Belief vs Fact

If you, like me, are either Agnostic or Atheist, how do you feel about the possible survival of consciousness after physical death?

If we have no "beliefs" in an external "god" at this moment, "Now", while we can see the forms of all things - such as nature, our own faces in the mirror, our hands, our Loved Ones, & yet do not "believe" in an externalized creator "god". . . . so why would the survival of consciousness prove otherwise? Wouldn't it be simply be in "the nature of" everything else & All Things?

I recently had a discussion with someone who said that if I found myself conscious after dropping the body, that would prove the existence of god. I disagreed. I feel that if we are conscious after "death", that would be part of "life" & would neither prove or disprove anything.

I don't understand why "belief" is such a huge issue in the Scheme of Things. The Universe is breathtaking in & of Itself -why need there be some external intervention?

BUT I am willing to stand corrected, if need be. . .yet, how do we convince another of a belief, which by its nature is subjective & NOT provable? If not, it would be a Fact, not a Belief??

You can believe jumping off a tall building ain't going to hurt. Fact is it will.

originally posted by: kwakakev
You can believe jumping off a tall building ain't going to hurt. Fact is it will.

If its a skyscraper I do not think its going to hurt, your nerves cannot tell your brain fast enough that it hurts before you become pancake. But sure, one would be mentally hurt midair going down.

a reply to: kiro8lak

one can not prove God to another....

one can only set them on the journey...

Philosophically, facts tend to be thought of as more objective, while beliefs are generally described as subjective.

Imo, the quantibility of facts, makes it easier for others to make similar observations and work with data. Beliefs being subjective, cover a range and scope of data through one's personal perspective.

An epipheny can happen, when someone realizes that their data is only as good as the tools that you use to measure with.The implications of that can be a uncomfortable place to discover, a certain level of maturity is a prerequisite to unravelling the more mysterious parts of life.

It's difficult to convince another to accept a belief.I usually share experiences and insights that have helped form a belief, and hopefully the other is able to take that into consideration and use it to their benefit.

This does not imply agreement, more so the acknowledgment of another's insight, and the awareness of the possibility of how those ideas can work for them...

Read somewhere... "I was dead for billions of years before I was born and that didn't hurt one bit" So from atheist standpoint. There is nothing to fear. God doesn't demand belief. If he wanted us all to believe it would be written in our DNA.

So quest really is one of non-belief. Until we get a calling to exit the scene. Then we have to trundle though myriad of dogma to discover truth from all the non-truths. Then hope for the best.

a reply to: glend

the path is narrow and few find it...

a reply to: kiro8lak

The landscape of this planet is majestic on every one of
the 7 continents. There is diverse life forms to be marveled
at beneath the waters of the 7 seas. In the Hebrew

" In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth"

uses 7 words. If you deem that unimportant it's because you aren't
thinking. Words are very important because of what God said.

"Let there be light" and it was so. So we have a Supreme Being who
according to the Bible is literally as well as scientifically speaking
things into existence. Words forming sound and sound is vibration.
You follow me here? You know what this all told me personally over
30 yrs ago? It told me that vibration might just be the key to the
universe.

God and his word are very exciting subjects. Atheism is boring. lol

a reply to: Akragon

Path really is to die before death. Not many want to find that! So we really have to be true to ourselves.

Energy can neither be created or destroyed, you will persist in some way, one way or another, as I would assume this law applies to consciousness as well. This starts to get into Theology then, because we can begin to realize how consciousness is more fundamental than matter itself, as proven by quantum physics and the copenhagen interpretation. The Copenhagen Interpretation insists that matter does not have definitive properties until they are analyzed by a conscious measurer. As absurd as it may sound, it is true, and repeatable in a lab. If matter is subserviant in a sense to consciousness, then consciousness is a higher faculty than matter. If matter, according to Newton's Law, can not be created or destroyed, then neither can consciousness.



This enduring eternal consciousness is known as the Alpha-Omega. Words won't do it justice so I won't even try. You're taken care of, and the hairs on your head are numbered by a higher dimensional intelligence far greater than our own.

a reply to: glend

sounds like paul to me...

i'd prefer to live...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: glend

sounds like paul to me...

i'd prefer to live...

If you are dead to the way of the dead, then you have become living. We were raised in a system that supposes death and taxes are the only certainties, but what about life and liberty? If mostly everything we have been told growing up is a lie, then anything is possible.

a reply to: kiro8lak

This is a rather complicated post. Belief vs Fact.

The first question: "how do you feel about" jumps to feelings.

I don't understand why "belief" is such a huge issue in the Scheme of Things.

Belief is part of the formulation of hypothesis. Without hypotheses we would not discover the hidden things of the Cosmos. The 'hidden things' are the not immediately apparent; they need a bit of explanation to be more fully appreciated.
Example: I've never left the biosphere of Earth. There are people like Astronomers and Astrophysicists. When they team up with CGI FX people they can produce wonderful films that simulate a journey through the Cosmos. That's pretty cool.

But if there were no people who believed that such a film could be produced, then no such film would have been produced.

why need there be some external intervention?

Imagination and belief are internal, not external.

how do we convince another of a belief, which by its nature is subjective & NOT provable?

Show them the film. The film is proof that what was believed to be possible is in fact done and viewable.

As for individual, self aware, ego survival without physical body: Let me do a quick séance.
...
No one is telling me anything. Sorry.

a reply to: cooperton

Energy can neither be created or destroyed, you will persist in some way, one way or another,

Chemical energy most likely, as opposed to free floating waves.

I had a normal wet cell motorcycle battery. The case broke. Where did the energy go? It stayed in the chemical state in the electrolytes and soaked into the ground.

God is known through personal experience and not through religion. You and God don’t need a middleman.

a reply to: Akragon

Thats the thing. If we prefer to live, then we have more living to do. We have to trust our inner guidance on that respect. When we find emptiness in all things. Then we have no more wanting, to live. Then it is time to move on. To dive into the emptiness that is at the core of our being. It is not something I have read. It is something I have experienced. It is something we all will experience in time.

a reply to: glend

what enjoyment can one get from this experience when everything you do, everything you strive for... everything you've accomplished is nothing but an empty void?

i appreciate where you're coming from... but life is meant to be experienced... we're here to learn...

why not enjoy it on the way home

a reply to: Akragon

It is only empty when it is no longer full. If we see substance in the empty void then that substance is the absolute truth for the relative I, Some say we already exist in an enlightened state in the timeless void, That we must realize that enlightenment in our senses before awakening. To know thyself. So think we both share the same views. Words are sometimes an obstacle for me.

a reply to: glend

I think you're being a little too philosophical...

Every day is an experience in this life... IF all experience is emptiness theres no point in living

in many cases "religion" leads to depression due to this mentality...

a reply to: Akragon

You are thinking in absolutes. What if there is only one absolute truth, that being the Father. Our mind exists in dualities where all truths are relative. So we each see that same creation as having different attributes. Your mind see's substance in creation and that is the truth for you. My mind still see's substance but perhaps not as much, and that is truth for me.

When we have experienced all that can be experience the substance of the void becomes emptier. When one becomes the will of the Father we see the void through that will. As being incredibly more beautiful than anything we can experience with our mind. So what dies are the limitations of mind. Mind still exists. But akin to calculator rather than that, which drives all our passions and motives.