Blackface vs Womanface

originally posted by: FauxMulder
what the hell is MCP?

Master control panel?
Media communication processor?
Market clearing price?
Master of city planning?

More
Cowbell
Please.

a reply to: Boadicea
You're correct. Though, natural laws do not change. Principles modify...natural laws by design are...natural. Sort of...

I don't know. I was in band back in the early 2000s and we did a set once where we did all 90s cover songs by female bands/artists. We wore dresses, wigs, and put on makeup and overall it was a blast. And this was in a scene that had some pretty aggressive feminists and such.

I'm pretty sure if I had butchered "What's Up" any worse than I had I would have been lit on fire.

In hindsight though. Idk. I still don't think it was sexist or anti-feminist. We definitely weren't trying to pass as women. It was more for show than anything.

As far as actual drag shows and men who get all overdone. That's not even feminine in my opinion. To me it's just over the top caricaturization or even a mockery of beauty standards. i don't know a single person who actually thinks Kiss or Twisted Sister were feminine.

I've known men who do drag shows who don't even wear stuffed bras. They're men. I actually think it's cheating for a trans woman to do drag shows. They've already artificially altered their body to resemble a woman's.

Another thing is that it's always seemed a little bemusing that people always equate makeup as being feminine, strictly a woman's thing, when men have worm makeup all throughout history. It's art. It's an expression of oneself.

Now people mostly use it to hide what their insecure about and "contour" (in my opinion hide) their faces to be more Instagram-able.

Black face? I don't care much for it as far as how it's usually utilized. I think when it comes to acting or portraying other ethnicities in film or on stage that a person of the actual ethnicity and/or culture be casted.

It is odd though that in the case of "white-face" as seen in the movie White Girls, it is funny. I think the difference is intention. They were critiquing the stereotypes of white girls, but it also had the additional layer of it being gender swapping as well.

Throughout recent history crossdressing or gender reversal has been a common enough comedy act. Robin Williams is a notable example. Mel Gibson even gets in touch with his softer side in What Women Want.

The thing is that when black face is done it's always done in a manner that's inconsiderate and rude. People who have donned black face didn't just do it for harmless fun, but maintained an air of perpetuating an ignorant behavior.

I've yet to see someone do blackface and act like an intelligent, respectable black person.

Well, I take that back. Robert Downey Jr. In Tropic Thunder actually did so. He didn't portray a black man as stupid, or incapable, or ignorant.

Well, he wasn't really portraying a black man at all in his act.

Blackface was never funny in my opinion. But seeing two black men not only act as white people, but as white women. That was funny. Not because they were simply insulting white people in general, but the ditzy, blonde, sorority type. No one takes them seriously anyways.

As far as seeing men dress in drag? It's not like they are actually trying to pass as women. Many of them may be gay in whatever way, and just about as many may be straight. What they share in common is the desire to do crazy makeup and wigs and costumes.

Hell, it's not even that simple. There are multiple reasons for people to do whatever it is that makes them tick.

Some dudes even like to get dress up as women as crossdressers or "sissies" and used as women, and I think that's weirder than drag.

At least the guys I know who do drag have some backbone and can be tough.

The sissies are just cringey. Like just weak. No backbone. Can't stand up for themselves. Just disgusting in my opinion. Grown men, regardless of their sexuality or if they have a penis or not should be able to stick up for themselves and defend themselves, but I say the same for women as well.

I can't stand people with that kind of subservient, self-defeating, self-victimizing attitude.

originally posted by: AutomateThis1
Well, I take that back. Robert Downey Jr. In Tropic Thunder actually did so. He didn't portray a black man as stupid, or incapable, or ignorant.

I don't look at what he did as blackface, to me it was makeup.

a reply to: Nothin

Thanks for your thoughtful, and thought-provoking thread.
Don't have any answers, only more questions....

And very good questions they are! Just how far do we want to take this? Well, not you and me, but generally speaking.

Rich Little is one I've kept in mind because he was so good at impersonations -- and never in an insulting way. And only with his voice. I don't recall him dressing the part, tho he may have. But if it's wrong to dress the part, then logically wouldn't it be just as wrong to voice the part?

Where does "mimicry is the highest form of flattery" come into the picture?

Which brings us back to the intent and purpose...

More questions indeed!

originally posted by: AutomateThis1
I don't know. I was in band back in the early 2000s and we did a set once where we did all 90s cover songs by female bands/artists... I still don't think it was sexist or anti-feminist. We definitely weren't trying to pass as women. It was more for show than anything.

It doesn't sound like you were trying to mock or ridicule the bands you were covering either. Nothing insulting -- in fact, it probably showed a certain respect and appreciation for their music. And all bands tent to have their own "look," so it wouldn't be unreasonable to dress the part in that sense. It's part of the show.

As far as actual drag shows and men who get all overdone. That's not even feminine in my opinion. To me it's just over the top caricaturization or even a mockery of beauty standards. i don't know a single person who actually thinks Kiss or Twisted Sister were feminine.

Love Twisted Sister!!! And no... no one thought they were feminine! But music is a perfect example of bands/singers having their own "look," and the feminine part was just part of their look. Will anyone ever forget the Spandex era??? We can go back to Elton John and even Liberace for outrageous dressing up. And I'm not even sure any of them were trying to be feminine, just more expressing their own selves. And why should only women have certain aesthetics? Colors, textures, styles, etc., can be dual or multi-purposed!

Another thing is that it's always seemed a little bemusing that people always equate makeup as being feminine, strictly a woman's thing, when men have worm makeup all throughout history. It's art. It's an expression of oneself.

Now people mostly use it to hide what their insecure about and "contour" (in my opinion hide) their faces to be more Instagram-able.

This is very true. Dandies and popinjays and fops were all once quite the rage for men. Can't forget the white powdered wigs of the day, eh? And plenty of women (like myself) have never worn makeup -- at least not regularly. Just for special occasions where I know my pic will be taken mostly...

Black face? I don't care much for it as far as how it's usually utilized....The thing is that when black face is done it's always done in a manner that's inconsiderate and rude. People who have donned black face didn't just do it for harmless fun, but maintained an air of perpetuating an ignorant behavior.

I've yet to see someone do blackface and act like an intelligent, respectable black person.

Which brings us back to how it's done and why. We now have plenty of very talented Black actors and actresses free to do Black parts... no need for White actors to portray them.

But seeing two black men not only act as white people, but as white women. That was funny. Not because they were simply insulting white people in general, but the ditzy, blonde, sorority type. No one takes them seriously anyways.

I hate the ditzy, blond, sorority type in pretty much anything... so I wasn't crazy about that whole movie. But unfortunately it is a thing.

Some dudes even like to get dress up as women as crossdressers or "sissies" and used as women, and I think that's weirder than drag.

That's a whole 'nother thread... but, yeah, that's it's own weirdness.

originally posted by: Boadicea

...Which brings us back to the intent and purpose...

More questions indeed!

Indeed: it seems we are circling around, with all of these questions.

Could it be that asking all of these questions, is showing us that we have yet to answer the most basic questions ?
If so: what might that look like ?
You know: the basic question, underneath our original questions ?
That which could be explained to a child, and it would be clear and obvious to all of us ?

It's quite clear to most of us now, that donning blackface is perceived as denigrating, and hurtful.

Why is it ok to do one, but not the other ?
Where is the line ?

( Oh noes: we're still going in circles ! LoL ! )

a reply to: Nothin

( Oh noes: we're still going in circles ! LoL ! )

No wonder my head is spinning...

But I guess it's just a matter of considering each incident on its own merit in terms of intent and purpose. The proof is in the pudding. We can determine if it's done with good will or ill.

It is propably tre that 'blackface' is and has been used as a racial slur.

BUT, being a collector ot all types of music years ago I can recall an album, I believed it was called "Last of the Minstrel Men" with an assortment of singers from way back incuding the very famous Al Jolson, and the comedian and singer Geroge Jessel - In Black face doing songs of the old minstrel men entertainers from the South.

Not only was the Black face not meant as an insult, I believe it was meant as a compliment to the famous black minstrel men of the South from way back when.

I believe this 'playing the race card' on every issue imaginable is not productive to the black cause - Wasn't it supposed to be racial equality? - Isn't that what Martin Luther King wanted?

The race card is being played way too much in the contemprary World - And that, probably more than anything else,
will further more racism.

a reply to: Boadicea
Monty Python was lauded as being comedy genius but they were very misogynistic.

originally posted by: Dutchowl
a reply to: Boadicea
Monty Python was lauded as being comedy genius but they were very misogynistic.

Yes, they were quite misogynistic. I enjoyed "Life of Brian," but other than that I wasn't a fan. I was still pretty young, and I'm sure many things went right over my head, but I knew there was an ugly element to it without fully understanding that ugly element. I hope that makes sense!

There was a Fox theater up the street from us that used to play Monty Python movies every Friday at midnight. The movie goers would dress up in their Monty Python gear and it would get very rowdy and raunchy. The movie-goers were not nice people. Rapes were common. Monty Python night ended after a good friend from of mine from high school was shot and killed and his girlfriend raped.

With age, experience and hindsight, I think I understand now better than I ever wanted to know. Ugh.

Has anyone consider how insulting and offensive man-face might be?

originally posted by: Lysergic
Has anyone consider how insulting and offensive man-face might be?

Tony Robbins' massive face is offensive to me.

originally posted by: Lysergic

Has anyone consider how insulting and offensive man-face might be?

I have actually -- for all the same reasons. For whatever reason though, drag kings do not get the same attention and celebration as drag queens.

Are drag kings a big thing in your neck of the woods? Are you seeing something that the rest of us aren't?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Tony Robbins' massive face is offensive to me.

Tony Robbins is an offense to the human race.

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: Lysergic

Has anyone consider how insulting and offensive man-face might be?

Are drag kings a big thing in your neck of the woods? Are you seeing something that the rest of us aren't?

Come to twitter for ultimate lulz.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Lysergic
Has anyone consider how insulting and offensive man-face might be?

Tony Robbins' massive face is offensive to me.

a reply to: Lysergic

Um... yeah... no, thank you.

Twitter is a cesspit that I avoid as much as absolutely possible!

Watch "White Chicks". That's got white face, woman face and drag.

It's a great movie to teach people about modern "tolerance". Just be sure to not make a movie like it in reverse. You'll be racist/sexist/homphobic then probably like "Soul Man" is today. (I assume)

Gotta love how despite all our tech advancements, we've actually begun regressing as a species.
Top stuff!

originally posted by: Boadicea
Why is Blackface bad but Drag is good?
What am I missing???

The history of both?
Drag has historically celebrated women.
And what you are calling drag is just Drag Queens [dressing up like women, usually done by men], when Real Drag has a history of Drag Kings[dressing up as men usually done by women].

While the History of blackface is that it is used to both make fun of actual dark skinned folk, and to keep them out of playing black roles.

But the answers I am giving to the OP assume they care about facts. I am not the OP and thus don't know if they just wanted to smugly make some post that doesn't care about facts so they can pretend the left is just hypocrites. IF the latter is true then I am sorry for busting into your thread.