Jesus said;- Forgive your brother when he repents

“Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says ‘I repent’, you must forgive him”- Luke ch17 vv3-4

“Then Peter came up and said to him ‘Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? As often as seven times?’ Jesus said to him ‘I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven’”- Matthew ch18 vv21-22

Here we see a blueprint for the forgiveness of brethren.
The statement offered in Luke clearly sets out a three-stage process.
1 ) Your brother sins against you.
2 ) Your brother expresses his repentance.
2 ) You forgive your brother.

When Matthew tells the story, Peter’s question does not mention the middle stage.
However, the middle stage is clearly implied when Jesus illustrates his answer, by telling the parable of the Unforgiving Servant (vv23-35).
“Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants…”
One of the servants owed a large debt. He pleaded for the debt to be forgiven (which is the middle stage), and the king forgave him accordingly.
The same servant wanted to claim a smaller debt from one of the others. The other servant pleaded for the debt to be forgiven, but the first servant refused and exacted the full payment.
When the king heard about this, he was angry enough to cancel the forgiveness of the large debt.
“So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart”.
The message is that God forgives, in response to our repentance, and expects us to do the same.

Then why has the modern Christian world absorbed what strikes me as a modified version of this message?
I refer to the assumption that a Christian is obliged to forgive injuries automatically, without waiting for signs of repentance.
We used to hear it on the news, on occasions like IRA bomb attacks; “As a Christian, of course, I forgive the people who killed my husband/child”.
But when have we ever been told to forgive those who are NOT asking for forgiveness, who are quite indifferent to the fact that they are doing something wrong?

Some people will answer that question by citing the example of Jesus on the Cross.
They may quote “Today you will be with me in paradise”. But those words were spoken to a man who was clearly repentant; “We are receiving the just reward for our sins” (Luke c23 vv41-43).
They may quote “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (v34).
But that escape clause was available only because it was true. If the authorities had realised exactly what they were doing wrong, they would not have done it, as Paul observes; “None of the [human] rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory” (1 Corinthians ch2 v8).
I see no reason why it should be applicable to people who know full well what they are doing.

Again, they will quote “Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors” (Matthew ch6 v12), and the standard moral that we should forgive others “as he forgives us”.


But this criterion should be applied accurately. Where is it said that God forgives us without at least asking for repentance? In the parable of the “Unforgiving Servant”, it is taken for granted that forgiveness of debt follows on from a request for forgiveness.
John makes it an explicit condition; “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins” (1 John ch1 v19).
That is the teaching of the rest of the New Testament. We are sinners, but we may turn back to God, and then we are forgiven.

I think this brings us to the heart of the disagreement.
This quiet assumption that we must forgive every injury instantly, as soon as the injury has been inflicted, doesn’t it go hand in hand with an assumption that God forgives in the same way?
As the Frenchman said, “Of course God will forgive me, that’s what he does [c’est son metier].”
So it is part and parcel of the comfortable belief that God does not take sin seriously, that judgement has been cancelled.

Are we not teaching ourselves that we can offend God with as much impunity as other people can offend us?

Sorry, this was meant to be in Faith and Theology. I launched it from the wrong older thread.

a reply to: DISRAELI
Thank you, Semperfortis, for moving this thread back to its intended place.

And the Buddha (600 years before the Christ) said:

Upon a person spitting on him (the Buddha)...

But Buddha’s disciples became angry, and they reacted. His closest disciple, Ananda, said, “This is too much. We cannot tolerate it. He has to be punished for it, otherwise everybody will start doing things like this!”

Buddha said, “You keep silent. He has not offended me, but you are offending me. He is new, a stranger.

He must have heard from people something about me, that this man is an atheist, a dangerous man who is throwing people off their track, a revolutionary, a corrupter.

And he may have formed some idea, a notion of me. He has not spit on me, he has spit on his notion.

He has spit on his idea of me because he does not know me at all, so how can he spit on me?

“If you think on it deeply,” Buddha said, “he has spit on his own mind. I am not part of it, and I can see that this poor man must have something else to say because this is a way of saying something.

Spitting is a way of saying something. There are moments when you feel that language is impotent: in deep love, in intense anger, in hate, in prayer. There are intense moments when language is impotent. Then you have to do something. When you are angry, intensely angry, you hit the person, you spit on him, you are saying something. I can understand him. He must have something more to say, that’s why I’m asking, “What next?”

Shall I post more? Unconditional love requires unconditional forgiveness.

My brother quoted a smarter man. Foregivness is a gift you give yourself

I hear what you’re saying, and/but (not debating here, rather discussing):

What about blessing enemies and those who curse you, doing good to them that hate you, and praying for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you?
If someone will sue for your shirt, give your cloak, too...
If you’re stricken on a cheek, turn the other cheek...

If you don’t forgive, what ARE you doing? Being mad/holding a grudge?

How do you think “forgetting” fits in to these things?

Some Bible version/translations say that Jesus said if you are angry with your brother for NO REASON, you are guilty of murder... A lot of them leave out the no reason part, so maybe THAT partly answers your question about where the sentiment comes from?

ETA: and charity/love believes, hopes, and endures all things... Maybe hoping for repentance, if that’s what is hoped for, is enough to believe it is already/will be done...

Are we not teaching ourselves that we can offend God with as much impunity as other people can offend us?

What it teaches is Karma. That the sin we do against others, is the sin we do against ourselves.
Not only do we have to learn to forgive others, we also have to learn to forgive ourselves.

7 x 70 is 490 numerical value for Hebrew word “tamim” aka perfection,

So if I went around pushing old ladies an randomly kicking guys in their jewels, and get caught by vengeful mob. Repent my ways in the name of Christ an accept him as my Lord an Savior, an not burst into flames,all should be forgiven?

Just asking cause Satan might take advantage of it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

If your brother, neighbor, enemy clearly knows they sinned against you there is no reason to offer forgiveness until they repent. You can still Love them and in your heart forgive them. But if they are not seeking forgiveness, to offer your forgiveness to them would be of no value to them.

If your brother, neighbor, enemy doesn’t believe what they are doing is sinful than you should forgive them for their ignorance.

And the forgiveness you offer as you can see from the parable is more something you are doing for yourself in acknowledgment of God’s Grace than it is for the other person.

The same sentiment is found in the Buddhist quote because they were likely both inspired by the same source of Light.

originally posted by: Specimen88
So if I went around pushing old ladies an randomly kicking guys in their jewels, and get caught by vengeful mob. Repent my ways in the name of Christ an accept him as my Lord an Savior, an not burst into flames,all should be forgiven?

Just asking cause Satan might take advantage of it.

Jesus answered Satan already when Satan told Jesus to cast himself off the mountain.

Jesus said do not tempt God.

a reply to: Isurrender73

That being able to use his name for roshamboing random strangers was wrong, and that violence only begot more violence, mean while it the vengeful mob that being tempted?

If God were so easy tempt, why call him holy.

Neanderthals buried their dead with trinkets. We'll never know their take on forgiveness but bet they honored it on some level.

I always defer to the Lord’s Prayer and the fruit of the Spirit
Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, As it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, As we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, The power, and the glory, For ever and ever. Amen.

Read more at: www.lords-prayer-words.com...

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."

As opposed

¹⁹Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, ²⁰idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, ²¹envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So we will have to disagree
Jesus/God are forgiving to those who request, we as Christians are not offered that option as we are not God
We are called to forgive not forget, doesn’t mean we should be foolish or ignorant to problems or issues relating to forgiving others

originally posted by: FyreByrd
Unconditional love requires unconditional forgiveness.

"Unconditional love" is not, in fact, the Christian premise, though I think the concept has been borrowed by the more sentimental side of modern Christianity

originally posted by: japhrimu
not debating here, rather discussing

Yes, exactly what the theology sub-forum is supposed to be for. We even have a sticky thread saying so

What about blessing enemies and those who curse you, doing good to them that hate you, and praying for them that despitefully use you, and persecute you?
If someone will sue for your shirt, give your cloak, too...
If you’re stricken on a cheek, turn the other cheek...

Yes, all these things are telling us not to be negative towards people, but there is perhaps a neutral stage between that and offering a bonus positivity.
It's all about the nature of the relationship. I see now that I should have included this point in the opening post, because it's part of the answer to most of the responses that people have been giving.
I've argued elsewhere that the whole sin question is a relationship issue. Sin breaks the relationship, between God and man, forgiveness is about restoring the relationship. I'm now applying this to the relationship between humans.
If two countries end, or manage to avoid a state of war btween them, it does not automatically follow that they become allies. There is a middle point.

If you don’t forgive, what ARE you doing? Being mad/holding a grudge?

Do you think God forgives automatically? The New testament doesn't say so. So what is God doing when he doesn't forgive us? Is he holding wicked feelings of anger? No- he is simply not accepting us into a restored relationship.

Some Bible version/translations say that Jesus said if you are angry with your brother for NO REASON, you are guilty of murder... A lot of them leave out the no reason part, so maybe THAT partly answers your question about where the sentiment comes from?

I've checked that verse in matthew, and it seems that the variation is in the manuscripts themselves.

I know the sentimental view, as I call it, has affected interpretation of the next verses about leaving your gift on the altar. I've done a thread on it, but if I hunt for it now I shall lose what I've already typed (been caught that way before). Jesus says "if your brother has something against you" (in other words, if you have injured him), you must go and sort that out first. In other words, go to him in repentance and get his forgiveness. I have heard (more than once, I think) a preacher misquote that text as "if you have something against your brother", and preach on that basis; that is, go to him and offer forgiveness. In other words, the errant brother is tacitly released from the obligation to seek forgiveness, which Jesus is trying to impose on him.

I think the source may be a more generalised sentimental streak in the modern world, going back to the Victorians. Angels being portrayed as feminine would be another symptom.

Leave your gifts before the altar

As for making charitable assumptions about repentance; do we think God makes charitable assumptions? Or does he want the real thing?

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Jesus/God are forgiving to those who request, we as Christians are not offered that option as we are not God

As far as I can see, my first two quoted passages in the OP are presenting us with exactly that plan. "if he says; I repent". "You should have forgiven your fellow-servant when he asked for it."

If Love obliged us to forgive unconditionally, then the God who is Love would be doing the same thing. The New Testament teaches that he doesn't.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Jesus/God are forgiving to those who request, we as Christians are not offered that option as we are not God

As far as I can see, my first two quoted passages in the OP are presenting us with exactly that plan. "if he says; I repent". "You should have forgiven your fellow-servant when he asked for it."

If Love obliged us to forgive unconditionally, then the God who is Love would be doing the same thing. The New Testament teaches that he doesn't.

Well I had a bit of a look and so far, can’t argue with your theology, having said that I am not quite sold yet

Seems I might have to spend a bit of time digging and sifting.
Well worth a look, appreciate the thread

originally posted by: AnrkE
My brother quoted a smarter man. Foregivness is a gift you give yourself

Was this sage, whoever he is, talking about forgiving other people, or the idea of "forgving yourself"?

On forgiving other people; I suppose the idea is that a sense of vengeance makes you feel bad and needs to be changed.
This whole question is a relationship issue. The basic theological theme of sin/repentance/ forgiveness is about the relationship between God and man, being broken and being healed. The same applies to the relationship between humans. If you just do a one-sided forgiveness, that might make you feel better, but it does nothing to heal the relationship because the other side has no motivation to change. That's also exactly what would be wrong if God himself forfgave automatically.

On forgiving oneself; the new age idea that guilt makes you feel bad, and that needs to be changed into a state of feeling good about yourself.
The same answer as above, only more so. If you have injured other people, deciding to "forgive yourself" for what you have done to them does nothing to heal the relationship.

originally posted by: japhrimu
...
If you don’t forgive, what ARE you doing? Being mad/holding a grudge?
...
ETA: and charity/love believes, hopes, and endures all things... Maybe hoping for repentance, if that’s what is hoped for, is enough to believe it is already/will be done...

Paul also tells us that love “bears all things.” (1 Corinthians 13:4-8) As the Kingdom Interlinear shows, the thought is that love covers over all things. It does not “give away a fault” of a brother, as the wicked are prone to do. (Psalm 50:20; Proverbs 10:12; 17:9) Yes, the thought here is the same as at 1 Peter 4:8: “Love covers a multitude of sins.”

Psalm 50:20

20 You sit and speak against your own brother;

You reveal the faults of* [Or “defame.”] your own mother’s son.

Proverbs 10:12

12 Hatred is what stirs up contentions,

But love covers over all transgressions.

Proverbs 17:9

9 Whoever forgives* [Lit., “covers over.”] a transgression seeks love,

But the one who keeps harping on a matter separates close friends.

Love also does not quickly take offense. So Paul tells us that love “does not become provoked.” It is not thin-skinned. It exercises self-control. There are circumstances when it is easy to get provoked, for which reason Paul felt the need to counsel Timothy: “A slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil”​—yes, does not get provoked—​“instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed.”​—2 Timothy 2:24, 25.

Continuing with things that love is not, Paul counsels: “Love . . . does not keep account of the injury.” That does not mean that love takes no note of an injury. Jesus showed how we are to handle matters when we have been seriously injured. (Matthew 18:15-17) But love does not allow us to continue to be resentful, to harbor grudges. Not to keep account of an injury means to be forgiving and to forget about it once the matter has been handled in a Scriptural way. Yes, do not torment yourself or make yourself miserable by going over and over a wrong, keeping account of an injury!

Coming back to the positive side, the things that love is, Paul begins: “Love is long-suffering.” It has been said that there can be no such thing as Christian fellowship without long-suffering, that is, without patiently putting up with one another. That is so because all of us are imperfect, and our imperfections and shortcomings try others. No wonder the apostle Paul lists this aspect first as to what love is!

Love does not rejoice over unrighteousness but “rejoices with the truth.” Love and truth go hand in hand​—God is love, and at the same time, he is “the God of truth.” (Psalm 31:5) Love rejoices at seeing truth triumph over and expose falsehood. However, since truth is contrasted with unrighteousness, the thought may also be that love rejoices with righteousness. Love rejoices at the triumph of righteousness, as Jehovah’s worshipers are commanded to do at the fall of Babylon the Great.​—Revelation 18:20.

Revelation 18:8,20:

8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.
...
20 “Be glad over her, O heaven, also you holy ones and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced his judgment on her in your behalf!”

He is a liar! (part 1 of 2)

originally posted by: Specimen88
So if I went around pushing old ladies an randomly kicking guys in their jewels, and get caught by vengeful mob. Repent my ways in the name of Christ an accept him as my Lord an Savior, an not burst into flames,all should be forgiven?

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by "repentance" in this particular context. I'm not talking about the repentance we give to God, but about an analogy of that repentance.
The whole question is a relationship issue. God 's grace means "This relationship is broken, but I offer you the chance to come back", Repentance means "I want to come back", and Forgiveness means "That's all settled, then."
The argument here is that there needs to ba an analogous exchange between humans. The way to place the vengeful mob is to admit you were in the wrong, declare your willingness to accept any punishment that may be comimg, and live up to (not just make) a promise not to repeat the offences.