MiG-15 versus F-86 Sabre - the truth about the conflict

At the American AFB Travis airbase there is an aviation museum, part of which is dedicated to the war in Korea and the confrontation between American and Soviet fighters. Under the layout of the F-86, you can see an information plate with very interesting content. There is a photograph of the picture of the Sabers attacking the MiGs in an even formation, and the latter scatter in fear in different directions, like a flock of crows. It says the following:

“During the Korean War, the F-86 Saber proved to be the best fighter aircraft through crushing victories over communist MiGs. This Korean record was one of the most one-sided in aviation history. The final score was 800 jet planes shot down against only 58 Sabers, which gives a ratio of 14 to 1 ... "



Of course, both the Americans and the Russians have propaganda. But the fantastic ratio of victories of 14 to 1 in any normal person is, to put it mildly, perplexing. Let's figure it out, calmly and without emotion, the real situation.

It is impossible to find strict statistical information. There is scattered information, often contradictory, which is not official and has no confirmation.

Additionally, a lot depends on the methods of calculating losses and wins, which are completely confusing and comparison becomes impossible. In such a muddy situation, propagandists of all varieties find confirmation for their reasoning and conclusions.

The data on the Korean War were classified in the USSR for many years. Only recently has information begun to open up. In total, 650 Sabers were shot down in air battles (out of 1106 of the total number of American aircraft of all varieties). The losses of the MiG-15 amounted to 335 aircraft. At the same time, there is information that the total number of Sabers shot down by Soviet, Chinese and North Korean means is 832 aircraft.

According to the American side, 827 MiG-15s were shot down (out of 954 of the total number of downed aircraft produced by the USSR, piloted by Soviet, Chinese and Korean pilots). The loss of the Sabers was 138 aircraft.

The same spread in the numbers of victories and losses applies to individual pilots. In the same museum, there is a plaque dedicated to pilot Joseph McConnell of the 39th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron in Suwon, who, according to the inscription, won 16 victories over MiGs, including three victories in one day. He was subsequently written off to the ground and sent home with the title of "triple ace". According to later information, he had only 13 out of 16 confirmed victories.

The Soviet fighter pilot Yevgeny Pepelyaev has 23 victories (of which 18 Saber aircraft) with approximately the same number of sorties. These data are much easier to verify, and even if there are some reservations and clarifications, then a significant advantage of the Soviet pilot over the American will remain.

To understand where such discrepancies come from, you should know the technical and tactical features of the two aircraft. Despite a very large external similarity, the MiG-15 and F-86 Saber were radically different in their characteristics. The F-86 Saber was much larger, more powerful, and faster. In a gentle dive, he set the official speed record for turbojet aircraft at 1080 km / h, at an altitude of over 11 thousand meters.



The MiG-15 was more maneuverable and had more serious weapons. At the initial stage of the confrontation, in order to compensate for the lag in speed, the pilots of the MiGs tried to squeeze everything possible from the MiGs, as a result of which the losses increased, including non-combat ones. At high speeds, the aircraft began to roll, and as a result of vibration, the wing and tail unit were destroyed.

The reason for the strange behavior of the MiG-15 in the air was the deformation of the bearing plane. And the more the pilot pulled the control stick, the deeper the MiG tilted in the opposite direction. The problem was soon fixed by the designers. A metal strip was riveted to the rear edge of the aircraft. The same, 30 mm wide, was installed on the aileron. The control of the ailerons was supplemented with hydraulic boosters. The tail unit was also changed. Elevators and rudders have become more powerful. After that, the modernized MiGs became the kings of the air in Korea.

On December 22, 1950, a massive skirmish takes place between Soviet pilots and F-86 Saber pilots. This was already an equal result, where both sides lost 2 aircraft.



Similar to the MiG in many characteristics and piloting, the Saber was larger than the Soviet fighter. Its takeoff weight was 30% more (2.5 tons), but the practical flight range was almost 2 times less than that of the MiGs. The MiG has about 1400 km, and the Saber about 750 km. Otherwise, in terms of aerodynamic design and internal layout, both aircraft were extremely similar.

The external similarity of these fighters was especially striking. Their silhouette was so similar that at the beginning of the fighting in Korea, in the excitement of the battle, the Sabers pilots began to shoot at their own people and attacked their comrades.

t is also worth noting that the Sabers' armament consisted of 6 machine guns of 12.7 mm caliber, while the MiG-15 had more powerful weapons with a large second salvo and consisted of two 23 mm cannons and one 37 mm cannon. Initially, American pilots, feeling unpunished in the skies over the Korean peninsula, did not escort their bombers, but ultimately regretted it very much.

MiG pilots at speed, literally cut through their formation, unleashing shells from all three of their guns. The effectiveness of the weapon on the MiG-15, the range of fire (use of rangefinders) and the lethality turned out to be much higher than that of machine guns on American jet fighters.

A salvo from 3 MiG barrels, at least removed the American Boeing B-29 Superfortress bomber from combat. The superfortress turned around and flew to South Korean territory, and most of the strategic bombers never returned to the base, or were scrapped after landing. For Sabers, such a salvo from MiG cannons was usually fatal.

But the numerous damage to MiGs from machine gun fire from American bombers and Saber fighters did not always mean the loss of a Soviet aircraft. The American machine guns fixed the hit, the pilots reported on air victories, but the Soviet machines, as a rule, reached the airfields, and returned to service after repairs.

This largely explains such a difference in the assessments of victories and losses of the parties.

After the modernization of MiGs and their supply with rangefinders, the nature of air battles in the skies of Korea changed dramatically. MiGs began to seize air supremacy and, thanks to a change in battle tactics, win impressive victories.

The Korean campaign is still presented to American pilots as an aviation horror story. In the training center of American aviation - the school of pilot-aces "Top Gun" (Navy Fighter Weapon School), for a long time they tried to figure out why what happened to American bombers, what happened, and why the US fighter aircraft could not turn the tide of the battle, but to the final conclusion never came. The Americans have not seen such losses for a long time - except that such incidents happened during the Second World War.

On April 12, 1951, an event took place in the skies of Korea that went down in American history as "Black Thursday". In less than 10 minutes, the US Air Force lost 14 aircraft: 10 heavy bombers and 4 fighters, 15 more heavy bombers were decommissioned after returning to base. About 120 personnel were captured. Soviet fighters attacking them returned to base without losses

On October 30, 1951, 21 Superfortresses, accompanied by almost 200 fighters of various types, were attacked by forty-four MiG-15s (according to other sources, the last raid by B-29 bombers was on October 28, 1951). As a result of the battle, Soviet pilots shot down twelve B-29s and 4 F-84s. In addition, many "Fortresses" were damaged - almost every returning crew brought dead or wounded. The Americans managed to shoot down only one MiG-15. This day went down in the history of the US Air Force as "Black Tuesday". After it, for three days, not a single American aircraft appeared in the MiG's coverage area (according to other sources, on November 1, a group of 14 F-84s appeared in the MiG coverage area). The result of "Black Tuesday" was the fact that the B-29 on that day finally ceased to be a weapon of a crushing blow, and the US Air Force was forced to change strategy and tactics.

Only a month later, three B-29s, covered by the Sabers, tried again to make a raid in the daytime on the crossings across the Yalujiang River. However, the MiGs shot down all three vehicles.

I would like to emphasize that all the figures and facts I have cited relate only to Soviet vehicles driven by Russian pilots. Unfortunately, I did not find information and statistics regarding Chinese and North Korean pilots on Soviet-made aircraft. I am not a great specialist in this field, and with respect and gratitude I will welcome comments and information from my colleagues on the forum regarding this topic.

Thanks.

I never flew the Mig-15 but the guys I knew who did said at high speed it was terrible in roll and had extremely stiff controls.

Both jets suffered from compressability at high speeds.. Even the WW2 P-38 had the same problem until the "L" model with the dive breaks were introduced.

Many of the F-86 losses were due to fighting the aircraft improperly against the Mig. The Mig at slower speeds could out turn the F-86 so the "turn and burn" battles needed to be avoided. The F-86 boys started doing the "boom and zoom" tactics and the kill ratio became much better as the 86 was faster and still could be handled at higher speeds.

I doubt any governmental published number are correct as the propaganda back then was much alive and well just as today no doubt.

Something I forgot to mention was the first batch of F-86s in country were typical American rush to produce and the end product was a POS. As there were many times you came back only to discover pieces of your aircraft were missing or you had to declare and emergency for landing. The later models were much better and had a great reputation as far as hanging together and being a good machine.

The Mig was like a darn flying tank as far as ruggedness and firepower. youtu.be...

a reply to: 727Sky

I think that the losses of the MiG-15 were much higher among the Chinese and North Korean pilots. Now it is no longer possible to determine the truth, but very approximate figures still differ for the parties. Sooner or later, both the Chinese and North Korean archives will open, it will be interesting.

The tactics of air combat are determined by the tactical and technical data of the aircraft. And they, in turn, are determined by the designers based on the predicted development of technologies. The Korean War showed the complete obsolescence of the tactics of World War II in connection with the emergence of jet aircraft and the large expansion of its combat missions in connection with this. Third countries have always served as the testing ground for military equipment of the United States and Russia, now nothing has changed.

Ahh, see what you need to do to make these stats believable is add up both sides numbers, divide by two and give the answers a +/- 50% variable.

originally posted by: lakenheath24
Ahh, see what you need to do to make these stats believable is add up both sides numbers, divide by two and give the answers a +/- 50% variable.

I would also divide the losses of MiGs into 3 sides - Soviet, Chinese and South Korean. Pilot qualifications varied significantly.

a reply to: RussianTroll

The guys could always tell the difference between a N. Korean, Chinese, and a Russian pilot as the Russians knew how to get the most out of the Mig. Many were training the Koreans and Chinese and when they entered a battle there was a noticeable difference in flying abilities.... as it should have been as like the Americans most if not all were WW2 vets.

Yep when the Mig first appeared it caught the Americans with their pants down but... they fast tracked the F-86 to throw something into the fray that had a chance of survival. If something like that happened today with the lead times from concept to finished product (unless they have stuff hidden in numbers or go nuclear) I wonder what would happen ?

I keep waiting for something to pop with China against whomever ?

Now that will be a war I hope to miss or never see happen !

My understanding is even Russia is fed up with China stealing designs and laying claims to Russia's land. India, Russia, Japan, and countries in S.E. Asia banded together to kick China's butt might just be a big enough determent to stop any big future plans China seems to have. At least I hope so.

a reply to: 727Sky

Countries have always stolen technology from each other and copied technology. But blind copying of complex technologies by a country with a low scientific and technical culture and potential always led to the fact that the copy was much worse than the original. You need to have a scientific and technical base and traditions. Therefore, the Chinese copies have a much lower resource than the originals.

The MiG-15 was originally designed for the Rolls Royce "Nene-II" engine. Even without engines, the aircraft was designed based on the measurements of the dimensions and technical capabilities of the British engine. in 1946 the USSR received 40 Rolls Royce Nene-II turbojet engines. But they began to be very deeply processed and modernized at the Moscow plant "Salyut". As a result, thrust has been increased by 30%. Improvements were expressed in an increase in the combustion chamber, turbine blades, in the installation of a pipe-type exhaust device and contributed to a greater intake of engine air. The resource has been increased by 3 times. the afterburner was installed on the next modification.

Rolls-Royce attempted to collect £ 207 million in licensing fees, but failed without success. The engine was not recognized as a copy.

My uncle was a naval aviator in WW2 and the Korean war. He flew the F4F and F6F in combat and after getting shot down twice he was relegated to delivering F4U Corsairs to Marine units on various island bases flying off of "jeep" carriers. Towards the end of WW2 he was flying F4Us to trade parts for beer from the Marines and returning to the carriers usually with at least one case of beer in his lap and many others stuck all over the ship. An Admiral caught him landing on a jeep carrier (Navy pilots wouldn't land on even an Essex class carrier, they said it was too dangerous in an F4U) and shipped him to Florida to train new pilots on how to fly and land an F4U.

He was still in the navy when the Korean conflict or as he called it a "police action" started and was sent to fly F4Us off of a carrier, first, and then from various airfields around Seoul SK. He mostly supported ground troops (Marines) while they were fighting their way to Pyongyang. He told me Migs would jump them a lot and he shot down 4 even though he was in a piston fighter uprated to 2400 HP and a 4 bladed improved propeller. His superiors would not even look at his gun camera footage or anyone else's in his squadron. He said it was just too political.

He said that once the Mig flew by your aircraft they would try to turn back and make another pass. Thats when you would bank hard and turn inside their path and almost meet them head on. His 20mm wing cannon would make short use of the Mig.

He would always say the F4U Corsair was the best aircraft the Navy ever had.

a reply to: NightFlight

I don't think, with all due respect, the F4U Corsair is the best aircraft. Initially, it was in the deck version, which imposes certain restrictions on the design. The "Reverse Seagull" wing, a four-bladed propeller with an increased diameter, keel misalignment by 2 degrees and much more negatively affected the aircraft performance, although it had a high horizontal speed. Moreover, carrier-based aviation is a weapon of coastal combat and heavy deployment on aircraft-carrying ships, and the main hostilities of that time were carried out within the continents. I believe that the best English aircraft of those years was the Bell P-39 Airacobra, and the best American attack aircraft that appeared a little later was the A-10 Thunderbolt II, nicknamed Warthog. Sorry, F4U Corsair only built 580 aircraft. This is an indicator.
Respect for your uncle.

a reply to: RussianTroll

There was over 12,000 corsair's built.

a reply to: RussianTroll
Don't know where you got your info but over 12,000 F4U's were built.
F4U Brought To You From Wiki...

Thanks Bluntone, I appreciate that...

a reply to: NightFlight

My friends dad flew them in the Navy..
Great ground attack planes.

a reply to: Bluntone22

I don't know what modifications of which countries you mean. We are talking about a specific F4U Corsair aircraft.

“For the first time in the US aircraft industry, electric spot welding was used on the Corsair. On June 3, 1941, the Navy signed a contract with the company for the supply of 580 aircraft of this type.

But the results of the deck tests were unsatisfactory, the command of the fleet found the Corsair unsuitable for use as a carrier-based fighter. As a result, the landing gear had to be redesigned and the cockpit raised to improve visibility. "
ru.wikipedia.org...

There is no need to try to catch me on anything in my every trend. You fail all at once in disgrace. Hi))))


PS. By the way, if we take modifications, then around the world of MiG-15 aircraft were built 15,560 pieces. But we are only considering specific modifications.

a reply to: RussianTroll

The first order might have been for 580 aircraft but after that more orders were placed totaling over 12,000 aircraft produced over a decade.

After some modifications and improved training the plane was used on aircraft carriers..

I love threads like this. They always start out "This claim is propaganda" and then use propaganda from the other side to dispute it. The simple fact of the matter is that the truth is almost always somewhere in between. The MiG-15 was a good aircraft for its time, not a great one. It had very poor forward visibility due to the bulletproof canopy that was designed for it, but it had a good weapons load. The F-86 was a good aircraft for its time, not a great one, but it had its own issues.

The F-86 was hardly significantly larger however, as described. The length was 35 feet compared to 40 feet, with a 33 foot wingspan compared to 37 feet. The MiG had a higher ceiling, faster overall climb rate, and better turn radius.

Any air combat, especially when you're talking pure short range, guns only combat, is going to be a mass of confusion and mistakes. Multiple pilots claiming the same kill was common, and with no, or a limited gun camera system, it was difficult at best to untangle those claims. So you had frequently inflated claims that were awarded.

a reply to: Bluntone22

My friend, I hope you are a normal person and can read English. But in case you don't know how. I repeat: we are talking about a specific modification of the aircraft under the F4U Corsair designation.
If you still do not understand, then I can write in Swahili))))

a reply to: Zaphod58

And I never assured that the MiG-15 is the best. Each aircraft of one side or the other had its own strengths and weaknesses. In those days, the skill, courage and self-sacrifice of the pilots themselves still played a significant role. This was a significant factor.
It's just that there is a group of colleagues on the forum who are trying to catch me in a lie and accuse me of propaganda. They do not understand that even by trying to denigrate a small grain of fasting, they thereby agree with everything else. It's funny)))

a reply to: RussianTroll

There were 12,571 Corsairs built. The F4U was built by Vought, the FG variants were built by Goodyear, and the F3A variant by Brewster. All were the same basic F4U, with variations in armament, and eventually location of the wing fuel tanks, with somewhere around 200 built in that configuration.

Your argument that there were only 580 of the original F4U design and the rest are different is wrong. That's like saying that the MiG-15 is one variant, and the MiG-15bis is a totally different aircraft.