has any one seen..Demon's?

Originally posted by Jakko
Where was that?

Go back and re-read where I quoted your own words.

If one believes in an omnipotent, and omniscient God, then it could be argued and has been, that nothing could act outside it's will. Seems to make sense.

My you sure are quick to be irrked. I said I was glad you had faith, what more do you want!?? (conversion? Sorry)I remember entering the conversation when it turned to substance abuse and succeptibility to "dark"entities". Being familiar with a bit of ethnobotany myself, and African Shamanistic pratices that pre-date civilization as we know it, I found my comments to be of some relevance, in that reguards.

I quoted your own words..If you can not read them then I know not what to tell you. You said it sure enough, go back to my post and you can re-read it.

No you just didn't really get it, that's something else.

I have noticed this about you, whenever you are caught in your own words , automatically..."No, you did'nt get it"

Oh not that discussion again...
Religion X had a sacrifice too, religion Y had a virgin birth too, so christianity must have stolen it!
Do you have any real links? I know I do.

Oh, so you can and DO apply that logic to all the worlds religions except your own?All the worlds religions have been tainted by paganism EXCEPT christianity? Got it.Please see...
dictionary.reference.com...

It would appear that you are not familiar with the terms that you are throwing around.

Oh so the Circle for ancient Iranian Studies from the University of London are not good enough links for you? Well I wonder what would pass your "stringent" test of what a "real link is....Wait let me guess....One that agrees with you?

Jakko, I am glad you are a christian, Just get over the fact that you are probably not going to convert anyone online, least of all me. I am glad you have your "truths", and I am glad that you are comfortable with them. I am glad they fit your life, I truly am.

See was that soo hard? Why is that soo hard to do for you christians?





[edit on 6-5-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

the world is made up of balance always keep that in mind where you have good you must also have evil and vis versa

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Go back and re-read where I quoted your own words.I quoted your own words..If you can not read them then I know not what to tell you. You said it sure enough, go back to my post and you can re-read it.

I did and I never said anything like that, you misunderstood my posts, and confused the word "a" with "as".
I said it was the devils goal to be on the same level as God, something that's impossible because God created the devil.
This jealous attitude of the devil is what made the devil turn against God.

If one believes in an omnipotent, and omniscient God, then it could be argued and has been, that nothing could act outside it's will. Seems to make sense.

Once again, humans were made with a freedom of choice. This freedom of choice means a lot to God and creation in general, it is the source of all good and bad things in the world. God is intelligent enough to foresee what our choices will be, but that doesn't mean our choices are not real, and that we can go against God, just like satan did.

My you sure are quick to be irrked. I said I was glad you had faith, what more do you want!?? (conversion? Sorry)I remember entering the conversation when it turned to substance abuse and succeptibility to "dark"entities". Being familiar with a bit of ethnobotany myself, and African Shamanistic pratices that pre-date civilization as we know it, I found my comments to be of some relevance, in that reguards.

Discussing this with you is both interesting and fun to me, but what does annoy me is when people insist on questioning my religion, when "they don't wish to debate religion" that's just not possible.

I have noticed this about you, whenever you are caught in your own words , automatically..."No, you did'nt get it"

Actually, this time you really didn't get it.
Please scroll back and realize you made a mistake because this whole wordgame you're playing is becoming annoying.

Oh, so you can and DO apply that logic to all the worlds religions except your own?All the worlds religions have been tainted by paganism EXCEPT christianity? Got it.Please see...
dictionary.reference.com...

I am not applying anything to any religion, I just don't buy the simplistic and unintelligent way that some ATSers try to "debunk" christianity by mentioning pagan religions that had similar elements.
The bible and the NT especially can partly be supported by non-biblical evidence, yet some "debunkers" treat it as some fairytale, a story created by someone who knew a lot of pagan religions.
It's just not this simple.

Oh so the Circle for ancient Iranian Studies from the University of London are not good enough links for you? Well I wonder what would pass your "stringent" test of what a "real link is....Wait let me guess....One that agrees with you?

One that makes sense would be a great start actually.
I have no problem with being wrong, not even when my wrong would undermine the core of my being, yet I have not found one good story/theory about why I am wrong about my religion.

Jakko, I am glad you are a christian, Just get over the fact that you are probably not going to convert anyone online, least of all me. I am glad you have your "truths", and I am glad that you are comfortable with them. I am glad they fit your life, I truly am.

See was that soo hard? Why is that soo hard to do for you christians?

Hilarious.
Christians should be glad for other people because other people are happy to be living in a lie?
It doesn't work like this.

I never tried to convert you, I just explained some things about my religion that you do not seem to understand. I honestly stopped trying to convert people over the internet a long long time ago, especially on ATS.

This is another problem, people shooting at my religion and yelling all kinds of nonsense about it, and then when I go in depth about why I think my religion does make sense they tell me not to attempt to convert them.

I am glad we have this conversation though, we came a long way into the subject and you seem like a respectfull and intelligent partner to have this conversation with (except for my quotes that you don't read/understand), unlike a lot of other ATSers.

[edit on 7-5-2005 by Jakko]

Once again, humans were made with a freedom of choice. This freedom of choice means a lot to God and creation in general, it is the source of all good and bad things in the world. God is intelligent enough to foresee what our choices will be, but that doesn't mean our choices are not real, and that we can go against God, just like satan did.

For a better understanding perhaps of what I am trying to say. Familiarize yourself with the story of Oedipus(not in the Freudian sense). The very idea of an omniscient creator, logically negates the illusion of "free will"......or as you christians like to say..." It's all part of gods plan"....

Actually, this time you really didn't get it.

Of course I did'nt

I am not applying anything to any religion, I just don't buy the simplistic and unintelligent way that some ATSers try to "debunk" christianity by mentioning pagan religions that had similar elements.
The bible and the NT especially can partly be supported by non-biblical evidence, yet some "debunkers" treat it as some fairytale, a story created by someone who knew a lot of pagan religions.
It's just not this simple.

Yes you are, and it is partially a good thing. You are somewhat familiar with the history of pagan of arabs and how that evolved into a monotheistic religion. Your only fallacy is your inabillity to do the same with your own religion(I study theology) MOST NT scholars do admit the zoroastrian, and other borrowed aspects of christianity, and they are Christian.

One that makes sense would be a great start actually.
I have no problem with being wrong, not even when my wrong would undermine the core of my being, yet I have not found one good story/theory about why I am wrong about my religion.

I do not feel you are being100% honest here Jakko, as I provided a reputable link, that gives accounts that predate christianity, and clearly outlines certain elements that were borrowed.

Hilarious.
Christians should be glad for other people because other people are happy to be living in a lie?
It doesn't work like this.

Yes it truly is......What I find hilarious is the fact that I think you are living a lie as well, yet YES I CAN AND STILL DO WISH YOU AND YOUR BELIEFS WELL. It's not hard, even if you feel it is, some are able to do it

I never tried to convert you, I just explained some things about my religion that you do not seem to understand. I honestly stopped trying to convert people over the internet a long long time ago, especially on ATS.

I have seeen enough of your post to honestly disagree with this statement. It would appear to me, that you are constantly busy "defending"your faith. And Another thing as previously mentioned I study theology for a living, I really doubt I need the help of an anonymous internet poster, to help me with my understanding of a religion I have studied MY WHOLE LIFE, and get paid to do now!!!!

This is another problem, people shooting at my religion and yelling all kinds of nonsense about it, and then when I go in depth about why I think my religion does make sense they tell me not to attempt to convert them.

I do not ever remember shooting your religion. ALl i remember doing is pointing out the fact that you used a term "paranormal" ; remember? And technically , according to the very definition of the word YES your religion does fit into the paranormal. That is what set you off defending your faith, not me shooting at it. Technically if you look up the word I am correct, etymologically speaking of course. Which I previously stated as well. it was this comparison tho the paranormal that got you started, not any shooting or nonsense.

[edit on 7-5-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

It's true that I defend christianity quite often on ATS, but I am not doing it to witness, I am doing it because I want to attempt to show that christians [d]do try to think about things themselves.

I see you didn't reply to the things I said about you confusing my words, I presume you agree with me and see you've misunderstood what I said?

And frankly I don't really care wether you studied christianity for 25 years, I can only base my opinion on what you say about christianity in this thread, and so far I don't get the idea you know a whole lot about it, other then the basic stuff.

Also I wonder, the christian friends you have that "admit" that christianity borrowed from pagan religions, how christian are they exactly?
I mean how can they rhyme that with what they read in the NT?
What exactly do they take serious?

I'm back!

It is stunning to me, after reading the previous pages of dialogue on the matter of(has anyone seen demons). How much effort, nonbelievers put forth, in dismissing the evidence and and witnesses. When a perfectly sane person, who has been examined by doctors, and leads a healthy, normal life, declares that they have seen, heard, or felt demons. These perfectly healthy people are instantly labeled as mentally disturbed or chemically unbalanced.

The great effort put forth, must be from some deep desire to reject these facts. To quote (Thou does protest too much!). this struggle can only be from a deep, atheistic desire to renounce the evidence of God.

It is strange to me, how one would want to reject the knowledge that a God exists. Because the alternative, is to live in hatred of believers, and denial of the truth of God's existence. To know that there is a God, is important, when that God does indeed exist. Denying this fact can not make one's life better.

To prove my point, if I were to declare myself as a banana worshiper. Who, would really care? I could not imagine that that would be 17 pages of posts, arguing the matter. Now, when someone asked a question,(has anyone seen demons) people pull out their hair. Interesting indeed.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by Balaams donkey]

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
It is stunning to me, after reading the previous pages of dialogue on the matter of(has anyone seen demons). How much effort, nonbelievers put forth, in dismissing the evidence and and witnesses.

Do you know for a fact that everyone who dismisses demons are "nonbelievers"?

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
When a perfectly sane person, who has been examined by doctors, and leads a healthy, normal life, declares that they have seen, heard, or felt demons. These perfectly healthy people are instantly labeled as mentally disturbed or chemically unbalanced.

Perfectly healthy normal people can have psychotic episodes triggered by environmental conditions or half-dream states. This is well documented.

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
The great effort put forth, must be from some deep desire to reject these facts. To quote (Thou does protest too much!). this struggle can only be from a deep, atheistic desire to renounce the evidence of God.

You will probably find that the same skeptics that dismiss demons also dismiss alien abductions etc. Is it because we hate aliens and have a deep a-alien desire to renounce space travel?

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
It is strange to me, how one would want to reject the knowledge that a God exists. Because the alternative, is to live in hatred of believers, and denial of the truth of God's existence.

You certainly seem claim to know a lot about what goes on inside the heads of those you can not sympathize with. Neither you nor I have knowledge of the existence of gods. BTW, I don't hate believers, but I do find the concept of faith repugnant.

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
To prove my point, if I were to declare myself as a banana worshiper. Who, would really care? I could not imagine that that would be 17 pages of posts, arguing the matter. Now, when someone asked a question,(has anyone seen demons) people pull out their hair. Interesting indeed.

The difference is, we know bananas exist. Similarly endless discussions go on about aliens on this site.

I belive my family saw a demon in L.A. We saw a strange looking pale man sitting in all black on a bench, with a top knot for hair, and a very 'expensive' metal, "bomb case." We started talking about him, from our car, and then he looked right at the three of us with an evil grin and all black eyes. He continued to look at us, even as we drove away, and we could see him in the rear view mirror. When he looked at us, all of our hearts 'dropped,' and fear was set in all of us. Maybe not a demon, but still an obviously corrupted person capable of instilling fear.

Contrabass

But obviously chilling none-the-less!

Demons are odd since there isnt really any photographic evidence like ghosts.......not that ide like to see one!

Originally posted by Shadow88
Demons are odd since there isnt really any photographic evidence like ghosts.......not that ide like to see one!

Please tell me you're not claiming there's credible photographics evidence of ghosts.

nooooo i just sed theres more evidence in general for ghosts, and none for demons thats all

Hmm...

Vash can you talk to those creatures ? If yes how do you communicate with them ?

Please ask them this one thing... Their names. And if you get the answer that they don't have names in the world of the mortals, then ask them again, and donot stop till you get a "proper" answer, answers like "Δαίμονες" " Παν", " Φύλακες 'Αγγελοι" arenot "proper" ones.

Demons, eh? The only problem i see so far is that all these people are shoutign over whos' right and whos wrong. Well how about this? Your all right and your all wrong. God exists, do does Satan and whatnot. It called belief and what a powerful thing it is. It can cause wars and bloodshed. it can cause hate and discontent. Seems to me the only thing most religions are good at doing is pointing fingers and screaming blasphemy. Religion isn't supposed to be weapon, its suppose to be a crutch. When you know you might not make the rent payment, you gotta grab that crutch in hopes that you'll find a way. Call it GOD, call it Jesus, call it whatever you want. Its the belief that something is watching out for you. Thats why i don't get people who can believe in Aliens but not a higher power. I mean what created them? Point being, demons could be something completely opposite of what you know. And before you scream heretic, remember one thing.

Free will baby

-Aza

Originally posted by Balaams donkey
I'm back!

It is stunning to me, after reading the previous pages of dialogue on the matter of(has anyone seen demons). How much effort, nonbelievers put forth, in dismissing the evidence and and witnesses. When a perfectly sane person, who has been examined by doctors, and leads a healthy, normal life, declares that they have seen, heard, or felt demons. These perfectly healthy people are instantly labeled as mentally disturbed or chemically unbalanced.

The great effort put forth, must be from some deep desire to reject these facts. To quote (Thou does protest too much!). this struggle can only be from a deep, atheistic desire to renounce the evidence of God.

It is strange to me, how one would want to reject the knowledge that a God exists. Because the alternative, is to live in hatred of believers, and denial of the truth of God's existence. To know that there is a God, is important, when that God does indeed exist. Denying this fact can not make one's life better.

To prove my point, if I were to declare myself as a banana worshiper. Who, would really care? I could not imagine that that would be 17 pages of posts, arguing the matter. Now, when someone asked a question,(has anyone seen demons) people pull out their hair. Interesting indeed.

[edit on 14-7-2005 by Balaams donkey]

thank you so much bal for doing this and yes i want to make it clear

i see demons i talk to them i injoy haveing them around they are there for me i have been to docters i have been to priests of almost ever relagion they can not help me they have tryed so what are all you people going to say now call me a lier a hertic of the chruch or some thing ?
or a satan worshipper like a lot of people do ?

they are here becuase they say they have to be here that is all i know and i have droped it they have always been here so why piss them off?

i dont think i whould want a pissed of demon around me whould you ?

Originally posted by Reinheart
Hmm...

Vash can you talk to those creatures ? If yes how do you communicate with them ?

Please ask them this one thing... Their names. And if you get the answer that they don't have names in the world of the mortals, then ask them again, and donot stop till you get a "proper" answer, answers like "Δαίμονες" " Παν", " Φύλακες 'Αγγελοι" arenot "proper" ones.

i will ask them there names for you reinheart... other then that i will try my best

Originally posted by Azathoth
Demons, eh? The only problem i see so far is that all these people are shoutign over whos' right and whos wrong. Well how about this? Your all right and your all wrong. God exists, do does Satan and whatnot. It called belief and what a powerful thing it is. It can cause wars and bloodshed. it can cause hate and discontent. Seems to me the only thing most religions are good at doing is pointing fingers and screaming blasphemy. Religion isn't supposed to be weapon, its suppose to be a crutch. When you know you might not make the rent payment, you gotta grab that crutch in hopes that you'll find a way. Call it GOD, call it Jesus, call it whatever you want. Its the belief that something is watching out for you. Thats why i don't get people who can believe in Aliens but not a higher power. I mean what created them? Point being, demons could be something completely opposite of what you know. And before you scream heretic, remember one thing.

Free will baby

-Aza

i agree aza you have free will to think what you will and i shant not bash you for it it does seem very off that people can belive in aliens and differnt things but still nto belive in a higher power so commanly called god but to each his/her own right?

Good to hear from you again.

Originally posted by Vash
thank you so much bal for doing this and yes i want to make it clear

i see demons i talk to them i injoy haveing them around they are there for me i have been to docters i have been to priests of almost ever relagion they can not help me they have tryed so what are all you people going to say now call me a lier

I believe you're telling the truth.

Originally posted by Vash
a hertic of the chruch or some thing ?

People still use that word? No, don't think you're one of those either

Originally posted by Vash
or a satan worshipper like a lot of people do ?

Satan worshipping is a choice an individual has to make, giving your will to him...or so he told me.

Originally posted by Vash
they are here becuase they say they have to be here that is all i know and i have droped it they have always been here so why piss them off?

I don't think antagonism would work. In fact, I'd submit that it would just make conditions worse. My advice is as Balaam's Donkey says, look to the only One who could release you from them.

Originally posted by Vash
i dont think i whould want a pissed of demon around me whould you ?

Not at all, but they're around. It doesn't matter once saved though, they have no effect.

May love, faith and hope be with you always,
God bless.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 15-8-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Good to hear from you again.

Originally posted by Vash
thank you so much bal for doing this and yes i want to make it clear

i see demons i talk to them i injoy haveing them around they are there for me i have been to docters i have been to priests of almost ever relagion they can not help me they have tryed so what are all you people going to say now call me a lier

I believe you're telling the truth.

Originally posted by Vash
a hertic of the chruch or some thing ?

People still use that word? No, don't think you're one of those either

Originally posted by Vash
or a satan worshipper like a lot of people do ?

Satan worshipping is a choice an individual has to make, giving your will to him...or so he told me.

Originally posted by Vash
they are here becuase they say they have to be here that is all i know and i have droped it they have always been here so why piss them off?

I don't think antagonism would work. In fact, I'd submit that it would just make conditions worse. My advice is as Balaam's Donkey says, look to the only One who could release you from them.

Originally posted by Vash
i dont think i whould want a pissed of demon around me whould you ?

Not at all, but they're around. It doesn't matter once saved though, they have no effect.

May love, faith and hope be with you always,
God bless.

[edit on 15-8-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 15-8-2005 by saint4God]

ok jsut wanted to add a quick note here it may seem odd as all heck but i have atended church and belifed once i was saved i belived with all my heart and not a demon one left * shurgs* i have no idea they have been here always i thought it was me not wanting to be saved so i went to a tent revival and got saved i woke up on the floor crying but the demons where still there the pastor said i was saved but hade a odd look on his face as if he chould see the to or see it in me *shurgs* any ideas saint?

Originally posted by Vash
ok jsut wanted to add a quick note here it may seem odd as all heck but i have atended church and belifed once i was saved i belived with all my heart and not a demon one left * shurgs* i have no idea they have been here always i thought it was me not wanting to be saved so i went to a tent revival and got saved i woke up on the floor crying but the demons where still there the pastor said i was saved but hade a odd look on his face as if he chould see the to or see it in me *shurgs* any ideas saint?

The difference I believe, is that they no longer have an effect, not that they'll necessarily go away. However, I believe it can be done and would like to help. I'd like to ask some detailed questions so I'll send U2U if that's alrigtht. One moment please...

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Vash
ok jsut wanted to add a quick note here it may seem odd as all heck but i have atended church and belifed once i was saved i belived with all my heart and not a demon one left * shurgs* i have no idea they have been here always i thought it was me not wanting to be saved so i went to a tent revival and got saved i woke up on the floor crying but the demons where still there the pastor said i was saved but hade a odd look on his face as if he chould see the to or see it in me *shurgs* any ideas saint?

The difference I believe, is that they no longer have an effect, not that they'll necessarily go away. However, I believe it can be done and would like to help. I'd like to ask some detailed questions so I'll send U2U if that's alrigtht. One moment please...

ok * waits for u2u* ^^