What is a tribulation?

a reply to: DISRAELI
Which abomination what verse?

It's worth 21 points in Scrabble.

a reply to: JON666
I take Revelation ch13 v12 as an alternative description of Matthew ch24 v15, and as the unspecified event in the background of Revelation ch8 v3.
Perhaps I should also repeat the point of the "abomination" thread; that the word "abomination" means fundamentally an act of idolatry, and is so used all the way through the Old Testament. As I keep saying, getting the definition right is key to understanding these things.

This is simply what I have been saying all along; the attempt to destroy the worship of God is resisted by God's people, which leads to their persecution (the tribulation in the strict sense), which leads to God's reaction against the persecuting world.

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: DISRAELI
Which abomination what verse?

Is it the abomination of a man sleeping with a man or is it a woman dressing like a man? There are many abominations in the eyes of God.

a reply to: JON666
The original "abomination of desolation", as erected by Antiochus Epiphanes, and providing the model for the "abomination of desolation" in Daniel and Matthew, was the act of presenting an alternative object of worship, while simultaneously obstructing the worship of the true God. So that is the kind of thing I would be looking for.

An "abomination" is something which is offensive to God. The bulk of the references in the Old Testament, as I have said once and I will now say again, are to an act of idolatry or to an object of idolatry.

Fortunately I've done this work once, to save me the trouble of having to do it all over again;
What is an abomination of desolation?

a reply to: DISRAELI

Would a alternative worship of God be offering sacrifices in the temple after the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?

a reply to: JON666
That would not be worship of a different god. Antiochus Epiphanes was offering worship of a different god. Revelation ch13 is offering worship of a different god.

Nobody in the New Testament actually makes a big deal about sacrifices continuing in the temple. Hebrews observes that they are now redundant and they never worked anyway, but it's not an important issue that "sacrifice is a bad thing".

Anyway, it doesn't fit into the timetable of Revelation (or Matthew). We are looking for something which prompts a great tribulation "such as not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, AND NEVER WILL BE" (Matthew ch24 v21). Are you honestly hoping to tell me that such has been the result of a few years of continuing sacrifice?

And this tribulation immediately precedes (because it causes) the great catastrophe of the world at the end of history, as described in Revelation. You must see the overall picture.

a reply to: DISRAELI

So animal sacrifice is still acceptable to God? I can go and slaughter a lamb for a sin offering and my sins are forgiven? Same God same offering.

a reply to: JON666
Where did I say that animal sacrifce is acceptable to God?
I am trying to explain that animal sacrifice, as such, is not the abomination of desolation. I am proving that by demonstrating what the phrase "abomination of desolation" actually means. As I keep saying over and over again, the key to the problem of understanding these concepts is getting the definition right.

No, God does not want animal sacrifice, because he never did. As Jeremiah tells us, he never asked for them. But being "something that God does not want" is not enough to make it the abomination of desolation.

Start with the definition. Get that right.

P.S. Where, in the New Testament, do you find any statement that animal sacrifice is such a bad thing that Christians must avoid it? I am not saying that God accepts them. I am only saying that nothing in the New Testament justifies trying to inflate the point into a big issue, simply to provide an escape-route from the idea of a future "abomination" event.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Where is the sacrifice mentioned in the old or new that it pertains to Antiochus Epiphanes? Is that not a theological position? In order for this sacrifice to occur a new temple will need to be built. It took them 40 year to build the old one with instruction from God on materials, layout, location and dementions. Do we have God's prescribed order for that temple?

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: DISRAELI

Would a alternative worship of God be offering sacrifices in the temple after the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?

Yes, that is it exactly. There will be a peace agreement made for 7 years, which should allow the Jews to go back to their original way of worship, which will be the sacrificing animals for the pure blood offering to God for the atonement of sin. Half way through, the anti-christ breaks the peace deal and will take away the option of doing sacrifices. (Orthodox Jews do not recognize Christ as having come already because he came on a donkey from a lowly carpenter, and died on a cross). They think he can only come as a King on a majestic white horse...so today...as some of us are waiting for Jesus' return (second coming) for the rapture...they also see the time is near and are waiting, but they think it will be for the first time. So when the anti-christ stands up in the temple and says "I am God" they will realize they have been deceived.

They have been raising pure bred animals for years now to get ready for that time!

a reply to: TruthJava

How do you turn covenant into a peace agreement? What is the Daniel's 70 weeks about? The rebuilding of the temple the entrance of the Prince of peace Him being cut off after a 3.5 year ministry. Theologians have inserted a mystical peace agreement for covenant to bolster up a position. One question where is the temple of God today? Hint it is not built by hand.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

Something else we learn from Matthew is that the elect are still present in the world when the Tribulation comes to an end. That is a necessary conclusion from the statement that the period of Tribulation will be cut short for their benefit. In other words, they will not have escaped the experience of Tribulation. The New Testament never promises to allow them to escape. Far from it; persecutions are actually “promised” among the benefits of discipleship (Mark ch10 v30). “If they persecuted me, they will persecute you” (John ch15 v20).

God’s purpose, frequently expressed, is to bring his people into a state of peace. If they meet with difficulties along the way, Biblical history suggests that God will work to bring them through these difficulties. We may compare the Tribulation with a set of rapids interrupting a journey down a river. In such a case, there are two possible ways of getting down to the peaceful waters. The rapids may be avoided by a portage across the adjacent land. Or the rapids may be traversed with careful management. For the event of Tribulation, God has never promised the first course of action, and we should be preparing ourselves for the bumpy ride. “If they persecuted me, they will persecute you”- and any other expectation is complacent self-deception.

That’s how we should understand the statement that a crowd of people in heaven “have come out of [EK] the great tribulation” (Revelation ch7 14). The angel does not mean that they bypassed the Tribulation. He means that they passed through the experience of Tribulation and came out again on the other side, unscathed in their faith. The elect, marked with the seal of the Spirit, will be kept “safe” in the sense of remaining true to their God, but their physical safety has not been guaranteed.

When all these things are over, and Christ returns to meet his people, Paul promises that “the dead in Christ” will rise, and “we who are alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord… and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians ch4 vv16-17). That is the only “rapture” that is on offer in the New Testament.

Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia (us today) write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; (referring to Jesus)

3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. (again, referring to Jesus)

3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (the believers in Christ/the tribulation)

3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

also...

The book of Revelation teaches that many will become Christians during the tribulation. Revelation 6 begins with the opening of the 7 seals, and describes what will happen during the tribulation - war (v. 3-4), famine (v. 5-6) and death (v. 7-8).

Then in verses 9-11 we discover that there will be martyrs in the tribulation. Since Christians will be raptured at the beginning of the tribulation , these are people who became Christians during the tribulation from the witnessing of the 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, and from having heard about it beforehand and did not accept Jesus Christ while they still had time.

Revelation 7:4-8 and Revelation 14:1-5 tells us that 144,000 Jewish believers will be witnesses during the tribulation and Revelation 7:9-17 reveals that many Christians will be martyred in that period of time. Verse 14 tells us that "These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".

a reply to: JON666
You are asking me about things which I've already covered in several different threads. I'll summarise the points briefly now, and if you like I'll attach the relevant links.

The phrase "abomination of desolation" is first used in 1 Maccabees, as it outlines the history of the conflict with Antiochus Epiphanes.

The first half of Daniel ch11 is a stage-by-stage resume of the history of several generations of conflict between two dynasties, viz. the Ptolemid dynasty of Egypt ("the south") and the Seleucid dynasty based in Syria ("the north"). It culminates in the arrival on the scene of Antiochus Epiphanes, described as "a contemptible person to whom royal majesty has not been given" (v21). One of the key events in his political life was being humiliated by a Roman envoy who drew around him the original "circle in the sand" and demanded an immediate answer to an ultimatum. This event appears in Daniel as "Ships of Kittim wil come against him, and he shall be afraid and withdraw" (v30). Only at the end of this chapter does this description overlap with a description of a genuinely future king.

That's how we know that Antiochus Epiphanes and the initiative which he took in Jerusalem provides the model for the "abomination of desolation".

As for the temple, I draw your attention to the fact that the New Testament temple already exists. "Do you not know that you [plural] are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you [plural]?" (1 Corinthians ch3 v16) We must reverse the sentence to understand the logic. The Christian community, as a body, are the dwelling-place of God's Holy Spirit. That is what makes the Christian community the temple of God. There does not need to be a literal sacrifice. I have not said anything about literal sacrifice. I have been speaking in terms of "presenting an alternative object of worship" and "obstructing the worship of the true God" as the two halves of "abomination of desolation". Anyone who controlled the outward forms and visible organisation of the Christian community would be "sitting in the temple of God" and in a position to do these things.

originally posted by: TruthJava
The book of Revelation teaches that many will become Christians during the tribulation.

The first issue is- how are you defining "tribulation" here? Have you taken on board the point that the New Testament uses the word to mean a time of persecution? If you are using the word in any other sense, the discussion will be at cross-purposes.

Then in verses 9-11 we discover that there will be martyrs in the tribulation. Since Christians will be raptured at the beginning of the tribulation , these are people who became Christians during the tribulation

.
This looks like a circular argument. You are assuming that Christians will be raptured, and I think you are trying to use that to show that Christians will be raptured. If Christians are not raptured, then the argument fails.

I understand the 144,000 as not literally 144,000 and not literally Jewish. I've done a thread on this, which I can link, so I'm not going to trail through the whole argument now.
144,000

I haven't commented on the quotation from Revelation ch3, because nothing about it necessarily says "rapture".

a reply to: DISRAELI

1 Maccabees give me a break it's not the inspired word of God. It was written before Jesus the Prince of peace. They were and are blinded to the fact of Jesus. They could not interpret Daniel with Jesus as the context.

a reply to: GBP/JPY

I propose this thought to you.


This 'Kingdom of Israel' was Long ago, was it not?
Hath the crown of wordly rulers remained within the same line, uncontested for aeons since?

Would so then, the Ancient Rulers of Old, upon their return, respect the current state of affairs of these newly appointed self-righteous kings, and go into exile themselves, yet retaining all that they Know, in knowing/unknowing?

I lay such claim, that the Chosen People of Israel, Great Men they Be, have been scattered across the Kingdom, and are in a process of 'Becoming', for Great Revelations are Upon Them in these days.

^_^

a reply to: JON666
It does not need to be inspired. It just needs to be an historical work which tells us the original context of the phrase "abomination of desolation" and the original application of the phrase "abomination of desolation", and thus provides the essential clue to what the phrase actually means when it is found in Daniel.

I have said over and over again. We understand the concept by understanding what the words mean, so we have to begin by getting the definition right.

An "abomination "is normally another god or something connected with the worship of another god.
"Desolation" is the sense of being isolated.
So an abomination of desolation is an act of worshipping another god which has the effect of making people feel isolated (because of the loss of contact with the true God). That was the impact of the act of Antiochus Epiphanes, and the reason why it got labelled as an abomination of desolation. That is what jesus is predicting, because that's what the phrase means.

And Revelation ch13 makes it perfectly clear that the act of "trying to make Christians worship another god" is at the root of the trouble. So it''s just a question of drawing all these things together.

a reply to: DISRAELI

How can they interpret a future peace agreement when it plainly says covenant?

a reply to: JON666
I don't know. You know about my thread labelling "the future peace agreement" as one of the "things that won't happen", because you posted on it at the time.
"Future peace treaty"