OP/ED: Dark Days. (The black band on ATS)

Ladies and gentle men, i am new to ATS i have been browsing the site as a guest for what seems now like ages, however it was this particular topic that ultimately led to me deciding to become a member.

I’m going to have to completely agree with SO here. firstly I look at logic and reason in them selves, though liberating and enlightening, I personally think that through these vary means we subtly, almost unconsciously restrict our logic and reason limiting our selves to "our side of the tracks" our "Camp" our "side" or what ever you may have. It seems almost ingeniously crafted that we may be completely free yet rage against each other and the opposite "camp" hindered by our own restricted, bias, one track logic and thought.

I'll make it simple (cuz i tend to make no sense on issues like these most of the time lol). Take a class room for example some where every one is familiar with. Say Jack and James are on opposite sides of an argument, debate or whatever. if these two people are placed on opposing sides they will 1) refute the others view and logic 2) defend there own to irrational ends 3) refuse to see the other "sides" perspective 4) their rational logic and thought will be clouded as so they will not have to view the issue or what have you from the other side. THUS inevitably with these two opposing factions we have conflict. With this wall that rises between them nothing gets accomplished, save for more fighting and squabbling. This is the nature of a polarized two party system and why it seems to use our own thought and reason to unknowingly control us, we can not reach a consensus or take action if we are for ever fighting amongst our selves.

Lets look at this class room example in a new light. What if instead of putting Jack and James on opposite sides, we took down this wall and instead looked at the picture as what is going on with in the entire class. Its not Jacks side Vs James side it’s what works best for all the people. How can we best satisfy the needs of this problem? How can the people in the room work to resolve/understand/act upon this issue? Instead of splitting the class, what would happen if we said every one is on the same team, stuck every one together. Figure it out as a group, not fight about it as factions. could this possably free us from the porblems we face here on ATS and elsewvere abroad in the world? unity instead of seperation perhaps for the good of man kind, them perhaps the pupets could understand, stop yellign at eachother and lift the strings from there backs.... or at least it has to start some where... (kinda like Rome, though the Factions held different views and agendas they could come to a consensus together about the greater Rome ANYWAYS…)

that’s just my thought about this conspiracy... human nature... and what we can do about it, just my 2 cents is you think is BS disregard it....
Peace out, and maybe we can change something some day


[edit on 20-3-2005 by MasterOfDisaster]

Great post memoryshock, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me, I do understand it a lot better now.
The example given by worldwatcher shows a very obvious attempt to screw up a thread, but I think there are a lot of more subtle ways in which threads get moved off topic.

I understand the importance of detecting such posts, I do, however think that sometimes a slight topic change is required in order for the dicussion to continue.

When, for example, you have a discussion about wether or not Bush started the war against iraq for oil, people that don't agree with this statement could reply with a post in which they explain that Bush didn't start it for oil, but because of reason X, which could lead to an entire new discussion about reason X, when the thread was about oil.

I will be the first to admit that I fell for "topic screwers" as well. When -in a topic about abortion of gay marriage- someone started to flame christianity, I took the bate and went off-topic trying to defend my religion.

Example: www.abovetopsecret.com...

What would be the solution? Maybe stricter rules regarding pulling threads away from the topic? Warnings for people that go off topic....
These rules would be subject to subjectivity, and because sometimes a topic has to be moved off topic to have a good discussion about it, there would probably be a lot of disagreeing wether or not a certain topic shift is justified.

[edit on 20-3-2005 by Jakko]

Ah, but look again,
More problems would arise; their cause the same,
Your example, though just in thought,
Has one small problem of which I caught,
For as in human nature,
We tend to follow our lives own preacher,
For once your classroom together unites,
Another one arrives and trouble relights,
Even if they all could come together,
It would crack again under stormy weather,
That is where I feel it falls,
The mod’s do well there job, as it calls,
The solution wherein we all may strive,
To find and keep it straight to drive,
Only time will tell how well we work,
As a team, not as loners who lurk.

I hope this helps,
But if not, think, if nothing else.

[edit on 20-3-2005 by Lupus copy]

System's of control are hard to breakout of espically given the fact of how much thing's are controled.

No one is invalidated but no one is right, this does not mean that everyone has all the fact's on a given issue or subject. A person that comment's on a subject might be partly right but there is always more to any issue then just one underlining fact about the issue.

Given the fact that people have a hard time dealing with reality's outside of there own given how they have been raised and what kind of truth they have been raised to believe this is indeed the hardest part in dealing with what is the the truth.

For you cannot convince people as to what is real or what is fact.

The only thing you can do is point the people in the right direction.

So the question is not has ats come to the point of not denighing ignorence, the question is are we the member's of ats on the right track tward's a common understanding of given fact's.

No matter what the fact's are there will always be conflict. For year's I have been a member of ats, and why there has at time's been much strife between myself and other member's we have always found a way to come to understanding in the end about any issue or issue's.

Why I have pointed some member's of ats into issue's that would have far exceeded anyone's idea's of how any given system of government may work, people at ats were at least able to accept the possiblity that I was right from time to time after fact's were presented.

Other Ats member's have done the same for me in area's as well.

Are the member's of ats denighing ignorence or are we just getting started in the full complexity of how deep the rabbit hole goes on any given issue or issue's.

It can be hard to tell because you never know who's real and who's not only time tell's that over the year's ats has grown and adapted there can be no question of that.

However given how much ats has grown and how big ats is now compared to how small it used to be the member's and moderator's of ats must be doing something right, otherwise we would not be as largely visited as we are today.

Word's are just label's, label's have defination's that are surpose to have meaning but most of the time they do not. Or the people dont know what a label is surpose to mean.

Who's to say who's right, who's to say who's wrong.

No one decides because there is no right and there is no wrong when it come's to issue's in general because you cannot get people to come to a consensis.

Why there is nothing wrong with that ats will still continue to grow. It will still contiune to have a effect, it will still break story's before the media does as well as many other thing's.

The long time member's of ats know how to stear clear of propaganda anyway dont worry about trying to get out fact's when covering a topic, time will to that and the more time people spend on ats the more they will be able to tell truth from fiction.

All thing's take time to work out same thing with the denigh ignorence problem. It take's time to gain wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

It's not something that happen's over night or in the matter or day's or week's. But it does happen ats will adapt and thing's will turn around in time.

That's my 2 cent's on this issue.

Falcon

Well, I don't think it matters, and I don't know if it's been said, but 90% of the threads I see are the following:

1. Attacks on Group X
2. Rehashes of older threads
3. Brawl-for-alls
4. Agenda-pushing threads.

Of the four, I see more and more of the last category, and it's my theory that thsoe posts are EXACTLY what have made the post quality decline. It's all about pushing the right-wing agenda, pro life, pro choice, anti-this, anti-that crap. If people would stop posting with a motive to push their opinions on others, maybe there would be less brawl for alls. I'm getting sick of all this political crap, too. Every thread becomes politics or personal attacks.

DE

That's a very valid point dues, one of the way's I try to get around it is be what people effectivly call divorcing from reality.

If its something I know is part of a controled agenda or project there is both no need to comment on it or even pay attention to the subject matter as to what the subject pertain's to.

Why those kind's of subject's may be way's that people associate there power or idea's from I will generate my own idea's and opinion's thank you and we might want to really have a look at that last statement there.

Is it the idea of people having there own idea's as to why we see so many of the thread's talked about in this subject matter because if it is. Then it might explain why people that have there own idea's or thought's about given subject's are under constant attack.

Have a look at something like normal S.O. has made a nice thread I have been looking at in rats. Dealing along the line's of the polorization artical.

It's a vaild point. Rally people around and promote a idea or subject long enough evently people want to be part of if it's made to look popular or normal.

Normal = naturaly occuring or occuring over time.

If it's concidered to be normal to be against people that have there own idea's or have the ablity to form there own thought's then this might explain why we have the problem's being discussed here.
How to get rid of the problem the answer is simple re-define normal
it wouldnt be as hard as people might think just take's a little planning.

Reminder of the thread that contained the idea of the "test" to see about who was watching ats and how to prove it.

I could come up with a idea for doing so but I wont post it here If I write something out about how to fix the problem it will be posted in rats like before.

Falcon

what a bummer man... i for one can not wait to see SO's ATS mascot shinning brightly in all its glory, once again! we'll finda way, just gotta notice that a lot of people are making really good points in here.

dfh out.

We must purify our toungues by fire so that we may be able to tell the vision. We also have to purify our ears, if we attempt to be partakers of the truth. For it is difficult to exibit the really pure and transparent words respecting the true light, to swinish and untrained hearers, for would anything wich they could hear be more ludicrous than these to the multitude; nor any subjects, on the other hand more admirable or more inspiring to those of noble nature.

I'm new on this forum but I'm learning and trying real hard to be the shepard.

Keep the faith.

ATS is a tool for the puppet masters. This forum allows the puppets masters to feel the pulse, so to speak, of the masses; to know what is on our minds and, therefore, manipulate our thoughts.

This forum is fertile ground for the agents of deception. This forum is the stage on which the puppet masters perform.

Originally posted by checkers
ATS is a tool for the puppet masters. This forum allows the puppets masters to feel the pulse, so to speak, of the masses; to know what is on our minds and, therefore, manipulate our thoughts.

This forum is fertile ground for the agents of deception. This forum is the stage on which the puppet masters perform.

Hysterical, paranoid nonsense.
I know this is a conspiracy community, but let's not go nuts just yet...

I have been trying to kill paranoid, hysterical nonsense since I got here, but it's proving very very difficult

Sugarlump PistolPete brings up a valid point when he points out that during the Clinton years the side crying foul was 100% behind their guy's policy. The blatant reversal in the parties calling foul and the fact that this has happened repeatedly should be a sign to all of us.

Errr, there is a problem with this....and I'm still trying to figure out a way to not make it sound right verses left....
I'm not going to state that everything Bush does is right...no president has ever got that reaction out of me. But because I share several common beliefs with what he stated is his beliefs, I find it much easier to trust him than I did Clinton.

Y'all remember partial birth abortion? Clinton pushed that. In the way my moral standards run, causing a breach birth just so that only the 8 month old baby's head is left inside the mum, just so you can push a pair of scisors into its brain, leaving it to scream (specifically during the ones that were not done right) it's dying breath into it's mother's vaginal opening, is nothing but sick. Because of this, I will never see Clinton as anything but a monster. It caused me to worry about every health care bill he put up. It worried me when he pushed federal aid on AIDS victims in Africa, just because he was willing to kill babies that could function outside their mother. If Bush ever pulls the same stunt, I will inherantly mistrust every helth care, world aid bill, he puts into action. Because of this, I will often defend Bush where I wouldn't defend Clinton. No, I never thought of Clinton as an idiot, in fact, I know he is probably a genius...but the man is sick in the head. Sometimes, it is going to be rather politically charged. I don't see a way around it, especially when others will see this, and start pulling up issues where they think Bush is showing moral depravitiy...and likewise call him a monster.

So, the point? It's not just a question of left verses right, often it goes to the very core of our moral values and either the left or the right espouses the genral leanings of our own hearts. It is nearly impossibe to put aside my own core beliefs, just to listen to another's argument. Sometimes I manage to....*shakes head* For some of us, it's like trying to crawl inside Ted Bundy's head, figure out all his motives, then feel compassion for him afterwards. Few people can do it.

But yes, the namecalling needs to stop. I wouldn't be suprised if I've done it myself, but it still doesn't make it right.

I posted this earlier, but it seems most egos can't really except this, and if confronted with the truth, will in turn argue and never believe the fact that we might be more of a problem than the masses

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

This is the first day since after the Politics@ATS forum started that I have been on. All the political bashing seriously drove me away. People kept insiting on fighting instead of trying to pursue the truth.

I think that is a fundamental flaw in humans as a whole. We would rather side with out beliefs than the truth. It can sometimes be hard to see something that you don't want. It's even more difficult to try and seperate yourself from what your beliefs are and take a step back and look at things from the entire perspective, instead of just our own.

I have had my own trials in seeing the truth. My upbringing and personal beliefs are in constant conflict of each other and my never ending pursuit of the truth, whatever that may be. Different opinions can change our mind and different ideas can open new worlds to us. We just need to be able to take that step back and watch these things presented too us as if we were a quiet observer. The only way this can happen is to take a look at yourself and know who you are.

Maybe this is a new beginning for ATS .....maybe not? Just try to look forward and not behind.

This has gone way to far now, something really needs to be done about it. It seems to still go on, which is really sad

I don't see the black band today, was this just part of the April Fool's gig?

If so, does that mean the Admin doesn't see a real problem in this area?

Originally posted by FoxStriker
skepticoverlord is right though, ATS was originally designed to pursue the truth, now its more of get together of people trying to earn points.

The site changed a lot since 2003 and before that.

Now we have the Conspiracy version of the Oxygen Channel.

This bizarre desire to make ATS legit is atleast partially to blame. Too many regulations, too many rules and taking themselves, or itself too seriously. Honestly, this site has slowly been infested with nodding sheep since I joined...

Originally posted by checkers
ATS is a tool for the puppet masters. This forum allows the puppets masters to feel the pulse, so to speak, of the masses; to know what is on our minds and, therefore, manipulate our thoughts.

This forum is fertile ground for the agents of deception. This forum is the stage on which the puppet masters perform.

checkers, i agree one hundred percent. this is the proverbial elephant in the room. as a student of the extensions of man and man's fusion with them in the collective unconscious, i KNOW that the Gman think tanks take VERY seriously which memes make critical mass, and which are regulated to lunatic fringe 'free speech zones'.

this place is like a flame to moths. 'we' can't resist coming to spill the beans, or learn something new and unusual. 'they' obviously want to keep their finger on the pulse, as you so aptly put it. i think the main reason 'they' are trying to quell the rumours that there are Gmen here, is they don't want to startle all the scared rabbits into scattering where they have to chase them all willy-nilly everywhere. takes much less manpower to set a trap, than to hunt down every single rabbit.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by billybob]

billybob and checkers

This thread is exactly what would make your 'allegations' obsolete. It isn't about what truths are known and who knows them, important as they are. After all, without subject matter, there is nothing to talk about. However, the point is in the approach to discussion. The problem is, and infinite this is what will be an ongoing theme throughout not only ATS but humanity, is that too often people are here sharing in the novelty or defending someone else's ideals. The whole partisan issue is a major one indeed and the reason for it is because people are defending ideals. Ideology is a nice expression for broad applications, but too often individual issue is given the run of the mill dismissal based on an '-ism.'

Mainstreaming ATS is a part of the problem but ultimately should end up as a positive influence on the 'newbies.' If our whole point is to "Deny Ignorance," then our systematic and point by point analysis of our own views as well as others will rub off on others.......critical thinking is an important concept that many people are lacking in, or ignore. Hell, some people even mistakenly believe they know what that is. But that is what the basis of deny ignorance is.....to take in as many factors and weigh them against personal bias and current events......how many times does a current event 'happen' to mirror a hollywood event? Hint - "Million Dollar Baby" was not the first time.

There are many factors that involve the creation of an action. Nothing is distinct. So why do we converse in a fashion that reinforces this concept? The 'puppet masters' have no effect on a person who demands proof of everything. Propaganda is as effective as it is because much of the foundations are generally assumed to be true...to an extent it might be,,,,,,but the difference is the word might or possible. What could be possible if a few thousand people got together to crunch numbers and facts without letting arbritrary differences get in the way?

[edit on 4-4-2005 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 4-4-2005 by MemoryShock]

Something Corporate - it seems to have been the drive, yet now you bemoan the achievement of that goal?
You want to have something sickeningly saccharin & antiseptic with big volume numbers, yet you believe that it will maintain true to form from years passed?
I know you're not stupid, so naive is the winner.

Boards are not supposed to be "civil"; since "mettle" is formed in "flames", after all.
Just go ahead and let this board live the life you've created for it ; there is no turning back, since what would be required is to cull membership, have staff be active on all forums & not just 'Cosmic' and to get the discourse redirected away from the artificial nice-nice that turns off those seeking to debate certain topics. Collaborative research posters have been & will continue to be unaffected, since what has grown the site are now the areas of the biggest 'something corporate' incursion.
All anyone needs to do is to look to this board's past or where they still have a good vibe - board staff clearly guts & fillets the majority of the type of crap that gets through here.