"Don't Give me the 10th Degree!"

There's an English saying:

"Don't Give me the 10th Degree!"

"Your giving me the 10th Degree!"

Or variations.
I was wondering if anyone knows if this might have something to do with ... perhaps... a painful initiation rite in Freemasonry?

Anyone know the origins of this popular saying?

There was a recent case in Staten Island, New York City. Where some Freemasons were having an initiation ceremony. Dressed in robes, in a basement temple underneath a house in the suburbs. Candles lighting the temple. Big pentagram on the floor. The head mason had 2 guns on him. One had blanks, the other real bullits. As part of the ritual, the new member had to show no fear of death. A gun was pulled, put to his forehead. And fired.

His brains splattered out all over the floor, the back of his head blown apart. The cops were called. It ended with the head Freemason recieving a 2,500.oo Bail. Of course he was able to post it. This happened early to mid 2004.

I mention this because maybe the origins of the saying about the 10th degree might have something to do with being tested to see if one has no fear of death?

any source of this?
please back up this claim....

The 10th degree?
Where did you get that from?
The only English saying that I've heard is "giving someone the 3rd degree".

As fo the NY shooting. Use the site search. It's been discussed extensively.

I'm English and I've never heard of that phrase. As Leveller says, are you sure you don't mean 'giving the 3rd degree', which I believe is a masonic expression that has fallen into mainstream use.

Your description of the NY shooting gives a lot more information than I have previously heard, either in newspapers or on this forum. I'm particularly interested in the following details:

1. Dressed in robes
2. Pentagram on the floor
3. The 'Head Mason' did the shooting

How did you come by this information? Were you a witness to the shooting? This is a matter of great interest as some ATM members are working hard to get background information.

Of course if you're making all this up or quoting from an unverifiable source I'm afraid you won't be very popular round here...

I have heard the "Don't Give me the 10th Degree!" and "This is like the 10th Degree!" etc a few times before, though the "3rd Degree" seems to be the most popular.

personaly i've only head about the third degree.
i've never even considered where it came from. tho in the back of my mind i have always equated it with burns.ie; first ,second or third degree burns. as well as haveing something to do with torture.
yet another saying where the original reason behind the saying has prety much been lost. my favorite has to be f.u.c.k. which as i understand it came from the short hand for: For Unlawfull Carnal Knowlage. i would actualy be interested if someone actualy does know wher we get :the third degee from

According to this site:

www.wordorigins.org...

Giving someone the third degree is from Freemasonry:

Third Degree
The third degree, thanks to old Hollywood cops and robbers movies, is now synonymous with police interrogation with bright lights and rubber hoses and without the benefits of counsel. But where did this phrase come from? And what are the first two degrees?

The phrase comes from freemasonry. To become a Third-Degree or Master Mason, the highest rank, one must submit to questioning. The questioning associated with a Third-Degree Mason dates to at least 1772. Some sources say the questioning is long and intense, others that it is a mere formality (not being a Mason I don't know), but whichever is true, the idea that the Masons' testing was an ordeal became fixed in the public mind. So, by 1880 the term became used for any long an arduous questioning or interrogation. Around the turn of the 20th century, the term began to be applied, outside of Masonic rituals, exclusively to police interrogations. The idea of a brutal interrogation being called the third degree was no doubt helped along by association with third-degree burn.

So, there really are no first or second degrees of police brutality

thank you for that. i just love it an inocent mistake in a term, but even so the suposition of where it came from ends up to be correct lol. i will have to check out this site.

I've heard " to the tenth degree," in relation to size or distance--"3rd degree" in relation to questioning someone--

Originally posted by OpenSecret2012
A gun was pulled, put to his forehead. And fired.

THis, however, was not a masonic society. It was a group of people meeting who privately rented out a masonic hall.

I mention this because maybe the origins of the saying about the 10th degree might have something to do with being tested to see if one has no fear of death?

SOunds like a vague connection if a connection at all.

it is an interesting origianl question tho. What are the origins of the term 'tenth degree'?


[edit to add]
ah, well, that seems to wrap that up.

[edit on 17-3-2005 by Nygdan]

The phrase comes from freemasonry. To become a Third-Degree or Master Mason, the highest rank, one must submit to questioning.

according to the information i have read over the years the term was in
use well before public Masonry.

It is attributed to Maria Teresa of Austria and described the three levels
of torture that were allowed. If the accused passed through all three
levels without confessing they were pronounced innocent and freed. slightly worse for the experience no doubt.

I have heard a phrase that just might be misunderstood as "the 10th degree"
that being " to the NTH or inTH degree" .

[edit on 17-3-2005 by stalkingwolf]

Originally posted by Trinityman
I'm English and I've never heard of that phrase. As Leveller says, are you sure you don't mean 'giving the 3rd degree', which I believe is a masonic expression that has fallen into mainstream use.

Your description of the NY shooting gives a lot more information than I have previously heard, either in newspapers or on this forum. I'm particularly interested in the following details:

1. Dressed in robes
2. Pentagram on the floor
3. The 'Head Mason' did the shooting

How did you come by this information? Were you a witness to the shooting? This is a matter of great interest as some ATM members are working hard to get background information.

Of course if you're making all this up or quoting from an unverifiable source I'm afraid you won't be very popular round here...

Oh come on! you really believe that? That's straight out of a movie. yes, some masons had their own club whose initiation ritual involved guns... VERY UNMASONIC. The guy was old, and accidentally pulled out his personal gun he carried around for self-defense, and shot his brother on accident.

There were no pentagrams or dark robes figures... please. Please verify your facts before posting.


[edit on 17-3-2005 by sebatwerk]

I believe where the "nth degree" or "10th degree" however you want to pronounce it. Is derived from the use of the word degree when refering to polynomials. For example x^2 +2x+1 is refered to as a 2nd degree polynomial. This is relating to the x^2. This can be said as x squared, x to the 2nd power, or x to the 2nd degree. Which is short form of just saying x * x. So if you think in those terms x^10 or x "to the 10th" degree (ie 10x10x10x10....)

In short what my above ramblings mean just that "nth degree" or "10th degree" refer to is magnitude or intensity. Just my opinion...but we all know what opinions are like.....

[edit on 17-3-2005 by Golfie]

I personallly have never heard the 10th degree phrase I have however heard the 3rd degree phrase and was always told it came from the witch hunts. Which like someone said earlier it took three degrees of testing before someone was declard innocent that 3rd degree usually involved death if you died you passed if you didn't you were immortal and therefore a witch. If you passed the third degree your soul was clear however you were dead, so I assume people didn't like the 3rd degree too much.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Oh come on! you really believe that?

Er... no. But now you've just gone and spoiled my fun with OS2012

Please verify your facts before posting.

Yeah - this is what I was trying to say in a really roundabout way

Originally posted by Trinityman
I'm English and I've never heard of that phrase. As Leveller says, are you sure you don't mean 'giving the 3rd degree', which I believe is a masonic expression that has fallen into mainstream use.

I live in America, so maybe the sayings changed. Also different parts of America have variations of sayings. Or even different sayings.
(For example in the American south they use the word "skillet" to mean a pan. They used the cuss word "Jumpin Jehosephat".)

Originally posted by Trinityman
Your description of the NY shooting gives a lot more information than I have previously heard, either in newspapers or on this forum.

I wasn't a member of this forum back when it happened. But I'm very surprised if this forum had soo little info about it, if this forum has been around longer than 2 or more years.

Originally posted by Trinityman
I'm particularly interested in the following details:

1. Dressed in robes
2. Pentagram on the floor
3. The 'Head Mason' did the shooting

How did you come by this information? Were you a witness to the shooting? This is a matter of great interest as some ATM members are working hard to get background information.

Of course if you're making all this up or quoting from an unverifiable source I'm afraid you won't be very popular round here...

It was in every major New York City newspaper, that's how I got the information.
BUT the story was buried around page 14 in all the newspapers. I even cut it out of the NY Daily News, and saved the article. It was very tiny, and near the bottom of the page.

Heres a link I found talking a bit about it. But it looks like the guy posted what he read, cuz its not word for word what I saw in the NY Daily News:

www.grandlodgescotland.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">[u rl=http://www.grandlodgescotland.com/Press%20Watch/masonicdeaths.htm]http://www.grandlodgescotland.com/Press%20Watch/masonicdeaths.htm[/url]

If anyone wants to sign up and become a member of the NY Daily News website, you can look it up and read it yourself.

Want to hear something even more strange?
On every website I posted the entire article word for word on, within days the website would permenatly go down! And never come back up again!

[edit on 18-3-2005 by OpenSecret2012]

------------------------------------------------------

I spent time playing with the NY Daily News site and this is as far as I could go without having to pay to become a member:


Freemason Secret Initiation Ceremony resulting in Guy getting Brains blown out



[edit on 18-3-2005 by OpenSecret2012]

[edit on 18-3-2005 by OpenSecret2012]

Originally posted by Toromos
According to this site:

www.wordorigins.org...

Giving someone the third degree is from Freemasonry:

Third Degree
The third degree, thanks to old Hollywood cops and robbers movies, is now synonymous with police interrogation with bright lights and rubber hoses and without the benefits of counsel. But where did this phrase come from? And what are the first two degrees?

The phrase comes from freemasonry. To become a Third-Degree or Master Mason, the highest rank, one must submit to questioning. The questioning associated with a Third-Degree Mason dates to at least 1772. Some sources say the questioning is long and intense, others that it is a mere formality (not being a Mason I don't know), but whichever is true, the idea that the Masons' testing was an ordeal became fixed in the public mind. So, by 1880 the term became used for any long an arduous questioning or interrogation. Around the turn of the 20th century, the term began to be applied, outside of Masonic rituals, exclusively to police interrogations. The idea of a brutal interrogation being called the third degree was no doubt helped along by association with third-degree burn.

So, there really are no first or second degrees of police brutality

WHOAH !!! Thanks for the info!
BTW I know that 31 and 32 degrees is suppose to be the highest degree in Freemasonry. After some one reaches 31 or 32 degrees, they go through a back door, and enter another secret society. Only people who've reached 31 or 32 Degrees in Freemasons are elegible to become members of the next secret society. (I'll find out its name by this Monday. Can't remember off my head.)
Then again, maybe "3rd Degree" is short for reaching 32 degrees? Since 11+11+11 kinda sorta is close to 33 degrees?

In New York City, in lower Manhattan, there's a FREEEKIN HUUUUGE Freemason temple. I mean its HUUUGE! The whole front looks like dark gold, or copper, or maybe bronze. I've been by it twice. It has pentagrams on the outside, and other stuff if you know what to look for. Security in suits and ties and beefy looking guys. (I never tried to enter cuz I don't want to dissapper.... yet LOL!)

It's intresting that you said it was made popular by cops & robbers movies. Cuz many police are Freemasons.

[edit on 18-3-2005 by OpenSecret2012]

Thanks for the link. I'm familiar with the story and the GLoS site told me nothing I didn't know already. What I have never heard before is...

1. Dressed in robes
2. Pentagram on the floor
3. The 'Head Mason' did the shooting

...and it's that I'm specifically interested in.

Originally posted by OpenSecret2012
If anyone wants to sign up and become a member of the NY Daily News website, you can look it up and read it yourself.

Want to hear something even more strange?
On every website I posted the entire article word for word on, within days the website would permenatly go down! And never come back up again!

I looked at the NY Daily News archives and there are a number of stories about this listed - as it costs $$$ to download these perhaps you could let me know which one it is? Or even better U2U me the article. Or even better still, post the article up here on the site. I'm sure the site won't go down . Does it address my three questions above?

Originally posted by OpenSecret2012
BTW I know that 31 and 32 degrees is suppose to be the highest degree in Freemasonry.

3rd degree is the highest degree in freemasonry. There are a number of side degrees, including the Scottish Rite which goes up to 33 degrees - perhaps it is this you are thinking of?

After some one reaches 31 or 32 degrees, they go through a back door, and enter another secret society. Only people who've reached 31 or 32 Degrees in Freemasons are elegible to become members of the next secret society. (I'll find out its name by this Monday. Can't remember off my head.)

Er... no. You've been misinformed. There is no further secret society to join. There isn't even a non-secret society to join, unless you're thinking of the Shriners, which most masons are eligible to join before they reach 31st/32nd degree Scottish Rite anyway.

In New York City, in lower Manhattan, there's a FREEEKIN HUUUUGE Freemason temple. I mean its HUUUGE! The whole front looks like dark gold, or copper, or maybe bronze. I've been by it twice. It has pentagrams on the outside, and other stuff if you know what to look for. Security in suits and ties and beefy looking guys. (I never tried to enter cuz I don't want to dissapper.... yet LOL!)

Perhaps you should pop in next time. Freemasons Hall in London has regular guided tours for members of the public, the NY hall may have the same.

It's intresting that you said it was made popular by cops & robbers movies. Cuz many police are Freemasons.

I'm not sure what the situation is in NY but very few freemasons are in the police any more in the UK, due to discrimination and a concern that membership will hamper career prospects.

Originally posted by OpenSecret2012
BTW I know that 31 and 32 degrees is suppose to be the highest degree in Freemasonry. After some one reaches 31 or 32 degrees, they go through a back door, and enter another secret society. Only people who've reached 31 or 32 Degrees in Freemasons are elegible to become members of the next secret society. (I'll find out its name by this Monday. Can't remember off my head.)
Then again, maybe "3rd Degree" is short for reaching 32 degrees? Since 11+11+11 kinda sorta is close to 33 degrees?

Dude! Can you stop spreading bulls#@t?!?!? Nothing that you said above is true, it's ridiculous. There's numerous 32nd degree masons here and they've never been through a "back door" where they enter another secret society. Please don't post things you know nothing about in a forum full of people who do.

In New York City, in lower Manhattan, there's a FREEEKIN HUUUUGE Freemason temple. I mean its HUUUGE! The whole front looks like dark gold, or copper, or maybe bronze. I've been by it twice. It has pentagrams on the outside, and other stuff if you know what to look for. Security in suits and ties and beefy looking guys. (I never tried to enter cuz I don't want to dissapper.... yet LOL!)

I've never heard of a masonic temple with security in it. And just about eveyr masonic building that exists will give you a guided tour if you ask for one. Again, what you are saying is bulls#@t.

I don't mean to be a dick, but I really dont like people spreading falsities about the fraternity I love, and about men who spend their entire lives trying to help other people. These rumors that were generated by men with THEIR OWN interests in mind do nothing to help any of us, so please stop.