What's wrong with the God of the gaps that Darwinist like to say when losing a debate

a reply to: neoholographic

You know, the bottom line here is pretty simple. Until he/she/it comes down to say hello and explain facts in person, nothing you say here matters. All of your most elaborate blow hard threads don't mean a thing unless something cosmically hyper intelligent stops by and tells us some really smart stuff that can be confirmed with practical examples. All this thread really proved is how very hard you have to dig for anything kinda resembling intelligent design. And you can't even provide a manufacturing address or a business card or a gps coordinate or a footprint. There's no "god gene" or spirit molecule or cute graffiti that says hey, I'm real and come find me. Nothing at all to indicate someone out there knew you would be looking in this exact spot and wanted to communicate. Sorry but it would be world changing news if there was anything to see. Keep trying buddy.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Aren’t you denying the experience of entheogenic drugs?

You know repeatable tests which have measurable psychological and physical effects?

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: TzarChasm

Aren’t you denying the experience of entheogenic drugs?

You know repeatable tests which have measurable psychological and physical effects?

Feel free to document your own tests and share them here. Just be very careful about not explicitly mentioning any drug use.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Even before experimenting I suffered from a condition which medical science is at a loss to explain.

A condition many other people suffer from around the world with varying degrees of severity.

In fact I believe my condition is directly linked to the pineal gland and my visual cortex. The experience of inducing N,N-Dimethyltryptamine is similar to what I see when I close my eyes although with the drug the experience has much more depth, is much more intense and involves feelings of ego death and connection to the universe.

When you’ve met entities beyond what we call reality it’s difficult to dismiss them, especially when your reason and logic appears unaffected. While under the influence of '___' you feel perfectly aware, in fact it heightens your perception and focus rather than diminishing them.

It’s also naturally produced in the body and poses no danger.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

You know, the bottom line here is pretty simple. Until he/she/it comes down to say hello and explain facts in person, nothing you say here matters. All of your most elaborate blow hard threads don't mean a thing unless something cosmically hyper intelligent stops by and tells us some really smart stuff that can be confirmed with practical examples. All this thread really proved is how very hard you have to dig for anything kinda resembling intelligent design. And you can't even provide a manufacturing address or a business card or a gps coordinate or a footprint. There's no "god gene" or spirit molecule or cute graffiti that says hey, I'm real and come find me. Nothing at all to indicate someone out there knew you would be looking in this exact spot and wanted to communicate. Sorry but it would be world changing news if there was anything to see. Keep trying buddy.

You don't add anything to the debate. You don't provide or refute any evidence. You just make these asinine comments to try and justify your blind belief in materialism. You said:

And you can't even provide a manufacturing address or a business card or a gps coordinate or a footprint.

This is just so illogical.

Tell me, did intelligence create these cave paintings?







If we go by your illogical statements, we can't use logic, reason and the evidence to infer these cave paintings were designed by intelligence because we don't know who the designer is. We don't have a business card, a footprint or gps coordinate.

This is just silly.

What if we go to Mars again or Europa and we see something that looks closely related to cave paintings and Hieroglyphics, can we use reason, logic and the evidence to infer intelligent design even though we don't know who the Aliens are and we don't have any fooprints, gps or business card?

See how illogical you sound?

I understand it though, because a natural interpretation of evolution is illogical so why wouldn't it's blind defenders make asinine comments?

a reply to: neoholographic

Cave art isn't proof of intelligent design anymore than fish leaving a geometric pattern in the sand. And notice that I am not making any comments about your personal character? Let's not be childish here, it might leave the impression that your spirituality is a charade. You asked about why the god of the gaps expression is so popular, we have given you a list of the gaps that comprise both the identity and motivation of this creature. Ignorance that god was made to resolve, and ignorance that enables "him" to do so. Here's another expression: cognitive dissonance. Your theory is nothing but gaps and that's why you are so desperate to make evolution look stupid because that is in fact the only chance you have to confirm the mere possibility of a deity let alone actually proving its existence.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

Cave art isn't proof of intelligent design anymore than fish leaving a geometric pattern in the sand. And notice that I am not making any comments about your personal character? Let's not be childish here, it might leave the impression that your spirituality is a charade. You asked about why the god of the gaps expression is so popular, we have given you a list of the gaps that comprise both the identity and motivation of this creature. Ignorance that god was made to resolve, and ignorance that enables "him" to do so. Here's another expression: cognitive dissonance. Your theory is nothing but gaps and that's why you are so desperate to make evolution look stupid because that is in fact the only chance you have to confirm the mere possibility of a deity let alone actually proving its existence.

It's a reductio ad absurdem to show how asinine your comments were.

If we follow your illogical statements we can never use reason, logic and the evidence to infer intelligent design. We have to have an address, business card, footprints or gps before we can use reason, logic and the evidence to infer intelligent design.

Your statements were just silly but you make them to try and defend the illogical.

Gaps that require an intelligent designer.

The only thing natural about a natural interpretation of evolution is natural selection.

Natural selection is just something that happens after the fact. It happens after the organism has reached the environment. It simply says these traits can survive better in the environment so they will populate the environment more via reproduction.

This says NOTHING about the origin of life!

This says NOTHING about how seperate parts evolved with the right size and shape to come together to form molecular machines that carry out needed tasks.

This says NOTHING as to how information was encoded on the sequence of a storage medium and the information was encoded to build the machinery to decode this information.

This says NOTHING about how information was encoded in non coding sequences that regulate the expression of coding sequences.

This says NOTHING about irreducible organisation where different levels of information work together in very coordinated ways.

These are not gaps they're gulfs that require an explanation that can't be provided by a natural interpretation of evolution in any way, shape or form.

This is why your posts are devoid of logic and any evidence to support your blind belief in materialism.

a reply to: neoholographic

IF you find God's address and it is a literal instruction on how to find an actual person, feel free to post it.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

IF you find God's address and it is a literal instruction on how to find an actual person, feel free to post it.

Such a childish response.

Who said God was an actual person? Why would God have an address when God is Omnipresent?

This has nothing to do with the thread or the intelligent desin interpretation of evolution. I understand your dilemma though. You have blind belief in materialism yet a natural interpretation of evolution is being destroyed and you have no evidence to refute anything that's being said. So you want to talk about God's address when you see this:

This says NOTHING about the origin of life!

This says NOTHING about how seperate parts evolved with the right size and shape to come together to form molecular machines that carry out needed tasks.

This says NOTHING as to how information was encoded on the sequence of a storage medium and the information was encoded to build the machinery to decode this information.

This says NOTHING about how information was encoded in non coding sequences that regulate the expression of coding sequences.

This says NOTHING about irreducible organisation where different levels of information work together in very coordinated ways.

I can understand why you're reduced to childish nonsense. You can't present any evidence that supports your blind belief in materialism.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

You know, the bottom line here is pretty simple. Until he/she/it comes down to say hello and explain facts in person, nothing you say here matters.

You mean Jesus Christ? The answer is right in front of your face, but you deny it due to bias

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

Cave art isn't proof of intelligent design anymore than fish leaving a geometric pattern in the sand.

Way to dismiss the entire field of archaeology. Archaeologists draw conclusions about earlier civilizations, often from items that have lain buried for thousands of years. Imagine, for example, that an archaeologist has unearthed dozens of carefully cut stone blocks of precisely the same size neatly aligned on top of one another. They are also set out in a distinct geometric pattern that does not occur naturally. What would the archaeologist conclude? Would he attribute his find to coincidence? Most likely not. Rather, he would interpret it as evidence of past human activities, and that would be a reasonable conclusion.

To be consistent, should we not apply the same reasoning to the design manifest in the natural world? Many people have taken that view, including respected scientists.

Years ago, British mathematician, physicist, and astronomer Sir James Jeans wrote that in the light of advancing scientific knowledge, “the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine.” He also stated that “the universe appears to have been designed by a pure mathematician” and that it provides “evidence of a designing or controlling power that has something in common with our own individual minds.”

Other scientists have arrived at a similar conclusion since Jeans penned those words. “The overall organization of the universe has suggested to many a modern astronomer an element of design,” wrote physicist Paul Davies. One of the most famous physicists and mathematicians of all time, Albert Einstein, wrote: “The fact that [the natural world] is comprehensible is a miracle.” In the eyes of many, that miracle includes life itself, from its fundamental building blocks to the amazing human brain.

DNA is the genetic material of all cellular organisms and the molecular basis for heredity. This complex acid has been compared to a blueprint or a recipe, for DNA is packed with information, which is encoded in chemical form and stored in a molecular environment that is capable of interpreting that code and acting on it. How much information is stored in DNA? If the basic units, called nucleotides, were converted into letters of the alphabet, they would “occupy more than a million pages of a typical book,” says one reference.

In most organisms, DNA is bundled up into threadlike bodies called chromosomes, which are safely stored inside each cell’s nucleus. The nuclei, in turn, have an average diameter of about 0.0002 of an inch [5 micrometers]. Think about that​—all the information that produced your unique body is found in tiny packages that have to be observed under a microscope! As one scientist rightly said, living organisms have “by far the most compact information storage/​retrieval system known.” That’s saying something when you reflect on the memory capacity of computer chips, DVDs, and the like! What is more, DNA has by no means revealed all its secrets. “Every discovery reveals a new complexity,” says New Scientist magazine. (When Charles Darwin formulated his ideas on evolution, he had no idea of the complexity of the living cell.)

Is it reasonable to attribute such perfection of design and organization to blind chance? If you were to stumble across a highly technical manual a million pages thick and written in an efficient, elegant code, would you conclude that the book somehow wrote itself? What if that book were so small that you needed a powerful microscope to read it? And what if it contained precise instructions for the manufacture of a self-repairing, self-replicating intelligent machine with billions of parts, all of which had to be fitted together at precisely the right time and in the right way? To be sure, the notion that such a book just happened would not even enter one’s mind.

After examining current research on the inner workings of the cell, British philosopher Antony Flew, once a leading champion of atheism, stated: “The almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), [show] that intelligence must have been involved.” Flew believes in “following the argument no matter where it leads.” In his case it led to a complete change in thinking, so that he now believes in God.

The human brain too leaves many scientists in awe. A product of DNA, the brain has been described as “the most complicated object in the universe.” Even the most advanced supercomputer looks positively primitive next to this approximately three-pound pinkish-gray mass of neurons and other structures. In the opinion of one neuroscientist, the more that scientists learn about the brain and the mind, “the more magnificent and unknowable it becomes.”

Consider: The brain enables us to breathe, laugh, cry, solve puzzles, build computers, ride a bicycle, write poetry, and look up at the night sky with a sense of reverential awe. Is it reasonable​—indeed, consistent—​to attribute these abilities and capacities to blind evolutionary forces?

Belief Based on Evidence

In order to understand ourselves, should we look down, as it were, to apes and other animals, as evolutionists do? Or should we look up to God for answers? Granted, we have certain things in common with animals. We have to eat, drink, and sleep, for example, and we are able to reproduce. Still, we are unique in many ways. Reason suggests that our distinct human traits stem from a Being higher than ourselves​—that is, from God. The Bible put that thought succinctly, stating that God formed mankind “in his image” morally and spiritually speaking. (Genesis 1:27) Why not contemplate God’s qualities, some of which are recorded at Deuteronomy 32:4; James 3:17, 18; and 1 John 4:7, 8.

Our Creator has given us the “intellectual capacity” to investigate the world around us and to find satisfying answers to our questions. (1 John 5:20) In this regard, physicist and Nobel laureate William D. Phillips wrote: “When I examine the orderliness, understandability, and beauty of the universe, I am led to the conclusion that a higher intelligence designed what I see. My scientific appreciation of the coherence, and the delightful simplicity of physics strengthens my belief in God.”

Some two thousand years ago, a discerning observer of the natural world wrote: “[God’s] invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship.” (Romans 1:20) The writer​—the Christian apostle Paul—​was an intelligent man and highly educated in the Mosaic Law. His reason-based faith made God a reality to him, while his acute sense of justice moved him to give due credit to God for his creative works.

If ancient structural design is attributed to humans, to whom do we attribute design in nature?

Molecular Machinery of Life

Psalm 139:13-16

13 For you produced my kidneys;
You kept me screened off in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because in an awe-inspiring way I am wonderfully made.
Your works are wonderful,
I know this very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from you
When I was made in secret,
When I was woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes even saw me as an embryo;
All its parts were written in your book
Regarding the days when they were formed,
Before any of them existed.

originally posted by: whereislogic

If ancient structural design is attributed to humans, to whom do we attribute design in nature?

Evidence of Design from Biology. A Presentation by Dr. Michael Behe at the University of Toronto (playlist + context)

Does the god of the gaps exist? Surely God is also god of gaps, He is The Almighty Most High.

See atheists believe in a god, the god of the gaps. Even with reasoning everybody finds that there is a god.

Not sure why they call themselves atheïst though, perhaps to confuse imposters.

a reply to: neoholographic

This OP is completely bait, but it's debate bait, so I am in.

GATTACA could be compared to binary machine code so you might have A good response to my following questions.

Maybe even a better answer that covers all the data and observations without deferring to genetic mutations for why it always lines up. I have an open mind to alternatives.

But I have some problems. A few of those "there is just one more thing" issues.

I went to school for Geology (Geoscience)

In the many studies into plate tectonics and continental drift you learn about "Gondwana". A supercontinent (post Pangea) that started to break apart 180 million years ago. The supercontinent was comprised of Anarctica, South America, and Africa, and broke apart drifting in opposing directions. Can get really technical if requested.

While biology wasn't front and center, there was a major importance of it because slightly different animal lineages (mostly small animals, plants, and insects) and fossils on each side of the ocean put together the puzzle of continental drift.



I used Penguins to demonstrate the above image. I should have used these distinct animals and their descendants millions of years later on each continent.

A family friend had a cat. It was a Savannah Cat. It was half serval half tabby. An expensive hybrid that played fetch like a dog and was absolutely gigantic for a house cat.

Reading more I learned a house cat is 95.6% tiger as determined by genome sequencing.

From Nature.com:

Additionally, analysis of the tiger draft genome assembly for core eukaryotic genes revealed homologues for 93.4% of conserved genes in the assembly (Supplementary Table S10). The tiger genome sequence shows 95.6% similarity to the domestic cat (Supplementary Table S11) from which it diverged approximately 10.8 million years ago (MYA); human and gorilla have 94.8% similarity and diverged around 8.8 MYA (from TimeTree). This high similarity allowed us to improve the assembly of the tiger genome by using the recently completed high coverage (12 × coverage) domestic cat genome

It is hard not to trust verifiable genetic sequencing and rigorous studies therein. It's too repeatable. It keeps coming back to the same results of this massive diverging tree of life drawing back to the the Paleoarchean era, 3.8 billion years ago.

Those are just a few.

a reply to: Degradation33

I actually have to call myself out. False argument. I picked the wrong species as an example. And argued Penguins lived alongside dinosaurs by saying they drifted apart when the conti ents did.

Penguin species diverged long after the continent's broke apart, and at a time when Antarctica was warmer, even green in places. Penguins are remarkable swimmers and migrate long distances though.

I should really check these things first. And not turn fossil record into whatever that was.

So remove the first argument and replace it with this:

Now a new genetic study, detailed in this week's issue of the journal Biology Letters, suggests that today's major penguin lineages began diverging from one another about 11 to 16 million years ago, and that their common ancestor first appeared 20 million years ago.

The study also suggests that a prolonged cooling spell in Antarctica may have helped spur penguins to diversify into the 18 species living today.

.

But the argument remains through genomes we can pinpoint the point of divergence from common ancestor.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: neoholographic

You know, the bottom line here is pretty simple. Until he/she/it comes down to say hello and explain facts in person, nothing you say here matters.

You mean Jesus Christ? The answer is right in front of your face, but you deny it due to bias

He turned out to be pretty useless. All politics and no work ethic. Just like religion today.

That's right and He's coming back now with vengeance.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
Does the god of the gaps exist? Surely God is also god of gaps, He is The Almighty Most High.

See atheists believe in a god, the god of the gaps. Even with reasoning everybody finds that there is a god.

Not sure why they call themselves atheïst though, perhaps to confuse imposters.

Why do you persist in this lie that understanding the MES makes one an automatic atheist. It's not true and there are more Christians working in the Earth Sciences than work for Answers in Genesis or other liars who demand literal interpretation of Scripture. Or at least their version of a literal interpretation.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
That's right and He's coming back now with vengeance.

Can you explain that comment with a little more detail?

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
Does the god of the gaps exist? Surely God is also god of gaps, He is The Almighty Most High.

See atheists believe in a god, the god of the gaps. Even with reasoning everybody finds that there is a god.

Not sure why they call themselves atheïst though, perhaps to confuse imposters.

Why do you persist in this lie that understanding the MES makes one an automatic atheist. It's not true and there are more Christians working in the Earth Sciences than work for Answers in Genesis or other liars who demand literal interpretation of Scripture. Or at least their version of a literal interpretation.

Because pairing YEC with evolution is like the whole group taking credit for a class project that was almost entirely the work of one student who is actually worth the passing grade.