Interracial homicide and the Ahmaud Arbery shooting

The Ahmaud Arbery shooting has folks really worked up. Left-wingers, right-wingers, blacks and whites, Americans and non-Americans, this case illustrates how people see racial issues differently, for whatever reasons.

Rather than adding to the unwieldy number of comments on the Arbery shooting thread, and to prevent subject drift, I started this one re: interracial homicide.

Obviously, interracial homicide and racism are important elements of the ATS Arbery thread. They seem to be driving the heated discussion, so I thought I’d start this thread on the political issues forum. Hopefully, we can discuss interracial homicide with as much fact, logic and reason as possible without getting too emotional, though I’m all too likely to violate this noble aspiration myself. Perhaps we can put the issue in better perspective. I hope to learn from the numerous ATS members who are smarter than I am, and I’m not trying to be falsely modest.

I’ll begin with this link to the 2018 FBI Uniform Crime Report Table 6.

ucr.fbi.gov...

It helps put interracial homicide in perspective by showing the number of homicide arrests by race of the offenders and the race of their victims. It also shows stats for “Hispanics or Latinos,” who aren’t a race but an ethnicity, and are lumped in with the white totals.

For those who believe blacks are hunted down and murdered left and right by white racists, know that 514 blacks were arrested for murdering whites in 2018, as opposed to 234 whites arrested for murdering blacks that year.

Oops! I forgot that “Hispanic or Latino” homicide arrests are lumped in with white arrests for homicide. So we subtract the 83 murders of blacks by Hispanics from 234 and get 151 whites arrested for murdering blacks in 2018. That means blacks were arrested for murdering 3.4 times as many whites as vice versa.

Blacks were also arrested for murdering 2,600 of their fellow blacks.

Whites were arrested for murdering 2,677 of their fellow whites in 2018. Gosh darn it! I did it again. Subtract the 803 Hispanic arrests for murdering whites and we get the true number of 1,874 white-on-white homicide arrests in 2018. That’s 72 percent as many as black-on-black homicide arrests

Note: Non-Hispanic whites comprise 60 percent of the population and blacks comprise 13 percent.

Nothing but mere facts, which have no place in discussion when the attempt is to sway opinion and paint narratives.

It's a waste of time, sorry to say. Because you have two groups, one has looked at the facts and the other watches the news.

I'm not commenting on this specific situation(shooting) one way or the other, but the narrative that gets dragged out everytime.

originally posted by: ZapBrannigan3030
Nothing but mere facts, which have no place in discussion when the attempt is to sway opinion and paint narratives.

It's a waste of time, sorry to say. Because you have two groups, one has looked at the facts and the other watches the news.

I'm not commenting on this specific situation(shooting) one way or the other, but the narrative that gets dragged out everytime.

You’re probably right. My threads don’t excite much interest. But I get the distinct impression many on the Left think blacks are victimized by whites to a much greater extent than vice versa. Perhaps these facts from a reputable source will destroy that misconception and give them a different perspective. OK, I don’t even believe that myself, but maybe I’ll be surprised. ;-)

a reply to: ZapBrannigan3030

Black people are not dummies. They know way more black people kill black people than whites. Everyone does but they are going to vote how they vote no matter what due to the historic slavery issue. It's really a reverse form of the KKK. A real perpetual pity party that will never end. Look at them. They still refuse to honor this guy had a passion for breaking the law and is on video breaking an entry. Could someone possibly have a passion for justice? Maybe just accept all three are idiots and call it a day for once.

a reply to: Scapegrace

Okay. Now explain why the hell this matters please. What's your point? Because beyond beating some dead horse for racial superiority, I don't see any point.

Which is the crime: The murder? Or the race of the murderer? Or is it really about the sex of the murderer???

Because as you think about your answer, let's throw another fact into the mixture: The vast majority of ALL MURDERS are committed by MEN. The vast majority of women killed are killed by men. So from where I'm sitting, whatever point you're trying to make about race, it applies exponentially to MEN.

So please enlighten me. If you can. I'd very much like to know what I should be thinking about MEN right now...

Oh! And do note:

Note: Non-Hispanic whites comprise 60 percent of the population and blacks comprise 13 percent.

No. Let me fix that for you: The population comprises 60 percent Non-Hispanic Whites and 13 percent Blacks. Or, Non-Hispanic Whites compose 60 percent of the population and Blacks compose 13 percent.

The whole comprises the parts... the parts compose the whole.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Scapegrace

Okay. Now explain why the hell this matters please. What's your point? Because beyond beating some dead horse for racial superiority, I don't see any point.

Which is the crime: The murder? Or the race of the murderer? Or is it really about the sex of the murderer???

Because as you think about your answer, let's throw another fact into the mixture: The vast majority of ALL MURDERS are committed by MEN. The vast majority of women killed are killed by men. So from where I'm sitting, whatever point you're trying to make about race, it applies exponentially to MEN.

So please enlighten me. If you can. I'd very much like to know what I should be thinking about MEN right now...

Oh! And do note:

Note: Non-Hispanic whites comprise 60 percent of the population and blacks comprise 13 percent.

No. Let me fix that for you: The population comprises 60 percent Non-Hispanic Whites and 13 percent Blacks. Or, Non-Hispanic Whites compose 60 percent of the population and Blacks compose 13 percent.

The whole comprises the parts... the parts compose the whole.

My point is the news media, blacks and the Left periodically get enraged about a white-on-black killing, usually involving police. I never see them get incensed about black-on-white homicides, which arrest stats show are 3.4 times more frequent. Of course, that’s just for homicides where arrests were made.

A little more than 36 percent of homicides in 2018 were unsolved (compare tables 8 and 43 of the UCR.

ucr.fbi.gov...

ucr.fbi.gov...

I firmly believe we all need to know the truth in order to solve any problem. If we as a nation, as a society, can’t even discuss issues such as black-on-white homicide and violence in general, we are never going to alleviate the problem.

And there’s the far greater problem of black-on-black violence. Why is it considered so much worse if a white person kills a black person? The stats show that 17 times more blacks are killed by other blacks than by whites.

I, too, would like to see a thread about male violence, but that would distract from this one. I’m not trying to duck the issue and I agree it’s important. If you’d care to start one I’ll participate and try my best to be honest and realistic. Or I could start one after this thread dies out, which won’t be long if my other threads are any indicator. I’ve given the issue some thought and feel it needs to be discussed. There’s absolutely no doubt — it would be absurd to deny it — that men are far more prone to violence than women.

Thanks for the grammar tip; I knew I was using “comprise” incorrectly. Just a bad habit.

originally posted by: Scapegrace

My point is the news media, blacks and the Left periodically get enraged about a white-on-black killing, usually involving police. I never see them get incensed about black-on-white homicides, which arrest stats show are 3.4 times more frequent. Of course, that’s just for homicides where arrests were made.

All true enough... but not fair enough. It's all part of the divide-and-conquer game, with no victory in sight... for any of us.

A few years back when I really dug into the issue, what I found is that the overwhelming majority of murders -- and violence in general -- is gang-related, both perp and victim. In terms of police brutality, it is usually a few bad apples in a few bad departments where the rot starts at the top. And the most outrageous are the ones that get the media spotlight. But none of it is representative of the whole.

While most murderers are men, most men are not murders. Likewise for the races. While most murderers may be Black men, most Black men are not murders. And so on and so forth.

I firmly believe we all need to know the truth in order to solve any problem. If we as a nation, as a society, can’t even discuss issues such as black-on-white homicide and violence in general, we are never going to alleviate the problem.

I don't disagree. But race does not make anyone a murderer any more than sex makes one a murderer. So what could be causing the violence? No one wants to look at that.

For example, one primary factor that few people want to address is lead-poisoning -- and its adverse affects -- being rife in inner cities (the same inner cities that Black people were "red-lined" and "sundowned" and "Jim Crowed" into by law, in other words, systemic and institutionalized racism). Lead poisoning can come from water, soil, and other environmental factors. Lead poisoning is disproportionately higher in children living in inner cities, lead poisoning is known to increase violent tendencies, lead poisoning is also known to impair judgment and cognitive function.

It's all well and good to say they've made their own choices... but if they are incapable of making better choices because they are incapable of reason and critical thinking, then the cycle will continue.

And there’s the far greater problem of black-on-black violence. Why is it considered so much worse if a white person kills a black person? The stats show that 17 times more blacks are killed by other blacks than by whites.

It's only considered worse by those who want to play silly games. Murder is murder. It's not bad because the murderer is White, Black or Purple Polka Dot... It's bad no matter who does it. And that's why it makes me so frustrated and angry when these numbers are broken down by race. If race is a factor, it is because of outside influences... not because any one race is inherently prone to violence.

I, too, would like to see a thread about male violence, but that would distract from this one. I’m not trying to duck the issue and I agree it’s important. If you’d care to start one I’ll participate and try my best to be honest and realistic. Or I could start one after this thread dies out, which won’t be long if my other threads are any indicator. I’ve given the issue some thought and feel it needs to be discussed. There’s absolutely no doubt — it would be absurd to deny it — that men are far more prone to violence than women.

Much respect for this. If I were to write such a thread though, it would be in the context of men who identify as women, but retain the same patterns of male violence, and that they have no place in women's private spaces. Especially because those men also retain their brute strength and the average woman has no chance against an assault. Beyond basic safeguards and protections for this constant threat against women, there is no need or reason to point out the obvious: Some men are violent brutes, even murderers, but not ALL men -- and not even MOST men.

Thanks for the grammar tip; I knew I was using “comprise” incorrectly. Just a bad habit.

Thanks for taking it constructively! It's a pet peeve of mine, and when strict definitions and fine lines matter, I am compelled to correct it.

I was just visiting Newsweek’s website and there are no less than seven articles about the Ahmaud Arbery shooting. Has there ever been that kind of outrage and coverage about a black-on-white killing? I mean within the last 50 years?

Maybe the Central Park jogger case comes closest, although it was gang rape instead of murder, and some of the perpetrators were Latinos. I don’t know if any headlines stated most of the suspects were black and the victim was white, but I doubt it. Yes, the races of those involved became clear once you started following the story, but it was never the most contentious issue, except when the story became how the accused were supposedly innocent. I don’t recall angry whites gathering to protest the violence inflicted on a white woman.

a reply to: Scapegrace

see white people aren't arrested for Murder as often.
I'm hoping that the charge for these white dudes will be moved to ever single mugger - after all someone pointed a gun at him - he didn't comply with their demands - had a go and died. If he hadn't fought back he'd be in court suing their arses.

Remember the court of retribution is greatly in favour of the non-white because of the outrage riot that will happen if they don't get their way. After all how else do we get free stuff.

originally posted by: Scapegrace
The Ahmaud Arbery shooting has folks really worked up. Left-wingers, right-wingers, blacks and whites, Americans and non-Americans, this case illustrates how people see racial issues differently, for whatever reasons.

Rather than adding to the unwieldy number of comments on the Arbery shooting thread, and to prevent subject drift, I started this one re: interracial homicide.

Obviously, interracial homicide and racism are important elements of the ATS Arbery thread. They seem to be driving the heated discussion, so I thought I’d start this thread on the political issues forum. Hopefully, we can discuss interracial homicide with as much fact, logic and reason as possible without getting too emotional, though I’m all too likely to violate this noble aspiration myself. Perhaps we can put the issue in better perspective. I hope to learn from the numerous ATS members who are smarter than I am, and I’m not trying to be falsely modest.

I’ll begin with this link to the 2018 FBI Uniform Crime Report Table 6.

ucr.fbi.gov...

It helps put interracial homicide in perspective by showing the number of homicide arrests by race of the offenders and the race of their victims. It also shows stats for “Hispanics or Latinos,” who aren’t a race but an ethnicity, and are lumped in with the white totals.

For those who believe blacks are hunted down and murdered left and right by white racists, know that 514 blacks were arrested for murdering whites in 2018, as opposed to 234 whites arrested for murdering blacks that year.

Oops! I forgot that “Hispanic or Latino” homicide arrests are lumped in with white arrests for homicide. So we subtract the 83 murders of blacks by Hispanics from 234 and get 151 whites arrested for murdering blacks in 2018. That means blacks were arrested for murdering 3.4 times as many whites as vice versa.

Blacks were also arrested for murdering 2,600 of their fellow blacks.

Whites were arrested for murdering 2,677 of their fellow whites in 2018. Gosh darn it! I did it again. Subtract the 803 Hispanic arrests for murdering whites and we get the true number of 1,874 white-on-white homicide arrests in 2018. That’s 72 percent as many as black-on-black homicide arrests

Note: Non-Hispanic whites comprise 60 percent of the population and blacks comprise 13 percent.

All things considered; if we're talking about inequality right... then these numbers would be measurements of that?

*If* more whites are not arrested for homicide because of racist investigators, wouldn't that lower the metric?

To put it another way; these metrics are just arrests, but as we saw with the Arbery case, the McMichael's weren't even arrested initially. In fact, they were only arrested because their Lawyer released the video showing that it was in fact murder. I argue that, if that video had never come out; there wouldn't have been any arrests made -- that still doesn't change the fact that they murdered Arbery in cold blood. If we for arguments sake, assumed this to be true, then Arbery's murder wouldn't have arrests tied to it, which would not increase the White on Black Homicide Arrest numbers, but in reality; wouldn't change the fact that a white on black homicide occurred.

I'm not saying I agree/Disagree, I'm just saying if we're going to use Arrests as a metric, that's probably disingenuous if racism is in fact a contributing factor to who gets arrested, no?

Despite the fact that I don't think racism is inherently as big a problem as some crowds would have you believe; I do find it hard to believe that if the races were swapped, we'd have the same outcome in this particular case. Say Arbery were white, and the McMichael's and Roddy were Black -- I do find it hard to believe that THREE men wouldn't have been arrested on the spot. Yet, only two were, and only after evidence was made public.

Essentially, I'm saying using the Arrest metrics, we're manipulating facts to support a conclusion. What we should be looking at are shooting metrics, not arrest metrics tied to the shooting cases. We're looking at a subset of the data AFTER potential racist ideology changed the result of that data.

This would be a logical fallacy, is all I'm saying.

In order to be conclusive, we'd have to rule out racial bias from the investigation; so we'd have more of an Idea if racism was as big a contributing factor if we had the source data of how many whites shot blacks, and how many blacks shot whites, and then compared that against the arrest records.

However; that would produce a different logical fallacy. Each case is unique, and the actions that transpired in each different. So just because their could be disproportionate metrics there, doesn't mean that of those cases X number of them were unjust and racist.

This is one of those things that's incredibly hard to reach acceptable levels of accuracy.

It'll always be inconclusive logically. It's kind of like the Covid-19 reporting; right? If we don't test every person on the planet, then we have no idea how many people actually had it, thus, the mortality rate cannot be calculated with any realistic degrees of accuracy.

It's drawing conclusions from incomplete data tables. I learned this in first grade with context clues in Language Arts. How are we as adults too stupid to realize this?

a reply to: Boadicea

You bring up a great point. The gender of all these people is lost (ignored?) in the media and public discourse.

I wish I was as articulate on the subject as the man in this video:
www.youtube.com...

When a white police officer shoots a black young man, the only thing people hear is white/black. End of discussion. Why not the young man part? As you point out it is mostly men. Why? And why does not one really give a flip in the national discussion?

Sorry OP. Not trying to derail the thread. I see where you are going and the data supports that to my eyes. It also supports my point which few even acknowledge. Just trying to find out why.

a reply to: Scapegrace


Some interesting things about Murder:

African-American prisoners who are convicted of murder are about 50% more likely
to be innocent than other convicted murderers. Part of that disparity is tied to the race of the
victim. African Americans imprisoned for murder are more likely to be innocent if they were
convicted of killing white victims. Only about 15% of murders by African Americans have
white victims, but 31% of innocent African-American murder exonerees were convicted of
killing white people.

This is interesting, don't you think OP? Why would blacks be 50% more likely to be innocent when imprisoned for killing whites?

The convictions that led to murder exonerations with black defendants were 22% more
likely to include misconduct by police officers than those with white defendants. In addition,
on average black murder exonerees spent three years longer in prison before release than
white murder exonerees, and those sentenced to death spent four years longer.

Why would there be a 22% increase in misconduct by police when the defendant is non white?

Most wrongful convictions are never discovered. We have no direct measure of the
number of all convictions of innocent murder defendants, but our best estimate suggests that
they outnumber those we know about many times over. Judging from exonerations, half of
those innocent murder defendants are African Americans.

It makes sense right? Black people get arrested more. A lot more actually.


Now drugs:

The best national evidence on drug use shows that African Americans and whites use
illegal drugs at about the same rate. Nonetheless, African Americans are about five times as
likely to go to prison for drug possession as whites—and judging from exonerations,
innocent black people are about 12 times more likely to be convicted of drug crimes than
innocent white people.

I dont know about anyone else, but I see a trend here.

In general, very few ordinary, low-level drug convictions result in exoneration,
regardless of innocence, because the stakes are too low. In Harris County, Texas, however,
there have been 133 exonerations in ordinary drug possession cases in the last few years.
These are cases in which defendants pled guilty, and were exonerated after routine lab tests
showed they were not carrying illegal drugs. Sixty-two percent of the Harris County drugcrime guilty plea exonerees were African American in a county with 20% black residents.

This percentage is likely so high due to an higher arrest rate for people that happen to exist while black.

The main reason for this racial disproportion in convictions of innocent drug
defendants is that police enforce drug laws more vigorously against African Americans than
against members of the white majority, despite strong evidence that both groups use drugs at equivalent rates. African Americans are more frequently stopped, searched, arrested, and
convicted—including in cases in which they are innocent. The extreme form of this practice
is systematic racial profiling in drug-law enforcement.

I've seen plenty of people mention "well they deserve it cause blacks commit so much crime". Trend I'm seeing is blacks getting arrested a lot more for just being black. I mean, see the numbers above.

Comparing arrests stats mean absolutely nothing and the lengths Im seeing people go through to justify that happened to that dude jogging only confirms it : Lots of America is still ass backwards.

www.law.umich.edu...

a reply to: ABNARTY

Thank you for the links! I'll definitely have a listen...

I am actually very concerned for young men today. Young women as well, but whereas women today are encouraged -- even expected -- to "have it all," in many ways it is very much the opposite for young men. And that's not right. No good can come from minimizing and belittling anyone like this. It's worthy of its own thread, though I don't feel I'm the one to write it... I have more observations and questions than answers.

But I do think "divide and conquer" is very much part of the equation for those perpetrating and perpetuating the division.

And it increasingly promotes the Victim Olympics, as everyone vies for "most" victimized of the victims. Which helps no one.

Thanks again for the links. Much appreciated!

originally posted by: ABNARTY
a reply to: Boadicea

You bring up a great point. The gender of all these people is lost (ignored?) in the media and public discourse.

I wish I was as articulate on the subject as the man in this video:
www.youtube.com...

When a white police officer shoots a black young man, the only thing people hear is white/black. End of discussion. Why not the young man part? As you point out it is mostly men. Why? And why does not one really give a flip in the national discussion?

Sorry OP. Not trying to derail the thread. I see where you are going and the data supports that to my eyes. It also supports my point which few even acknowledge. Just trying to find out why.

I think a thread on male violence would be much more interesting to ATS members in general than this one. I have my theories on the issue; nothing profound and very obvious.

originally posted by: AScrubWhoDied
a reply to: Scapegrace


Some interesting things about Murder:

African-American prisoners who are convicted of murder are about 50% more likely
to be innocent than other convicted murderers. Part of that disparity is tied to the race of the
victim. African Americans imprisoned for murder are more likely to be innocent if they were
convicted of killing white victims. Only about 15% of murders by African Americans have
white victims, but 31% of innocent African-American murder exonerees were convicted of
killing white people.

This is interesting, don't you think OP? Why would blacks be 50% more likely to be innocent when imprisoned for killing whites?

The convictions that led to murder exonerations with black defendants were 22% more
likely to include misconduct by police officers than those with white defendants. In addition,
on average black murder exonerees spent three years longer in prison before release than
white murder exonerees, and those sentenced to death spent four years longer.

Why would there be a 22% increase in misconduct by police when the defendant is non white?

Most wrongful convictions are never discovered. We have no direct measure of the
number of all convictions of innocent murder defendants, but our best estimate suggests that
they outnumber those we know about many times over. Judging from exonerations, half of
those innocent murder defendants are African Americans.

It makes sense right? Black people get arrested more. A lot more actually.


Now drugs:

The best national evidence on drug use shows that African Americans and whites use
illegal drugs at about the same rate. Nonetheless, African Americans are about five times as
likely to go to prison for drug possession as whites—and judging from exonerations,
innocent black people are about 12 times more likely to be convicted of drug crimes than
innocent white people.

I dont know about anyone else, but I see a trend here.

In general, very few ordinary, low-level drug convictions result in exoneration,
regardless of innocence, because the stakes are too low. In Harris County, Texas, however,
there have been 133 exonerations in ordinary drug possession cases in the last few years.
These are cases in which defendants pled guilty, and were exonerated after routine lab tests
showed they were not carrying illegal drugs. Sixty-two percent of the Harris County drugcrime guilty plea exonerees were African American in a county with 20% black residents.

This percentage is likely so high due to an higher arrest rate for people that happen to exist while black.

The main reason for this racial disproportion in convictions of innocent drug
defendants is that police enforce drug laws more vigorously against African Americans than
against members of the white majority, despite strong evidence that both groups use drugs at equivalent rates. African Americans are more frequently stopped, searched, arrested, and
convicted—including in cases in which they are innocent. The extreme form of this practice
is systematic racial profiling in drug-law enforcement.

I've seen plenty of people mention "well they deserve it cause blacks commit so much crime". Trend I'm seeing is blacks getting arrested a lot more for just being black. I mean, see the numbers above.

Comparing arrests stats mean absolutely nothing and the lengths Im seeing people go through to justify that happened to that dude jogging only confirms it : Lots of America is still ass backwards.

www.law.umich.edu...

How many innocent people are we talking about here? What’s the total number of subjects in the study that produced the “50% more likely to be innocent” conclusion? Fifty? A hundred? Out of a total number of how many African Americans convicted of killing whites?

Are you suggesting half of those arrested for murdering whites might be innocent? Even if that were true, there would still be 257 blacks arrested for murdering whites in 2018 who were probably guilty, as opposed to 151 whites arrested for killing blacks.

Even if there were actually twice as many whites who killed blacks in 2018, and only half the blacks arrested for killing whites were guilty, there would still be a hugely disproportionate number of black-on-white homicides based on the ratio of black-to-white population size in this country.

Were the black prisoners later found to be innocent selected at random for the study you cited, or were they cases that really stood out re: racist injustice, thereby motivating volunteers to prove their innocence?

I can certainly believe there are more blacks convicted of murdering whites who are innocent than vice versa. For one thing, there are so many of them arrested for homicide and negligent manslaughter each year — 53 percent out of almost 9,000 total arrests in 2018.

With almost 4,800 arrests for homicide/manslaughter in 2018, some black arrestees are bound to be innocent.

But I don’t buy your theory that massive racism in our criminal justice system is the reason blacks are arrested so much more for murder.

There’s simply too much evidence, too much smoke, to blame a racist system, and it would have to be a nationwide racist system, prevalent even in the most liberal states.

Even if I agreed with your theory that half of all blacks arrested for murdering whites might be innocent, how do you explain the far greater number of black-on-black homicides — 2,600 in 2018 alone, or more than five times the number of black-on-white arrests? What percentage of those could be victims of a grossly racist system of justice existing all over the United States? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, but then, this is certainly the right forum for that.

a reply to: Scapegrace

Not only did you completely ignore points, you didn't read the source material. I knew you wouldn't as you're not really intersted in facts but to confirm your biasness.

originally posted by: AScrubWhoDied
a reply to: Scapegrace

Not only did you completely ignore points, you didn't read the source material. I knew you wouldn't as you're not really intersted in facts but to confirm your biasness.

I would say you’re the one not interested in facts. You have nothing but dubious extrapolations based on a limited number of cases. I took the time to break down the numbers and percentages from the FBI UCR, which is compiled from reports by almost 18,000 law enforcement agencies nationwide.

Homicide and negligent manslaughter are crimes that typically get more resources and careful attention from law enforcement and the judicial system than any others.

You believe police agencies and the judicial system are riddled with racists who think nothing of arresting and convicting innocent blacks, especially when a white murder victim is involved. There’s nothing I can say that will change your mind about that.

Incidentally, you could look at the UCRs from each of the eight years of the Obama administration and the percentages will be largely the same. Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch, both of whom are black, were the AGs during Obama’s tenure. I don’t recall them or Obama inferring that the nation’s entire criminal justice system was so overwhelmingly racist that half of all blacks convicted of murder might be innocent. Don’t you think they would have said or done something in the eight years they held power if they thought that were the case? I’m sure they thought some blacks convicted of homicide were innocent, but not half.

a reply to: Scapegrace

It sure does seem to be the elephant in the room doesn't it?