Transparency On The Future of ATS

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: DISRAELI

The inrush of politics actually filled the gap which arose when all the "2012" excitement collapsed into disappointment (reflected in a visible reduction in new posts and threads).

I actually returned here; I had been a member years ago when it was less politically charged, during the Trayvon Martin mess. I don’t recall it being that bad then.

But you make a good point about 2012!

Lost a lot of Maya traffic in the Ancient Civilizations section when that happened.

Harte

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
So to have survived, we should have censored opinions you don't like. Got it.

I can't speak for numberjuggler, but as a long time member, who also lurked for quite awhile prior to joining, and now only peruses ATS every few months or so.... the primary issue is not about censoring or not-censoring opinions. The problem is that ATS lost its way, and not only surrendered to, but actually rewarded the partisan hacks who took it over.

I understand that it was felt that the Mud Pit was a "necessary evil" to tidy up the board in the hopes of containing political baiting and mud-slinging. Maybe it was necessary, but (in my opinion) rewarding such behavior was the critical error.

It seems like it took no time at all for the most recognized posters here (once amazing researchers and contributors) to be overtaken by partisan hacks from both sides. When people can rack up 50-200+ stars per post just by jumping into the pit and tossing out a first-page one-liner like "Trump supporters are racist!", or "Libtards ruin everything!" you've not only created a "game", but also created an environment where the worst behavior gets you the highest score. For partisan hacks and political spinsters this... was... perfect.

When ATS became a platform that rewarded/allowed-rewarding UN-civil discussion... the foundations here cracked and crumbled. The Mud Pit should never have allowed stars/flags, and all stars and flags earned in the Pit should be reset. If you want to save ATS, then steer the ship back towards the civilized discussion of alternative topics, and the only way to do that now is to stop incentivizing/rewarding uncivilized Mud Pit behavior.

Remove "the game's" scoring system, and make the Pit like BB&Q with no stars. Let them have their space to slug it out, but stop providing a system for people be rewarded for uncivil discussion there.

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
So to have survived, we should have censored opinions you don't like. Got it.

The Mud Pit should never have allowed stars/flags, and all stars and flags earned in the Pit should be reset. If you want to save ATS, then steer the ship back towards the civilized discussion of alternative topics, and the only way to do that now is to stop incentivizing/rewarding uncivilized Mud Pit behavior.

Lets compare:

Total topics
Mud pid: 9,907
Aliens / UFOs: 1,385,515
General chit chat: 42,036
Paranormal: 14,590
Philosophy / metaphysics: 15,075
Science / technology: 20,695
Space exploration: 14,149

Average flag count last 64 threads (first page)
Mud pit: 27.08
Aliens / UFOs: 35.5
Paranormal: 39.34
General Chit Chat: 16.78

I would say the mud pit isn't close to as big a contributor to the overall website as even GENERAL CHIT CHAT is.

a reply to: FauxMulder

Shhh...don’t tell haters the truth. It makes them hate even more to distract from being wrong.

a reply to: FauxMulder

What you fail to mention is what people see every day, which is political drivel on the landing page.

The other thing you fail to mention is that the figure you show are a total count of the popular threads on ATS, and you make no account for when they were made.

You also fail to mention the lack of civility, tone and standards in the mud pit threads.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said but ATS wasn't built on political BS it was built on alternative topics. For some reason that I can;t fathom (save for their own political posturing) people forget that.

originally posted by: neformore
a reply to: FauxMulder

What you fail to mention is what people see every day, which is political drivel on the landing page.

The other thing you fail to mention is that the figure you show are a total count of the popular threads on ATS, and you make no account for when they were made.

You also fail to mention the lack of civility, tone and standards in the mud pit threads.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said but ATS wasn't built on political BS it was built on alternative topics. For some reason that I can;t fathom (save for their own political posturing) people forget that.

Exactly

That said, and in all fairness, FauxMulder registered 9/28/16; so she/he likely never experienced what ATS was like early on before things started going so far downhill.

Naturally there were other factors that came along (like Twitter-fare becoming the "new internet standard" for online posting), but ATS providing a system for people to be rewarded for uncivil discussion was where ATS really lost its way.

originally posted by: neformore
a reply to: FauxMulder

What you fail to mention is what people see every day, which is political drivel on the landing page.

The very first thing on the home page today is aliens. (yes, followed by mud pit threads). I dont even look at the home page anyway. I go strait to MyATS and then check the new threads.

The other thing you fail to mention is that the figure you show are a total count of the popular threads on ATS, and you make no account for when they were made.

64 most recent contributed to threads.

You also fail to mention the lack of civility, tone and standards in the mud pit threads.

Does that need to be mentioned? If you want civility, stay out of the mud pit.

it was built on alternative topics. For some reason that I can;t fathom (save for their own political posturing) people forget that.

Yes, it was. That's why the mud pit has under 10K TOTAL topics. It's a very small part of the site. Maybe its just been at the forefront in recent times because of everything that is going on.

I couldn't care less whether the mud pit stays or goes. I just don't buy it as the reason ATS is going down.

originally posted by: FauxMulder
I couldn't care less whether the mud pit stays or goes. I just don't buy it as the reason ATS is going down.

You misunderstood.

I'm not saying the Mud Pit itself is the reason ATS is going down, and the Pit may very well be a necessary evil.

The rewarding of uncivilized discussion, and the "game" created by having a star/flag system in the Mud Pit are where things took a horrible turn and ATS lost its way.

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: FauxMulder
I couldn't care less whether the mud pit stays or goes. I just don't buy it as the reason ATS is going down.

You misunderstood.

The rewarding of uncivilized discussion, and the "game" created by having a star/flag system in the Mud Pit are where things took a horrible turn.

I got it and I still don't think its correct. The mud pit threads may get a decent average amount of flags but only the Alien, paranormal, conspiracy, etc. forums have multiple threads in the 200 -300 flag range. It's still the main reason why most people are here. They may dabble in the politics but that's not why they are here. My biggest thread was not a mud pit thread or even political at all.

a reply to: FauxMulder

Again, I understand that you only registered 9/28/16, so you may lack experience with ATS being a former haven for civilized alternative discussion back in its glory days.

I don't think you understand how much of a massive shift and catalyst it was for ATS to become a place where uncivilized discussion became something that is actually rewarded.

a reply to: redmage

curiosity kill the cat.

Just can't keep from clicking !! 😎

a reply to: redmage

Registered date is not the same as visiting / reading ATS date. I understand people lament how discourse currently is, especially in the mud pit. I just don't buy that it's the reason for the ATS demise. The rewards are still greater for making a GOOD thread in one of the other forums where discourse does not get so ugly.

a reply to: FauxMulder

No, you are kinda missing' Red's & Nef's points. Let's dress this as a town instead.

Think of the Pit as a dilapidated dive bar on the border of the deliberately cruddy end of town between downtown's commerce & the fringe neighborhood's trailer park garbage.

It didn't used to be in the neighborhood where the meat of the site is (paranormal, crypo, history, etc) but it sprung up bit by bit there anyway -- it was decided a bar would be dandy. And the barkeep kept feeding booze (encouragement) to the drunkards holed up in there, and made it known "Don't bother coming here if you don't like it" just like any other dive.

Which would have been fine if they'd gone the whole way and not stopped short at just advice for the halfway point there -- they can't keep their patrons from harassing people in different adjacent businesses.

This is where the distinction is, the barkeep didn't bother to beat any neighborly respect come hell or high water into the new resident drunks' heads. Going into, let say the Philosophy & Metaphysics store (forum) and dragging the Belligerent Attitude with them is the opposite of the advice the barkeep gave -- people are avoiding the dump bar, but the dump bar's patrons are three sheets to the wind (belligerent, disrespectful, aggressive) through other topics (stores)

And you can't figure out why other places' patrons are annoyed? Fragile Earth isn't somewhere to belly up in politically, "Go back to YOUR hole" should have been heavily instilled in the patron base before drunkenly milling about other places was ever considered, i.e before the proverbial Pit doors even opened, as a basic matter of course.

IMO, this hasn't helped the site out at all. There's no respect between the Pit & other topics to keep them separated, to keep one from sullying the other, and complaints are only met with snark and ridicule. That's burying the one's head in the sand to claim it's a problem on the part of the rest of the businesses (topics) and not the source (the bar & it's patrons)

a reply to: xuenchen

Yeah, I was doing my roughly "2 month hopeful check-in" only to discover that things have finally gotten so bad that ATS may finally be shutting down.

It would be nice to see the ship steered back on course, but it sounds like it may be too late to save her.

a reply to: Nyiah

I get the point totally. Yea, politics do bleed into other forums and it really shouldn't. Most of the time those post get removed. The mods do a pretty good job around here being as out numbered as they are.

I'm not arguing that things have not become more divisive. That's not just on ATS. We are a microcosm of the larger world.We are a reflection of whats going on.

ATS is still better than anywhere else I can find on the internet. Again, I just don't buy politics, uncivilized discussion, whatever we want to call it as the reason for ATS's apparent demise.

originally posted by: FauxMulder
a reply to: Nyiah

I get the point totally. Yea, politics do bleed into other forums and it really shouldn't. Most of the time those post get removed. The mods do a pretty good job around here being as out numbered as they are.

I'm not arguing that things have not become more divisive. That's not just on ATS. We are a microcosm of the larger world.We are a reflection of whats going on.

ATS is still better than anywhere else I can find on the internet. Again, I just don't buy politics, uncivilized discussion, whatever we want to call it as the reason for ATS's apparent demise.

For the most part, I do agree, but just not in the mod department (I think the approach should have been less easy-breezy and more "taking it to another topic zone = locked out the Pit for a week for each f#-up") Problem bars IRL are usually dealt with (with the goal of improvement) in two ways -- either a bag of bricks courtesy of someone higher up than them comes down on it with the pressure & know-how to shape up or it closes, or they get the idea and clean themselves up before the bag of bricks route is needed.

And again, I ALSO agree it's not the sole reason for the downfall of the site, but it is by no means not involved in it. I would say by majority headache, it had more on the table toward that than than people realize. If it were a pizza, it's that big wonky slice. It's not the majority of the pie still, but it's a pretty freakin' big slice by itself.

originally posted by: FauxMulder
I just don't buy that it's the reason for the ATS demise. The rewards are still greater for making a GOOD thread in one of the other forums where discourse does not get so ugly.

Shifting from a site that formerly discouraged uncivilized discussion to a site that provided a system and place that rewards such behavior fostered a different crowd on ATS, and the atmosphere that the new crowd brought with it bled across the rest of the forums outside of the Mud Pit.

It's my opinion that it's more than just a correlation between the above, and ATS's decline.

All I know is that if people didn’t like Mudpit threads they wouldn’t keep making them and wouldn’t keep reading them.

When was the last time people wrote a Mayan Calendar thread? Been awhile because they fell out of favor when the date came and went. Same with the BP Deepwater Disaster (although there is still oil in the water and is a carcinogen). Yellowstone Caldera still a top topic?

originally posted by: Ahabstar
All I know is that if people didn’t like Mudpit threads they wouldn’t keep making them and wouldn’t keep reading them.

With overall ATS traffic taking such a long-term nosedive I think the "people like it" argument kinda falls flat.

Sure, there's a few who love to play the game that ATS created by having a star/scoring system in a forum dedicated to mud-slinging and uncivil partisan banter, but why are the overall numbers declining if, as you claim, people "like" such an uncivil atmosphere so much?

ATS lost its way.

Going from "Deny Ignorance", to a place that provides a system which rewards willful partisan ignorance and uncivil discourse doesn't appear to have helped the site.

Again, it's my opinion that it's more than just a correlation between the above, and ATS's statistical decline.

originally posted by: FauxMulder
a reply to: [post=25273923]Nyiah[/post

ATS is still better than anywhere else I can find on the internet. Again, I just don't buy politics, uncivilized discussion, whatever we want to call it as the reason for ATS's apparent demise.

Maybe you should re-read SO's post.

Google de-platformed the ad funding, by changing their algorithm.

Do you think they did that because of UFO and ghost threads, or because of the more un-savoury far out political content that doesn't fit their branding model?

Here's a clue - its the latter.