Archeotheology

a reply to: Riffrafter

i agree, but local floods happen, and have happened all over the globe... whereas there is zero evidence of a world wide flood... and there would be evidence everywhere

Though i also agree who gives a flying f*** anyways

a reply to: Riffrafter

God can do anything he likes, anywhere he likes, anytime he likes. He can provide as much water as he desires for a flood of whatever size he desires. I mean, he's God for god's sake!

Well said indeed! lol

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Riffrafter

i agree, but local floods happen, and have happened all over the globe... whereas there is zero evidence of a world wide flood... and there would be evidence everywhere

Though i also agree who gives a flying f*** anyways

I think its also important to note that all of the early major civilizations were centered around major rivers and they relied on annual floods for arable land. Egypt was centered around the nile, Sumeria the Tigris and Euphrates, China along the Yellow River, Indus Valley Civ along the Indus River. And those are just old world Civilizations.

Response partially from an old Religious Forums post.

originally posted by: Riffrafter

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Riffrafter

which also means he technically could have snapped his fingers and corrected what i thought was wrong...  ye know instead of drowning the world LOL

fact is the flood didn't happen.. fullstop

If you say so.

As far as I'm concerned - it seems that a mythos that spans thousands of years across multiple different peoples and cultures both writing and talking about it from generation to generation, just might have some basis in fact.

I gotta go with Sumer. And it's hard to dispute
sediment layers.

From Wikipedia:

Some modern scholars believe the Sumerian deluge story corresponds to localized river flooding at Shuruppak (modern Tell Fara, Iraq) and various other cities as far north as Kish, as revealed by a layer of riverine sediments, radiocarbon dated to c. 2900 BCE, which interrupt the continuity of settlement. Polychrome pottery from the Jemdet Nasr period (c. 3000–2900 BCE) was discovered immediately below this Shuruppak flood stratum. None of the predynastic antediluvian rulers have been verified as historical by archaeological excavations, epigraphical inscriptions or otherwise, but the Sumerians purported them to have lived in the mythical era before the great deluge.

Morphology of ancient societies and cultures (along with the stories they tell) is very fluid. The following timeline is based off excavations, written records, and artifacts (mostly tools and coins).

As far major societies the first two (Excluding The Indus Valley) were Egypt along the Nile and Sumer along The Tigris and Euphrates. While Egypt stayed pretty much isolated at first, Sumer seems to spawn it all.

And it is a mess.

Who has owned the Holyland? From beginnings of civilation to Rome and around 50 CE?

Everyone.

Mesopotamia/River Valleys (East):

This is typical "cradle of civilization"

2900 - 2500 - Sumer
2500 - 2400 - Lagash
2400 - 2330 - Uma
2330 - 2150 - Akkad
2150 - 2000 - Ur (Sumer)
2000 - 1890 - Old Assyria/Neo Sumer (split North/South)
1890 - 1780 - Small states/Babylon
1780 - 1470 - Old Assyria/Babylonia
1470 - 1350 - Babylonia
1350 - 1285 - Middle Assyria/Babylonia
1285 - 1205 - Middle Assyria
1205 - 1190 - Babylonia
1190 - 1143 - Neo Assyria/ Elam
1143 - 1021 - Babylonia
1021 - 846 - Neo Assyria/ Babylonia
846 - 819 - Neo Assyria
819 - 808 - Neo Assyria/Babylonia
808 - 724 - Neo Assyria
724 - 720 - Neo Assyria/Babylonia
720 - 624 - Neo Assyria
624 - 611 - Neo Assyria /Neo Babylonian
611 - 539 - Neo Babylonian Empire
539 - 483 - Achaemenid Empire (Ancient Persia)
483 - Mesopotamian Revolt
483 - 331 - Achaemenid Empire (Ancient Persia)
331 - 328 - Macedonia/Achaemenid Empire
328 - 324 - Macedonia
324 - 141 - Hellenistic Era (Ancient Greece)
141 BCE  - 118 CE - Parthian
118 - Rome

This is where it gets interesting.

This is the typical "Holyland"

1900 - 1470 - Canaan (formerly Akkadians)
1470 - 1210 - New Kingdom (Egypt)
1210 - 1021 - Phoenicia/12 Tribes
1021 - 796 - Phoenicia/Israel
796 - 783 - Neo Assyria
783 - 769 - Phoenicia/Israel
769 - 733 - Judah/Phoenicia/Israel
733 - 724 - Judah/Neo Assyria
724 - 720 - Judah/Israel/ Neo Assyria
720 - 699 - Judah/Neo Assyria
699 - 624 - Neo Assyria
624 - 611 - Judah/Neo Assyria
611 - 608 - Judah/Israel/ Neo Babylonian Empire
608 - 539 - Neo Babylonian Empire
539 - 331 - Achaemenid Empire
331 - 324 - Macedonia
324 - 137 - Hellenistic Era* (Ancient Greece)
137 - 51 - Judea (Herodian Kingdom)
51 BCE - 268 CE - Roman Empire

The most interesting thing is how after Egypt was sent back across the Sinai Pennisula, and Phoenicia reinvented Canaan, out of nowhere came Monotheism but still rewrote similar stories. Just tweaked them to give themselves provenance. Which for the time was an absolute BRILLIANT sociopolitical move.

And all of the above had a flood epic of some sort.

Unfortunately, now I must go after Exodus.

Archeological data has concluded The New Kindom of Egypt conquered Canaan around 1500 BCE and controlled as far North as present day Syria. They subjugated the conquered to slavery. They were now bread-beer drinking slave-laborers for The Pharoh.

And he likely kept them in place.

Who conquers a territory and transports everyone they capture back while forgoing control of newly the captured territory?


[Map of New Kingdom of Egypt]

Then around 1250 BCE it all starts to fall apart and Egypt withdraws. A string of bad luck in form of droughts, disease carrying pestilence and resistence contributed mightily to their ultimate withdrawal. Take from that what you will.

Suddenly, The Phoenicians rise from the ashes of no longer occupied Canaan and another group of territories went a Monotheistic route.

While they were former Canaanite slaves themselves a new history was written.

One of the oldest documented hebrew text is actually from the reign of King David. 10th century BCE. Showing that concepts in Judaism actually date back to at least the Twelve tribes of Israel (1210 BCE), which actually existed as a way to divide up territory gained back from Egypt after being subjects of The Pharoh. Initially serperate groups that later decided to call themselves "Hebrew" and unite as "Israel" around a covenant with a monotheistic god and like narrative of Egypt oppression. The origin of "chosen" therein.

The Exodus is (IMO) a colorful historical account of when both polytheistic Phoenicia and "The Twelve Tribes of Israel" gained autonomy from The New Kingdom of Egypt. At the time of "Moses", who may just be a literary device of when negative sentiment against Egypt was HIGH. There is truth to "Israelites" gaining fredom from Egypt. And there is No walking the desert needed, although it makes for a better parable of deliverance from subjugation.

Humorously around 1240 BCE historical accounts in Mesopotamia recorded a pandemic resembling influenza. Desert locusts swarms were also recorded. All at the right time.

There is so much truth that scientific data can back up if mankind can just turn the red words back to black and refine it for modern knowledge.

That is also the point of this waste of time thread as it were.

a reply to: Riffrafter

The Bible was caused by God to punish man.

Really, Riff?

The *Flood* was caused by God to punish man. Not the flippin' *Bible*!

Proof-read, much?!

Jeeez...

a reply to: carsforkids

Reading here makes you think some people don't know God and they have proof for it.

a reply to: Degradation33

And it is a mess.

Who has owned the Holyland? From beginnings of civilation to Rome and around 50 CE?

Everyone.

Mesopotamia/River Valleys (East):

This is typical "cradle of civilization"

2900 - 2500 - Sumer
2500 - 2400 - Lagash
2400 - 2330 - Uma
2330 - 2150 - Akkad
2150 - 2000 - Ur (Sumer)
2000 - 1890 - Old Assyria/Neo Sumer (split North/South)
1890 - 1780 - Small states/Babylon
1780 - 1470 - Old Assyria/Babylonia
1470 - 1350 - Babylonia
1350 - 1285 - Middle Assyria/Babylonia
1285 - 1205 - Middle Assyria
1205 - 1190 - Babylonia
1190 - 1143 - Neo Assyria/ Elam
1143 - 1021 - Babylonia
1021 - 846 - Neo Assyria/ Babylonia
846 - 819 - Neo Assyria
819 - 808 - Neo Assyria/Babylonia
808 - 724 - Neo Assyria
724 - 720 - Neo Assyria/Babylonia
720 - 624 - Neo Assyria
624 - 611 - Neo Assyria /Neo Babylonian
611 - 539 - Neo Babylonian Empire
539 - 483 - Achaemenid Empire (Ancient Persia)
483 - Mesopotamian Revolt
483 - 331 - Achaemenid Empire (Ancient Persia)
331 - 328 - Macedonia/Achaemenid Empire
328 - 324 - Macedonia
324 - 141 - Hellenistic Era (Ancient Greece)
141 BCE - 118 CE - Parthian
118 - Rome

This is where it gets interesting.

This is the typical "Holyland"

1900 - 1470 - Canaan (formerly Akkadians)
1470 - 1210 - New Kingdom (Egypt)
1210 - 1021 - Phoenicia/12 Tribes
1021 - 796 - Phoenicia/Israel
796 - 783 - Neo Assyria
783 - 769 - Phoenicia/Israel
769 - 733 - Judah/Phoenicia/Israel
733 - 724 - Judah/Neo Assyria
724 - 720 - Judah/Israel/ Neo Assyria
720 - 699 - Judah/Neo Assyria
699 - 624 - Neo Assyria
624 - 611 - Judah/Neo Assyria
611 - 608 - Judah/Israel/ Neo Babylonian Empire
608 - 539 - Neo Babylonian Empire
539 - 331 - Achaemenid Empire
331 - 324 - Macedonia
324 - 137 - Hellenistic Era* (Ancient Greece)
137 - 51 - Judea (Herodian Kingdom)
51 BCE - 268 CE - Roman Empire

The most interesting thing is how after Egypt was sent back across the Sinai Pennisula, and Phoenicia reinvented Canaan, out of nowhere came Monotheism but still rewrote similar stories. Just tweaked them to give themselves provenance. Which for the time was an absolute BRILLIANT sociopolitical move.

And all of the above had a flood epic of some sort.

Unfortunately, now I must go after Exodus.

This...THIS...is why I joined ATS 10 years ago!

I learned more from reading this post about our civilization and history than I learned in 4 years of HS, 4 years of college - undergrad, and 2 years of Master's studies!

Magnificent!!

Words fail me...

Now, I can go to bed and sleep.

Thank you.

I will assume that isn't sarcasm.

Thank you, but to be fair I simply transposed a progressive YouTube map and did my best to make sure that dates checked out.



Something I feel I should note.

There is a debate as to whether Canaanites and Phoenician should be considered separate cultures. Even Neo-Canaan for Phoenicia could be valid.

But they rose their ashes alongside these knew people who seemed to veer off making Baal their one true God.

Why does that sound like Stargate?

The title baʿal was a synonym in some contexts of the Hebrew adon ("Lord") and adonai ("My Lord") still used as aliases of the Lord of Israel Yahweh. According to some scholars, the early Hebrews did use the names Baʿal ("Lord") and Baʿali ("My Lord") in reference to the Lord of Israel, just as Baʿal farther north designated the Lord of Ugarit or Lebanon.[50][6] This occurred both directly and as the divine element of some Hebrew theophoric names. However, according to others it is not certain that the name Baal was definitely applied to Yahweh in early Israelite history.

Add in a corresponding ancestry to back up you are indeed Ba'al's Yahweh's chosen children of New Canaan Israel and you are ready to nail it to the cathedral Canaanite temple.

And so it clears up any misunderstanding I am not an atheist. My worldview is self styled and lies somewhere between Advaita Vendenta and Hasidic Kallabah in an ultimately deist interpretation that also denies the existence of an afterlife and soul, but holds the workings of nature, the universe, and the balance therein as the emenation of "god". For every plentiful harvest there is a wave of locusts.

a reply to: Degradation33

There is so much truth that scientific data can back up if mankind can just turn the red words back to black and refine it for modern knowledge.

That is also the point of this waste of time thread as it were.

I like that: "just turn the red words back to black"

That would make such a cool signature, like:

Just turn the red words back to black - Degradation33
just an idea in case someone is looking for a cool signature.

Not a waste of time thread at all.

On the Reviews Page

Never before have I seen such wide swaths of the human experience explicated, distilled, and encapsulated into it's most profound essence as in this post by Degradation33. A must read!

- a random connoisseur of the succinct

a reply to: Degradation33

There is a debate as to whether Canaanites and Phoenician should be considered separate cultures. Even Neo-Canaan for Phoenicia could be valid.

I've read about Philistines before. What I remember is that the Egyptians defeated some people. Those people swore allegiance to Egypt, so Egypt settled those new vassals up the coast as satellite defense for Egyptian Empire.

I've read that the Philistines are the Phoenicians.

In any case, when people live in close proximity, they do intermingle, sometimes rapidly and sometimes slowly. The story told in the book of Ruth seems to be an example of slow integration.

My worldview is self styled and lies somewhere between Advaita Vendenta and Hasidic Kallabah in an ultimately deist interpretation that also denies the existence of an afterlife and soul, but holds the workings of nature, the universe, and the balance therein as the emenation of "god".

I've read some silly popular notions before. One Biggy is that all paths lead up the same mountain. That always struck me as being wrong, based upon what people standing on mountain tops said. Now if there were only one mountain then the people would be describing the same scene. But they describe scenes totally different.

My theory is that there may be one truly awesome scene to be seen. Of the many mountains, some offer a way better chance to see that view. Some mountains are so far away that people may miss the view.

Your mountain seems close to mine, but I couldn't take your path. I found one I could take. Not the same mountain, but close.

a reply to: pthena

S#%&, forgot about The Philistine, perhaps it was an off-color denonym like "Yankee" for the North. Because the Greeks called them Phoenicians, a few different names seem to apply. Canaanite = Phoenician = Philistine.

The thing I like most are the divergent paths the above and the original Israelites took after Egpyts withdrawal.

Both glad to be rid of Egpyt, and both taking a route that the turn of events were a sort of a manifest destiny. One from the ashes one via a burning bush redefining the narrative.

This is the part of my opinion the most ardent supporters of biblical truth take issues with:

Yahweh is an corruption (or redifinition) Baal born of a competing societal and religious narrative

Baal-Eser I (Beleazarus I, Ba‘l-mazzer I) was a king of Tyre. His father, Hiram I, was a contemporary of David and Solomon, kings of Israel.

It paints the picture of a divine schism that much like a civil war had the former Egyptian subjects disagree on their ways. In the North you had a pantheon with a god that stood above the others, The South gravitated towards the god above the others and dropped the pantheon.

That may be why at the outset of monotheism you saw Ba'al and Yahweh used interchangeably.

a reply to: Degradation33

It paints the picture of a divine schism that much like a civil war had the former Egyptian subjects disagree on their ways. In the North you had a pantheon with a god that stood above the others, The South gravitated towards the god above the others and dropped the pantheon.

That may be why at the outset of monotheism you saw Ba'al and Yahweh used interchangeably.

The stories in Genesis where Abram(Abraham) made covenants with others. The memorial stones that they set up usually have two names, depending on the god name of each party.

"Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one"

There have been very many temples, shrines and holy places. 1st temple, 2nd temple; yeah right how about the dozens of other?

It was explained to me that the Judeans wanted Jerusalem to be the only center of power. So the Shema, most likely written during this period, could be interpreted as: "The LORD(YHWH,baal) our God [is not all these ones worshipped in all these places but rather] the LORD(YHWH,baal) is [the] one [worshipped in "the place that God will choose,"].

Something like that anyway.

a reply to: Degradation33

I will assume that isn't sarcasm.

Thank you, but to be fair I simply transposed a progressive YouTube map and did my best to make sure that dates checked out.

No sarcasm at all. I loved reading your post. It really "clicked" something inside of me for some reason.

So, like they always used to say: "Keep those cards and letters coming, friend"

A "worldwide flood" did occur. But it was the world as seen through the eyes of people at that time. Biblical accounts were based on the world as they saw it. Really just a matter of perspective.

Interesting analysis from the National Center for Science Education:

Effects of the Curvature of the Earth

Because of the curvature of the earth, the horizon drops from where the viewer is standing. However, the drop is proportional to the square of the distance between the viewer and an object on the horizon (Young nd). From these relationships, it can be seen that a tribal chief (or Noah) standing on the deck of a large boat (Ark), perhaps 7.8 meters above the water,would not be able to see the tops of any hills as high as 15 m from as little as 24 km away across flood plains covered with water because the curvature of the earth prevents it (See the Appendix for examples of calculations). Most hills in this region that are as much as 15 m high are more than 95 km away from the river levees. Therefore, the survivors of the Flood could see only water in all directions while they were floating down the Tigris River and over the flood plains. Many of these hills would also be partly covered with water which would make their tops project less above the water level, and therefore, the curvature of the earth would make them disappear from the line of sight in even a shorter distance than 24 km.

Northeast and southwest of the nearly flat surface that contains the two rivers, the topography rises to more than 455 m in Saudi Arabia and in Iran. Calculations show that elevations of 455 m high cannot be seen beyond 86 km away, and these places are more than 160 km from the Euphrates or Tigris Rivers. Therefore, none of the high country in Saudi Arabia or Iran would be visible to a tribal chief (or Noah). On that basis, the "whole world" would definitely appear to be covered with water during the Flood, and that was the "whole world" for the people in this part of southeastern Mesopotamia at that time.

Conclusions

If the 3.4-meter–thick layer of flood deposits in southeastern Mesopotamia (MacDonald 1988) represents a huge flood of ancient times, and if it is the remnants of the one described in the early Babylonian epics, then the authors of these epics were likely survivors who lived in a village on natural levees on the lower parts of either the Euphrates or Tigris Rivers where the flood waters covered their village, natural levees, and adjacent flood plains for distances of 160 to 320 kilometers so that no land could be seen, and their "whole world" would have been under water.

ncse.ngo...

a reply to: Degradation33


Yeah Brother ! Give Me that " Old Time " Religion !

a reply to: Phantom423

That may be exactly what I once read.

And it wouldn't take much rain either. I have always inferred (without the meteorology record to back it up) that a cyclone that would normally veer west and hit Yemen or Oman took a more northerly rout into the Persian Gulf hitting near kuwait, like a hurricane going up The Gulf of California making landfall south of Yuma, AZ at the head of the gulf.

Like Yuma, Kuwait sees on average 4 inches of rain a year. The soil is arid and often unsaturable. That amount of rain, with what is known about that flood plain actually lends credence to, say, a commodity barge packed with foodstuff (mainly sheep, goats, and beer) to get lost for as long as The Mesopotamian account suggests.  Which is 7 days adrift, I believe.

I would write about the time everything was submerged too.

Another one of these scientific backed destruction scenarios in the OT is Sodom & Gomorrah.

From Forbes:

New research finds that a powerful airburst from a meteor colliding with the atmosphere may have wiped out a Bronze Age civilization along the north side of the Dead Sea some 3,700 years ago. While the findings come from the excavation of the Tall el-Hammam archaeological site in Jordan, many believe that the same place was once known as Sodom...

... Samples from the site show that an extremely hot, explosive event leveled an area of almost 200 square miles including the Middle Ghor – a circular plain to the north of the Dead Sea.

“…not only wiping out 100 percent of the Middle Bronze Age cities and towns, but also stripping agricultural soils from once-fertile fields,”

Something like The Tunguska event in Siberia comes to mind.

Of course there is natural tendency to find reason why said cities were instantly destroyed by an exploding meteor. And Tall el-Hammam was sorta like Las Vegas, a desert outpost, not exactly known for its pottery.

You write what you see and make assumptions why such a dramatic event happened. It's not easy for anyone to be rational about devastation.

If I was a society back then I wouldn't know what an airburst was, all I would have remembered was the time fire and destruction came from the sky and destroyed a few cities. And given how few societies there were and how large the surface of the earth Is, for this burst to happen over such a precise place is bound to be significant.

Imagine that happening over Las Vegas today. I think you'd be hard pressed to make people NOT see "the hand of god" behind the ultra-rare statistical allotment of bad things that can happen to a city.

In any case (even today) it would DEFINITELY make it into the religious fabric.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: cooperton

For things to have happened as described in Genesis, that amount of fresh water wpuld have also filled the oceans and killed all sea life and wpuld have made the land inarable for generations. Nothing wpuld have survived on land, sea or fresh water. And then there's the whole incest thing if Noah amd his small family were the only lovong humans. Its a scientific impossibility for a world wide flood as described in Genesis.

Genesis is written by a man. The OP postulates that oceans are 100 miles deep on Europa, is it not fair to assume that the man who wrote of the Great flood might have postulated as well when he said the whole of the Earth was flooded?

The Great Flood did in fact happen. But it wasn't from excess water added to the planet. It was "what", was done to the water that was here, already. But to share the mechanics, the causation, certain other bits of truth must be brought out first. When that truth is made public, then everyone will see how the flood was caused. At the same time, you will also see how easy it is to adjust a planets "Seasons". I have zero doubt about this subject.

a reply to: All Seeing Eye

The Great Flood did in fact happen. But it wasn't from excess water added to the planet. It was "what", was done to the water that was here,

And that was?

I am truly interested in other explanations, even ones treading into Sci-fi/fantasy/unknown territory.

I actually had a really plausible counter along those lines.

To paraphrase this person,

Imagine what we know to be god is a hyper-intelligent alien race running a simulation. We are nothing but players in a massive matrix encompassing all causal and acausal events. If it were a fabricated landscape there is absolutely nothing ruling out "1=run global flood program" and "2=end global flood program". Everything becomes plausible as lines of programming. Even the program itself only being 10,000 years old and all our empirical data being a false history encoded in that matrix becomes plausible.

Granted, he used an apologetic styled argument that had no counter, but it was still an interesting "devil's advocate" position to take. And in that case what's to differenciate 10,000 years from 100 or even yesterday?

a reply to: Degradation33I'm not going to run this out with all the circumstantial evidence. Believe me there is sufficient amounts to support the theory.

Ill give it to you in the short version. The Moon was used to start the flood by coming into contact with the earth. The Moon acted like a break and slowed the rotation to a stop in a short amount of time. This caused all bodies of water, and atmosphere to continue at the same speed, slowing down over time. The Moon then came in contact with the earth in another location pulling downward, with minimum contact. It did this 3 times in the same general location. It moved the original North Pole approximately 1000 miles south, to give us are present seasons. The Moon then came in contact with the earth again and restarted the rotation in the opposite direction causing the bodies of water to over-wash in the opposite direction. Before the flood, the Sun Came up, in the west. Afterwards, coming up, in the east.

The dark circles on the moon are were it came into contact with the waters of our oceans, for that is where it made contact.

The Moon is actually the Anunnaki Celestial Chariot. There was no moon, before the flood........

Take it, or leave it. Your welcome, one way, or another