps things were possible then that are not possible now.. much in the same way that there are things possible now that were not "back then."

Im quite certain some very, very interesting things would happen with unification of the Stories. Particularly if/when coupled with establishing the act of consciously writing this Story as a societal & cultural norm. Currently, its just Plato's Cave spread over time on a very large scale, and so very many firmly & arrogantly believe the piece they are touching is the True Form of the Universe.

Good post. Myth has never been "fiction"; all strong and culturally meaningful myths contain "eternal truths" that can only be expressed in a nonlinear, non-rational form.

But myth systems -- the stories we tell ourselves to make sense of deep mysteries -- can dry up and die. At one point people just stopped believing in the d Greek and Roman Gods: those stories lost their ability to embody deep mysterious meaning, for whatever reason. In the case of the Greco-Romans, rational advanced in math, science, and logical philosophy drained the myths from one side, while the deeper spiritual needs were met in a new system with the rise of Christianity. The fall of the Roman empire itself was a blow to the "eternity" of that culture's gods. The same happened in mesopotamia, egypt, the fall of the Aztecs and Incas, etc. New "stories" were needed when old civilizations collapsed so completely.

That's why I don't think there will be a grand unification of our stories; they need to be replaced from time to time in a universe of constant and often radical flux.

originally posted by: Never Despise

That's why I don't think there will be a grand unification of our stories; they need to be replaced from time to time in a universe of constant and often radical flux.

Depends on how that unification takes place, right?

One might say that even in the most straightforward sense, it would intrinsically account for changes over time. Particularly through the past..

When complemented by consciously writing this story, something that hasnt happened in known history, I believe it would look much, much different than many imagine (literally).

In a sense, we are bags of meat and electrical signals that latch onto any recognized pattern like a drowning person with a life preserver.

A unification could be seen as something that reduces possibility and introduces stagnation. Of course, that could simply be the current Story attempting to maintain dominance.

I view most of everything in terms of decentralization. Which, on the surface, has the appearance of the opposite of unification. But.. it all comes down to what is actually Written.

If we give everyone a hammer, what happens when that tool becomes obsolete? Well, we create the Story with that in mind. In other words, the unification takes place in the general premise, similar to comparative religion. I see no reason to throw away the hammer because I have significantly more advanced tools. Similarly, I see no reason to desperately hold on to that hammer because of familiarity. I can embrace both, as well as any tools that come next.

We bypass all of those specifics intentionally, through the framework of the Story itself.

In this way, albeit briefly described, we can see possibilities that grow beyond simply leap-frogging from one narrative to the next. Im not sure thats any better than a static interpretation, though for different reasons, nor am I convinced that we need to choose in that way at all. I joyfully use my hammer right alongside my automation and 3d printers. The scientific method performs a similar feat: it is a framework that enables growth. Of course, like any Theme, we can get so wrapped up in the reliability of predicting patterns, and the results of the framework, that we get wrapped up in our own hubris.. but c'est la vie.

Science is certainly a very dominant theme, for good reason, but we are nearing a time when our tools will be indistinguishable from magic and we have absolutely no framework to safely incorporate it into in "normal" terms, much less esoteric ones.

The archetype of resurrection is certainly present throughout history, and likely will be again.. sooner than people think. It is already there, really, there is just a discrepancy in the time gap between death and returning to life.

Sure, many prefer to look at people in history as mere primitives, but maybe our Tools & Stories only provide a conduit for what is possible.. and always has been possible.

There is a Buddhist text called the "Perfection of Wisdom" that comes in versions of various sizes. The biggest is an enormous 100,000 lines. The slightly condensed next-largest version is 25,000 lines. This is pretty long still, so there is also an 18,000-line version.

The text continued to be produced in briefer and briefer versions that were said to still express the overall meaning: there are versions in 8,000 lines, 2500 lines, 700 lines, 300 lines, and finally there is the "Perfection of Wisdom in a single letter": the Sanskrit letter "A". This letter is considered sacred in Buddhism and to contain all possible words and meanings in the cosmos within it's inner mystic essence.

For more info:

en.wikipedia.org...

katab.asia...

Sorry haven't been posting...
Lol.. still reading, lots of helpful links.
Lots of interesting thoughts from you all.
Thanks.