Biblical Refutation of Authoritarianism

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: pthena

As a Christian Pthena and reading your comments I think you have a better understanding of Christianity than Dezineck and probably displayed a better and calmer argument than I would have
Thank you

He's just a troll. Were the original patriots non Christian trowing off tyranny using violence? Should Christians tolerate tyranny today?

a reply to: Raggedyman

You're welcome.

So to keep the context clear, which you value:
1 John 4:

16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

That's why it is important to live love and not just say it.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Raggedyman

You're welcome.

So to keep the context clear, which you value:
1 John 4:

16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

That's why it is important to live love and not just say it.

Unless someone shows up with base ball bats, then your hypocritical spouting of love goes out the window.

a reply to: PhilbertDezineck

Were the original patriots non Christian trowing off tyranny using violence? Should Christians tolerate tyranny today?

The English colonists were citizens of the British Empire. The British Empire was officially Christian. Christians were killing Christians.

Canada did not rebel against the Crown. Canada seems to be fairly free of tyranny. And even England seems to be free of tyranny. So I don't see much good came from Christians taking up arms against the Christian Crown.

I suppose if I were a colonist the patriots would have killed me for being a Tory or whatever they called those non-insurrectionists.

see Loyalist_(American_Revolution)

a reply to: PhilbertDezineck

How many times do I have to say that I'm not a Christian. Just because I read the Bible that doesn't make me a Christian.

originally posted by: PhilbertDezineck

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Raggedyman

You're welcome.

So to keep the context clear, which you value:
1 John 4:

16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19We love because he first loved us. 20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

That's why it is important to live love and not just say it.

Unless someone shows up with base ball bats, then your hypocritical spouting of love goes out the window.

Well possibly Dez but until then I will not and hope I won’t.
And I don’t believe your position is very christian
Though I know many with your theology it’s not mine

What was that movie about the seventh Day Adventist? Not keen on their theology either but it’s relevant

a reply to: Raggedyman

First, I will tell you what I admire about JW teaching.
It is pacifist. It teaches conscientious objection to bearing arms.
Individuals vary among JWs just like any other group of people.
Some of them have gone to prison or been killed for following peace rather than "patriotic fervor".

Now for the off topic part:
I do realize that a crown commission in Australia has been investigating abuses, because I clicked links in that other thread that got trashed.

Individuals vary among JWs just like any other group of people.

I'll keep the woman's relationship confidential. In 1987, she took me into her office and told me things that happened when she was young. I don't know why she told me, but I suspect that it was because someone told her that I was an Elder in a Church.

I was shocked of course. And didn't know if she was expecting me to do something about it. I first explained that I was not in a position to do anything about it. Then I started making the usual excuses like "You can't blame God for what his so called followers do." But she wasn't buying that.

To this day, I hope that what she really wanted was a sympathetic ear who believed her. Because that's all I could do for her. She sure didn't want me to pray for her because her experience had caused her to become an Atheist.

Mark 9

41Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.

42“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.

Most Christians have a teaching about a Last Judgement of one sort or another. But that's a subject that non Christians have no business telling Christians about. It shouldn't be hard to look up.

a reply to: Raggedyman

I'm pretty sure I saw Dez once when I was a kid in Summer Camp.

SDAs have a slightly different teaching than JWs.

SDAs will serve, but not armed. They sort of favor being medics and such. My dad was a communications expert and forward recon in the Solomon Islands.

I'm not sure, but I think JWs don't go in at all, not sure.

Then there's Quakers and Amish and Mennonites.

I read up on the Mennonites once. They were Anabaptist with the Roman Church and the Lutherans both after them. One of their leaders got the hairbrained idea of forcibly taking over a city. They died gruesomely. So their history teaches them that armed rebellion is a not-good thing.

The Branch Davidians: I met some of them before that Vernon Howell character showed up. Nice people. They were really excited and happy about moving to their new location that they called Mount Carmel. They gave me their book which had charts and Bible verses showing that moving to Mount Carmel was fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

You meet people, talk to them, listen to their hopes and dreams. It's like they're brothers and sisters.


see Munster_rebellion

You are the perfect victim.

Meekness has nothing to do with weakness. If you do not believe in defending oneself, then in the end days you will be one of the first to go.....

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: PhilbertDezineck

I keep forgetting those New Testament verses that call for taking up arms against tyrants. Can you list a few?

I can think of many passages like this:
Romans 12

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. c Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” d says the Lord. 20On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” e
21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

My Great Grandfather used to sell books door to door. Those books showed how all the signs have been fulfilled; the end will be some time next week.

My Great Grandfather died, as did my Grandfather, and my Father, and me too in the not too distant future.

I've seen many people die. Some while holding my hand; one in my arms.

a reply to: pthena

I would claim my faith leans heavily on Ana Baptist theology
The Munster rebellion was very unusual and unique for menonites but only too christian and to human

Menonites generally don’t vote, don’t serve in political positions, don’t support party politics and some don’t even serve in government or civil positions but, it’s subjective and individual so, not all of them, personal choice is also important
Also no kingdom theology in menonite teaching that I find is common sense
Free will and non violence

a reply to: pthena

I am disgusted by JW,org, they spent years trashing the Catholics and their abuses till the Catholics fessed up
Then they copped the same allegations and now instead of admitting guilt, following civil law as commanded by the bible they deny justice

And if anyone gets door knocked, hit them up with the pedophile thing and watch the cult followers run. They are lied to and most don’t even know the truth. It must get out there

If I was at a church that hid the truth I wouldn’t stay.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
You are the perfect victim.

Meekness has nothing to do with weakness. If you do not believe in defending oneself, then in the end days you will be one of the first to go.....

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: PhilbertDezineck

I keep forgetting those New Testament verses that call for taking up arms against tyrants. Can you list a few?

I can think of many passages like this:
Romans 12

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. c Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” d says the Lord. 20On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” e
21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Jesus strikes me as the perfect victim, from the day of birth till His death

a reply to: Raggedyman

Menno Simons was around the time of the Munster rebellion, but not a participant. The Mennonites get their name from him. He became prominent after the rebellion.

Menno Simons rejected the violence advocated by the Münster movement, believing it was not Scriptural.[7] His theology was focused on separation from this world, and baptism by repentance symbolized this.[7]

For true evangelical faith is of such a nature that it cannot lie dormant; but manifests itself in all righteousness and works of love; it dies unto flesh and blood; destroys all forbidden lusts and desires; cordially seeks, serves and fears God; clothes the naked; feeds the hungry; consoles the afflicted; shelters the miserable; aids and consoles all the oppressed; returns good for evil; serves those that injure it; prays for those that persecute it; teaches, admonishes and reproves with the Word of the Lord; seeks that which is lost; binds up that which is wounded; heals that which is diseased and saves that which is sound. The persecution, suffering and anxiety which befalls it for the sake of the truth of the Lord, is to it a glorious joy and consolation.

— Menno Simons, Why I Do Not Cease Teaching and Writing, 1539
Menno_Simons

Also no kingdom theology in menonite teaching that I find is common sense

Not sure of your meaning. Is it you approve that there is no kingdom theology - or- you disapprove that there is no kingdom theology.

a reply to: Raggedyman

I don't know what to say. I could tell the story of the time I saw some Tony Alamo kids. They were very traumatized and scared.

a reply to: pthena

Ana Baptist’s believe and I agree
You want to be atheist, that’s your choice and Christians should love you
It’s not a christians job to win, cajole, pressure or force faith on people, just love people

We are not here to set up a theocracy, fight battles, force faith, just love

Kingdom theology is setting up Gods kingdom on earth or trying to
Like the anti gay vote, it’s not a christians duty to force our faith on the state, they choose.
Free will is a gift from God, not my responsibility to change others choices.

a reply to: Raggedyman

It isn't possible to force faith.
What may seem like faith is quite often someone just going along with the peer pressure. Even when there's a nice mellow alter call, there is a psychological urge to fit in. That's not faith either.

Kingdom theology is setting up Gods kingdom on earth

I can't think of the verse that instructs Christians to set up a kingdom on Earth.
You might want to check with Disraeli about the difference between the visible church and the invisible church.

There are so many versions of and hybrids and just listing the major ones would be a chore. And my brain is about shot now just thinking of the names of them.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Raggedyman

It isn't possible to force faith.
What may seem like faith is quite often someone just going along with the peer pressure. Even when there's a nice mellow alter call, there is a psychological urge to fit in. That's not faith either.

Yep, that’s why I agree with AB theology
Most others don’t see it that way

a reply to: pthena

I've just got to tell part of this before I stop.

It's about hope and tragedy.
The human spirit, pride, and dignity.

There were five or six of them, the oldest and bravest, a boy of about 15.
The girl about 9 or 10 gave me a glass of water or lemonade, I don't remember which.
The girl about 7, sitting cross legged on the floor, couldn't move for fear, stared at me with big brown eyes.
Two or three others walked about aimlessly in the background, never looking up.

After I finished the phone call, I turned around and smiled at the 7 year old. She didn't move, didn't even blink her big staring eyes.

The brave boy then brightened up, asked "Would you like me to show you around?"
"Sure" I replied, "It'll be about 45 minutes for my ride to get here."

The place was an old run down chicken ranch. He showed me this and that. Then he straightened up, held his head up, even stuck his chest out a bit. And proudly declared, "We're going to convert this coop into a bunkhouse."

So there it is, the human spirit! "We're going to convert this coop into a bunkhouse."

a reply to: pthena

“If the Trumpet Sounds an Indistinct Call . . .” (Awake!—1987)

“IF THE trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle?” (1 Corinthians 14:8) Could the indifference shown by German Lutherans​—soldiers of the church—​be because the church is sounding an indistinct call? Consider the evidence.

An Identity Crisis

Over the past 200 years, claimed Lutheran deacon Wolfram Lackner, Protestantism has progressively abandoned its original confessions of faith. So German Protestantism now “finds itself in a critical identity crisis.”

This identity crisis became more apparent in the 1930’s, as William L. Shirer’s book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich explains: “The Protestants in Germany . . . were a divided faith. . . . With the rise of National Socialism there came further divisions . . . The more fanatical Nazis among them organized in 1932 ‘The German Christians’ Faith Movement’ . . . [and] ardently supported the Nazi doctrines of race and the leadership principle . . . Opposed to the ‘German Christians’ was another minority group which called itself the ‘Confessional Church.’ . . . In between lay the majority of Protestants, . . . who sat on the fence and eventually, for the most part, landed in the arms of Hitler.”

Actually, some of Luther’s teachings played right into Hitler’s hands. Luther’s “two kingdoms” doctrine, arguing that God rules the world through both secular and church authorities, encourages strict submission to civil officials. Thus, the Lutheran publication Unsere Kirche admits that “the greater part of German Protestantism . . . celebrated the end of the Weimar democracy with great enthusiasm and cheered the new dictator.” In view of Luther’s strong anti-Semitic sentiments, the church did not find it difficult to bar from the ministry persons not of Aryan descent.

But what about the “Confessional Church”? In 1934 it adopted the Barmen Declaration, which expressed opposition to National Socialist ideology. A Berlin exhibition about Protestantism during the Third Reich recently revealed, however, that only a third of the Protestant clergy supported the “Confessional Church.” And not even all of that third actively opposed Hitler. The opposition of those who did was apparently misinterpreted by Hitler to mean opposition by the church as a whole. The book Der deutsche Widerstand 1933-1945 (German Resistance 1933-1945) contends that thus was imputed to the Lutheran Church a position of political opposition that it itself did not choose.

After Hitler’s downfall, the church was in shambles. Which of the opposing factions had mirrored its true identity? Why had its trumpet call been so indistinct?

To clear up these questions, 11 leading Protestant clergymen, including Gustav Heinemann, later to become president of the Federal Republic, met in October 1945 to draw up the so-called Stuttgart admission of guilt. Despite their opposition to the Nazi regime, they said: “We accuse ourselves for not having been more courageous in confessing our convictions, more faithful in saying our prayers, more joyful in expressing our faith, and more ardent in showing our love.” These clergymen hoped that this declaration would be a distinct trumpet call to action, triggering a fresh start.

A Religious or a Political Trumpet​—Which?
...

Why the Churches Kept Silent (Awake!—1995)

...
Role of Catholic Church

Catholic historian E. I. Watkin wrote: “Painful as the admission must be, we cannot in the interest of a false edification or dishonest loyalty deny or ignore the historical fact that Bishops have consistently supported all wars waged by the government of their country. . . . Where belligerent nationalism is concerned they have spoken as the mouthpiece of Caesar.”

When Watkin said that bishops of the Catholic Church “supported all wars waged by the government of their country,” he included the wars of aggression waged by Hitler. As Roman Catholic professor of history at Vienna University, Friedrich Heer, admitted: “In the cold facts of German history, the Cross and the swastika came ever closer together, until the swastika proclaimed the message of victory from the towers of German cathedrals, swastika flags appeared round altars and Catholic and Protestant theologians, pastors, churchmen and statesmen welcomed the alliance with Hitler.”

Catholic Church leaders gave such unqualified support to Hitler’s wars that the Roman Catholic professor Gordon Zahn wrote: “The German Catholic who looked to his religious superiors for spiritual guidance and direction regarding service in Hitler’s wars received virtually the same answers he would have received from the Nazi ruler himself.”

That Catholics obediently followed the direction of their church leaders was documented by Professor Heer. He noted: “Of about thirty-​two million German Catholics​—fifteen and a half million of whom were men—​only seven [individuals] openly refused military service. Six of these were Austrians.” More recent evidence indicates that a few other Catholics, as well as some Protestants, stood up against the Nazi State because of religious convictions. Some even paid with their lives, while at the same time their spiritual leaders were selling out to the Third Reich.

Who Else Was Silent, Who Was Not

As noted above, Professor Heer included Protestant leaders among those who “welcomed the alliance with Hitler.” Is that true?

Many Protestants have writhed in self-​incrimination for remaining silent during Hitler’s wars of aggression. For example, 11 leading clergymen met in October 1945 to draw up the so-​called Stuttgart admission of guilt. They said: “We accuse ourselves for not having been more courageous in confessing our convictions, more faithful in saying our prayers, more joyful in expressing our faith, and more ardent in showing our love.”

Paul Johnson’s History of Christianity said: “Of 17,000 Evangelical pastors, there were never more than fifty serving long terms [for not supporting the Nazi regime] at any one time.” Contrasting such pastors with Jehovah’s Witnesses, Johnson wrote: “The bravest were the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who proclaimed their outright doctrinal opposition from the beginning and suffered accordingly. They refused any cooperation with the Nazi state.”

Back in 1939, the year World War II began, Consolation quoted T. Bruppacher, a Protestant minister, as saying: “While men who call themselves Christians have failed in the decisive tests, these unknown witnesses of Jehovah, as Christian martyrs, are maintaining unshakable opposition against coercion of conscience and heathen idolatry. The future historian must some day acknowledge that not the great churches, but these slandered and scoffed-​at people, were the ones who stood up first against the rage of the Nazi demon . . . They refuse the worship of Hitler and the Swastika.”

Similarly, Martin Niemoeller, a Protestant church leader who himself had been in a Nazi concentration camp, later confessed: ‘It may be truthfully recalled that Christian churches, throughout the ages, have always consented to bless war, troops, and arms and that they prayed in a very unchristian way for the annihilation of their enemy.’ He admitted: “All this is our fault and our fathers’ fault, but obviously not God’s fault.”

Niemoeller then added: “And to think that we Christians of today are ashamed of the so-​called sect of the serious scholars of the Bible [Jehovah’s Witnesses], who by the hundreds and thousands have gone into concentration camps and died because they refused to serve in war and declined to fire on human beings.”

Susannah Heschel, a professor of Judaic studies, uncovered church documents proving that the Lutheran clergy were willing, yes anxious, to support Hitler. She said they begged for the privilege of displaying the swastika in their churches. The overwhelming majority of clergymen were not coerced collaborators, her research showed, but were enthusiastic supporters of Hitler and his Aryan ideals.

As a lecturer, Heschel is frequently asked by church members, “What could we have done?”

“You could have been like Jehovah’s Witnesses,” she replies.

...

[continued in next comment, but continuing with the first article]