Is, "the Christ story is all about love and forgiveness" [a continued discussion]

In a thread started by Out6of9Balance titled "Do you know what year Jesus was born?', Raggedyman and myself began an exchange that was predicated upon his suggestion that,

originally posted by: Raggedyman:
"[...] the Christ story is all about love and forgiveness

"

Though I found the discussion stimulating, I believe we had drifted too far from to OP to continue further. It is for this reason I am beginning this thread, without causing further disruption to Out6of9Balance's post.

I will begin by inserting all the relevant exchanges to date, then add one post noting that the thread is open for discussion.

Please Wait For It.

Thank You.



P.S.
I am also making a cross post to the original thread directing here, in hopes that those wishing to pursue this discussion will not further derail the OP subject.

Beginning historic posts contributing to thread

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

The Christian story is not about birthdates, colour of skin or looks, the Christ story is all about love and forgiveness
Jesus was God on Earth, actually the real image of the Father, came down to earth to show the Fathers love, worked among us humanity, showing how we should live, loving, caring and helping, then was executed for questioning the religious authority of the day.
Jesus was killed because He condemned the religious people, those in His own faith and it was His own faith who killed Him. Probably if Jesus returned today, Christians would want Him dead

He didn’t question the secular authority, didn’t force His faith, just loved and cared and showed a better way

Birthdate, speculative
Looks, speculative
Skin Colour is speculative as well.

He existed, only a fool would argue that
Was He a madman
A liar
Or
Was He who He said He was, asked CS Lewis

This is a little pointless to argue over, worth asking but there is no answer

originally posted by: Theli93

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

The Christian story is not about birthdates, colour of skin or looks, the Christ story is all about love and forgiveness
Jesus was God on Earth, actually the real image of the Father, came down to earth to show the Fathers love, worked among us humanity, showing how we should live, loving, caring and helping, then was executed for questioning the religious authority of the day.
Jesus was killed because He condemned the religious people, those in His own faith and it was His own faith who killed Him. Probably if Jesus returned today, Christians would want Him dead

He didn’t question the secular authority, didn’t force His faith, just loved and cared and showed a better way

Okay... sure.

Matthew 10:
“[34] Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. [35] For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— [36] a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.”

Luke 12:
“[49] I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! [50] But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! [51]Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. [52] From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. [53] They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.””

And, IMHO, the Church(es) has done fine job of fulfilling that promise.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Theli93

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Out6of9Balance

The Christian story is not about birthdates, colour of skin or looks, the Christ story is all about love and forgiveness
Jesus was God on Earth, actually the real image of the Father, came down to earth to show the Fathers love, worked among us humanity, showing how we should live, loving, caring and helping, then was executed for questioning the religious authority of the day.
Jesus was killed because He condemned the religious people, those in His own faith and it was His own faith who killed Him. Probably if Jesus returned today, Christians would want Him dead

He didn’t question the secular authority, didn’t force His faith, just loved and cared and showed a better way

Okay... sure.

Matthew 10:

[34] Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. [35] For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— [36] a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

Luke 12:

[49] I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! [50] But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! [51]Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. [52] From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. [53] They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”

And, IMHO, the Church(es) has done fine job of fulfilling that promise.

That’s beautiful but a blatant lie
You have taken scripture and only shown what suits your lying narrative

What is said before those verses
Leave that out because you are ignorant or because you want hate?
In Mathew 10, before your verse
Quote mining, lying, ignorance

".........
16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the "...........

Indicating Christians are to cause no harm

originally posted by: Theli93

originally posted by: Raggedyman
That’s beautiful but a blatant lie
You have taken scripture and only shown what suits your lying narrative

What is said before those verses
Leave that out because you are ignorant or because you want hate?
In Mathew 10, before your verse
Quote mining, lying, ignorance...

Okay, if you say so, pet.

However, quote mining is

the fallacious tactic of taking quotes out of context in order to make them seemingly agree with the quote miner's viewpoint or to make the comments of an opponent seem more extreme or to make it seem that the opponent holds positions they don't in order to make their positions easier to refute or demonize.

let me point out

• I gave entire paragraphs, not single lines
  
• There is nothing in your selections, let alone those entire chapters, that contradicts the points previously made. [ref: Matthew 10 & Luke 12]

I would, however, like to point out that the first line of Luke 12 begins a quote from Jesus, rendered as"

First of all, be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

I will also point out that the only reference to love in either of those chapters is in Matthew 10, wherein the entire paragraph reads:

[37] “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. [39] Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Now, as far as your implication to me that, "you want hate": That could not be further from the Truth. I will gladly stand with any "man" in his Right to believe as he will. That, however, does not mean that I will not challenge their "convictions" try their demonstrations of hypocrisy, and/or be first in line to oppose them if/when they attempt to impose or coerce their beliefs upon another.

Though I despise the enslavers, it would be exceedingly arrogant to attempt imply I hate their slaves (i.e. victims).

I tend to hold that:

All words are sacred and all prophets true; save only that they understand a little...

Any earnest pursuit of Truth will always have my respect, their expressed conclusions may, however, be of a different species.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Theli93

It is a blatant lie and you know it

Mathew 10

Jesus warns His disciples what is ahead of them

“16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”

As for Luke
Again Christ is not addressing you, Jesus addresses Christians and warns them that families will be divided over His message
Jesus warns His followers what is to come is going to be hard and painful, costing friends and family, costing beyond what a persons would consider acceptable
You seem to think the message is to you, it’s not
You are not a Christian so it’s irrelevant to you.
God promises to one day ease our pain

You read the bible as if it’s addressed to you, to everyone, it’s not

I don’t think you are lying, just ignorant

This OP, seems like an Out Of Body Argument.

Is that you, David Lynch?

Documentation of previous discussion is complete

The Thread is Now Open for Discussion

originally posted by: Theli93

Documentation of previous discussion is complete

The Thread is Now Open for Discussion

Wow.

I feel like there should be boxed wine, and cheese crackers... given the build up.

a reply to: Theli93

Oh,

Here you go. September 3 BC. 12/25 of 2 BC was the visit of the kings.

I tend to look at the story as a story about human suffering an conflict, rather then trying to glorify about having Satans head on a wall.

All the while having a god be better then his dear old dad without overthrowing him.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

It is a blatant lie and you know it

Mathew 10

Jesus warns His disciples what is ahead of them

You're absolutely correct there... "His disciples".


Oxford definition:

dis·ci·ple
/dəˈsīpəl/

noun
noun: disciple; plural noun: disciples

     a personal follower of Jesus during his life, especially one of the twelve Apostles.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
As for Luke
Again Christ is not addressing you, Jesus addresses Christians and warns them that families will be divided over His message
Jesus warns His followers what is to come is going to be hard and painful, costing friends and family, costing beyond what a persons would consider acceptable

In part he is addressing his disciples [see above]

Luke 12:1-12:

"Jesus began to speak first to his disciples..."

Luke 12:22-34:

"Then Jesus said to his disciples..."

Yes, in other portions he was addressing the "followers" or "congregants", but as to whether or not they were "Christians" may be debatable, especially considering in the corresponding section of Mark 10 it states:

[5] These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. [6] Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Do you even know or comprehend the hard line that separates a Jew from a Christian? [Hint: it has little to nothing to do with Jesus himself.]

originally posted by: Raggedyman
You seem to think the message is to you, it’s not
You are not a Christian so it’s irrelevant to you.
God promises to one day ease our pain

My, your not arrogant, conceited, or hypocritical at all... are you?
Please... "sing us the song of your people", oh Pharisee!

You have jumped to conclusions and made assumptions that are clearly without fact.

Shall I make segue here...

Luke 18

[9] To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: [10] “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [11] The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. [12] I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

[13] “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

[14] “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

originally posted by: Raggedyman
You read the bible as if it’s addressed to you, to everyone, it’s not

I don’t think you are lying, just ignorant

If you say so dear, but you really need to work on your reading comprehension and logic skills then, because your own presented evidences belie your proposals.

a reply to: infolurker

That appears to be addressing the subject matter of the other thread as to the birthdate of Jesus. How does it apply here?

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: Theli93

Oh,

Here you go. September 3 BC. 12/25 of 2 BC was the visit of the kings.

That was interesting, and answered a lot of questions. Thanks!
I sent that to my dad to watch. He is a 93 yr old Christian, and also a genius scientist.

Good video

God was here with the "watchers" when it all began. Christ was "not". Christ was a manifestation of God in the flesh. The purpose of that was exactly as prescribed.

If you think there is any more to that then you are attempting to know the thoughts of "God". This is impossible for a human.


The whole point is to get on board with whatever and let your dirty soul flow toward the "ocean" of "God" and eventually dissolve within it. To be ok with that part of you that was vacant because as flesh you are singular. As the "soul" you are the "ocean".

When you die, if you can't get into that, it seems you will wonder lonely and angry and pestering other flesh suit hack asses.

Right?

Who knows?

Pretty much no one but the dead.

a reply to: Theli93

That’s right theli
Matthew 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that place, as a testimony against them."

Meaning, if they are not interested, leave
That means it’s a message, accept or don’t, no one should be holding a knife to your throat.
If they didn’t value Jesus or His message then it was irrelevant.

You take little from here in the bible, a bit from there and present a fabrication of the truth.
You have no comprehension outside of a few pieces from here or there you read and then add your own bits that justify your argument

As for a it being a message only to the Jews from the apostles, at that stage, yes it was only a message to the Jews “then”.

Paul the Apostle after that message was delivered to the Jews took that message to the gentiles, again your ignorance is on display
www.elijahnet.net...

Romans 2/10, “to the Jews first, then the gentiles”

Unless you are a disciple or apostle the text you quoted, well most of, if not all of the bible does not address you
I don’t understand your confusion with that, believe or don’t, freewill, it’s your choice.

To add to that bizarre belief that the bible is demanding of you personally, you are now trying to say that the Christian message of Christ was only for Jews?
Is that right?

Did I miss something?

Stop, think, consider what you are saying first, then reply.
Don’t reply as if you understand the bible or what you think it should be saying, you don’t.


And finally, what separates a Jew from a Christian is everything to do with Jesus, everything.

originally posted by: Fools
God was here with the "watchers" when it all began.

How? The Grigori are typically considered to have been the lowest order of angels.

Bereish'th (aka Genesis) 1 [note the " ' " used for an "i" in the Hebrew name because the board's idiotic censoring replaces any occurrence of the 4 letters corresponding to 'feces' witn an "#".]

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.
3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

The Talmud and Midrash contain a variety of opinions on the origin and nature of angels. The angels were created on the second or the fifth day of creation
ref: Origin of Angels

The only thing of which we may be reasonably certain (according to the mythos), is that they were created before the 7th day.

Bereish'th (aka Genesis) 2

1 And the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

as "all the host of them" is typically thought to refer to, at least inclusively, the 'hosts of heaven'.

a reply to: Raggedyman

At this point, I honestly have to question here whether you are insane or just mentally incompetent of reason and logic? To evidence it, you add straw-man assumptions that are nowhere present except within your own mind (or intentional deceits).

originally posted by: Raggedyman
You take little from here in the bible, a bit from there and present a fabrication of the truth.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
To add to that bizarre belief that the bible is demanding of you personally, you are now trying to say that the Christian message of Christ was only for Jews?

Perhaps you should take your own advice:

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Don’t reply as if you understand the bible or what you think it should be saying, you don’t

And please, for your own sake, don't be so arrogant as to present yourself as if you have some supernatural ability to know the mind of another just because your debate and reasoning skills are visibly faltering.

The only thing that is becoming clear to me is your apparent inability to form a cogent argument or proposal, and the only thing you know about scripture is what you have been told to believe... clearly demonstrating the slavers' church indoctrination.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
And finally, what separates a Jew from a Christian is everything to do with Jesus, everything.

Clearly, you are dancing in the chasm of your own ignorance.

A Jew may:

• Believe that Jesus was Mashiach
  
• Believe that Jesus was, "the only begotten son of G*d"
  
• Believe that Jesus was G*d incarnate

The difference is in the prayer taught to every Judain child, the Shema (as instructed by Torah), and they hope to have upon their lips when they pass on.

It begins:

שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָֽד׃
Sh'ma Yisra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Hear, Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.

And here is your key to comprehending the division; "the Lord is One." Not a duplicity... not a trinity... nor any other multiplicity.

"The Lord is One." He may have any myriad of emanations, messengers/angels, prophets, children, or other creations/manifestations, but he remains the One and only source of all creation... both good and evil, saint and sinner, teacher and traitor, genius and imbecile... One.

It is my contention that Jesus' primary purpose was to teach that no intercessor is needed for his children to commune with him. Not priest, not prophet, not rabbi or teacher... just the willing son or daughter.

His instruction, from Aramaic translation:

9 Therefore pray in this manner: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven so on earth.
11 Give us bread for our needs from day to day.
12 And forgive us our offenses, as we have forgiven our offenders;
13 And do not let us enter into temptation, but deliver us from error.
Because thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever and ever.
Amen.

a reply to: Theli93

Messianic Jew, do you keep the Ten Commandments?
Do you pray “in Jesus name” ?

I don’t know much of messianic Jews but unless they call on Christ, accept Him, they don’t have salvation
Without Jesus you have no access to God, you have no access to salvation and you must go through your Mosaic covenant, for whatever that is worth
According to the New Testament, if you don’t have Jesus, if you are not in His “christian” covenant then you as a Jew are under the Mosaic covenant, “not a jot or title shall pass”, condemned by that which can’t save you

“always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

But that is a strawman, we were discussing the bible talking to Christians not non Christians, we were talking that Christians were the ones who should expect persecution and the destruction of family weren’t we, did you forget that
Wouldn’t it be wise to discuss and work on one issue at a time before moving on to the next. Less confusion.

How about we finish what we started, who the bible is addressed to?
That would be wise


In my opinion, a Jew is a follower of the Mosaic law, a non Jew doesn’t.
A Christian is a follower of Jesus, a Messianic Jew is a follower of Jesus, not Mosaic law. A Jew by birth, Christian by faith. Mosaic Jews don’t recognise Messianic Jews as Jews from what I am told