Past pandemic comparisons

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: asabuvsobelow

That would be 100,000 deaths on top of the 150000 though.
Ya, I think someone might notice, especially if refrigerated truck started filling up with dead bodies at their local hospital.
Maybe they wouldnt know what to call it, what its name was, but they would know the it was something.

100,000 spread out over many weeks, compared to 150,000 in a single day.

And no one would have known of the bodies being put into trucks if the media had not made a spectical out of it, If it even actually happen in the first place. It was after all the MSM that showed it, and they are less then reliable.

originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: tanstaafl
And that's the problem. You don't know when or if you are infected. Two weeks you can be active with you feeling no effect.

The burden of proof is on the accuser in this country.

If you want to claim I'm infected and put me in jail (effectively that is what quarantine is) - then by god you have to prove it.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: tanstaafl
We usually quarantine those that are possibly sick with the virus.

I am not sick. Neither are the dozens of people I work with, or the millions of others that are on lockdown right now.

a reply to: tanstaafl
And, of course, there cant be any proof without testing, how convenient is that.
It means you could come across me, coughing, hacking, stumbling around you at the grocery store...
And well the borden of proof will be on you.
Until they decide to test me, there is nothing you can do about it. And, when the test come back negative, there will be nothing you can do about it, that's if they even test me.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: tanstaafl
And, of course, there cant be any proof without testing, how convenient is that.

Testing is becoming more and more available every day, and...

In order for you to insist that I be tested, you have to have specific and articulable facts supporting a suspicion that I'm infected.

Do you? If not, stfu and get out of my way.

It means you could come across me, coughing, hacking, stumbling around you at the grocery store...

Those symptoms are specific and articulable facts - although for me, it would simply mean I'd steer clear of you.

Are you seriously suggesting that people have not been doing this in this country, all day, every day, since the invention of the grocery store?

People die of the flu. Are you going to also start requiring everyone provide proof they are flu free? What about Polio?

And well the borden of proof will be on you.
Until they decide to test me, there is nothing you can do about it. And, when the test come back negative, there will be nothing you can do about it, that's if they even test me.

No clue what you are trying to say here - it sounds like you're making my argument for me.

Thanks...

originally posted by: tanstaafl


This is the first time in history that the uninfected have been the ones placed in quarantine.

Not true at all. I cant speak for the US but in Australia, during the Spanish Flu, we enacted measures very similar to this, closing down pubs and many businesses, banning gatherings of people, and essentially forcing people to remain in their homes. It was all repealed once the threat of the disease passed. It is said to have saved the lives of 10's of thousands.

a reply to: tanstaafl

I'm just gonna encourage parents to get their children immunized against polio.. the govt is the one insisting they do. But then, you have some whining about their rights on that one also, dont you?

If you were arguing that they jumped the gun when they ordered these statewide lockdowns, I would be more agreeable. I think that my area was locked down before we even had our first confirmed case. But then all it took was a rumor circulating through town that our hospital had a case...(I still believe that rumor to be true)... for the stores to be cleaned out of everything identifiable as food. The people were already preparing to lock themselves down as much as possible. But, I ain't much for cookie cutter solutions or generalizations anyways.. not all elderly would rather be out and about during a pandemic risking death. Not all pregnant mothers would be willing wo risk death to give their unborn child a chance of life. And, not every area of a state needs to be locked down in my opinion.
But, that isnt what your are arguing, is it? It's all about your right and how the govt cant interfere with your right. Well, ya, they can.. and they do. A planeload of people can find themselves quarentined if one passenger is discovered in flight to be sick with a disease. Hospital staff can be if a patient comes in with a highly contagious disease if its believed they came into contact with them. The CDC along with the state health depts have the power to do this. They always have. Your rights kind of take second place when it comes to public health or national security issues.

originally posted by: harold223
originally posted by: tanstaafl
"This is the first time in history that the uninfected have been the ones placed in quarantine."

Not true at all. I cant speak for the US but in Australia, during the Spanish Flu, we enacted measures very similar to this, closing down pubs and many businesses, banning gatherings of people, and essentially forcing people to remain in their homes. It was all repealed once the threat of the disease passed. It is said to have saved the lives of 10's of thousands.

I freely admit I could be wrong about this, even in our country, but...

This kind of action only makes sense in a true emergency. This is not it.

I still don't know a single person who even knows anyone who had this, including my boss, who left on a 4 1/2 month cruise that started the first week of January. His ship finally had to call it quits about 3 weeks ago when they were in Australia, and he was forced to disembark in Perth and catch a series of flights from there, to Sydney, to LA, to Atlanta...

I can't remember the last time I even heard someone say they were sick.

All I see now is a bunch of scared widgets obsessing about avoiding coming to close to anyone, wearing masks and gloves and acting like they're scared of their own shadow.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: tanstaafl
I'm just gonna encourage parents to get their children immunized against polio.. the govt is the one insisting they do.

Yeah, and thankfully, they haven't gone full fascist retard and taken my kids away because I refuse to participate in their paranoid delusions... at least not yet.

But then, you have some whining about their rights on that one also, dont you?

Whining? You obviously have no concept of what is really and truly meant by the Rights that our forefathers fought, bled and died for @ 250 years ago. Sad, really. One doesn't whine about them, one stands up to tyranny and demands that you respect them - or they get trampled. Kind of like what is happening right now.

If you were arguing that they jumped the gun when they ordered these statewide lockdowns, I would be more agreeable.

Jumped the gun? They're still 'jumping the gun'. There is simply absolutely no need for 90% of the actions they have taken and are continuing to take - except possibly in certain densely packed places like NYC - and even there, they should be highly targeted.

I have no problem with the government making suggestions for people to protect themselves. The problem is, the information they are providing is not only ineffective in the long run, it is totally lacking in what can provide real, ongoing, serious protection for everyone.

What they should be doing is making strong recommendations to people for how to boost their immune systems naturally so they don't have to worry about not only SARS-Cov-2, but also any other bugger that comes their way.

But there is not only no money in that, the government is still infested with deep-state medical mafia bosses that want to destroy our freedoms, and doing so would completely destroy the entire facade that is the medical/pharmaceutical/industrial complex.

The people were already preparing to lock themselves down as much as possible.

It is not unreasonable for anyone who is at extreme risk for this - or the flu or anything else - to do what they feel is necessary to protect themselves. Again, if they simply learned and implemented proper nutrition and supplementation practices in their lives, they wouldn't need to worry about it, but again, it is their choice.

not all elderly would rather be out and about during a pandemic risking death.

That is perfectly fine - but you say that like someone is suggesting they should.

Not all pregnant mothers would be willing wo risk death to give their unborn child a chance of life.

So they should stay the fook home... right?

And, not every area of a state needs to be locked down in my opinion.
But, that isnt what your are arguing, is it? It's all about your right and how the govt cant interfere with your right.

That is correct. If I am healthy, and am not exhibiting any symptoms, then they should have to prove that I am a danger to others before being able to prevent me at gunpoint from going to work, opening my place of business to the public, going to the park with my kids, etc etc.

Yes, those are our Rights as Americans, and if you disagree, then by all means, move to China where thy will be happy to weld you in your apartment until you die of thirst.

Well, ya, they can.. and they do.

Yes. I know. Fascism and tyranny are always there, waiting for their chance to strike. We are experiencing a taste of it right now - and it helps a lot when they have people like you who are not only willing to accept it, but cheer them on.

A planeload of people can find themselves quarentined if one passenger is discovered in flight to be sick with a disease.

That isn't what we're talking about. I haven't been on a plane in some time. And again - I am not sick, and also know how to protect myself while I'm out and about.

Your rights kind of take second place when it comes to public health or national security issues.

I wouldn't have a problem with them exercising extraordinary powers like this if they did so with the best interests of our nation and citizens at heart.

They aren't, and they don't care about us - the people, the average citizenry in this country. Well - I actually believe the President does, but he is surrounded by medical fascists like Fauci who are either woefully ignorant (almost certainly deliberately so due to their financial ties to the medical mafia), or is a clueless imbecile, or, worst case, are pure evil pos guilty of ongoing crimes against humanity over the last 50-100 years. Note: I do not think they are either clueless imbeciles or ignorant.

a reply to: tanstaafl

The founders didnt fight for my rights.. or the rights of slaves.. it was all men who were endowed with inalienable rights, women weren't included, neither were Africans is seems.
Those struggles took a tad bit longer..

And ya, I know, in your alternate reality, only the talking heads on fox and the like speak the truth and anyone who doesnt agree with your warped sense of reality is corrupt, socialist, misinformed, or bought off. Trump is a genius who knows what he is talking about, but any scientist that says even the smallest fact that goes against what trump says is the enemy...

We still have a shortage of protective equipment in our hospitals around here.. can we at least wait till they get stocked back up before we open the door for round two of this?

I really wonder how trump and you but my rights people would handle it if the medical staff and first responders just started saying heck with it and not showing up. Which would be perfectly within their rights to do!!

What about trump's ties?? By what I hear the company that makes that drug trump keeps trying to sell us paid Cohen a rather nice sum of money to get to. crawl into his ear and chatter!!

Most of the people on the plane wouldnt be showing any symptoms either.. and, many of the people running around with the virus dont have real noticable symptoms.

a reply to: dawnstar

By the way...
Typhoid Mary never showed any sign she was sick...
But she left a trail of sick and dead..

She spent the last thirty years of her life in isolation!!

Kind of kills your idea that they cant test you or quarentine you because you arent sick, doesnt it??

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: tanstaafl

The founders didnt fight for my rights.. or the rights of slaves.

Yes. They did. You're just too blinded by petty hatred to see.

it was all men who were endowed with inalienable rights, women weren't included, neither were Africans is seems.

You are wrong, but again, too blinded by petty leftist hatred to see anything clearly.

There were plenty of white slaves, and also more than a few free blacks.

Yes, women were not allowed to vote, but then - neither were a lot of men. Were you unaware that you had to a land owner to be able to vote.

So there were a lot of disenfranchised white males back then too.

Fyi: this wasn't a uniquely American thing, it was like this all over the world.

Question: which country was it that actually ended slavery, and finally gave women the privilege of voting?

Personally, I think there should be major restrictions on who can vote - and one thing that should disqualify anyone immediately is if they are on welfare of any kind.

Those struggles took a tad bit longer.

And ya, I know, in your alternate reality, only the talking heads on fox and the like speak the truth and anyone who doesnt agree with your warped sense of reality is corrupt, socialist, misinformed, or bought off.

And ya, I know, you think you know me, but ya don't... but don't let reality get in the way of your warped view of irreality.

Trump is a genius who knows what he is talking about, but any scientist that says even the smallest fact that goes against what trump says is the enemy.

Yeah, I've heard this bizarre leftist talking point before, no clue where it comes from...

We still have a shortage of protective equipment in our hospitals around here.

Yeah, that big meanite Trup went around to all of the hospitals in all of the States and took their PPE away...

I really wonder how trump and you but my rights people would handle it if the medical staff and first responders just started saying heck with it and not showing up.

I'd be tickled pink. That would mean I could get back to work.

Which would be perfectly within their rights to do!!

I wish they would...

What about trump's ties??

Yeah! He wears some pretty awesome power ties. Wonder whop picks them out for him?

By what I hear the company that makes that drug trump keeps trying to sell us paid Cohen a rather nice sum of money to get to. crawl into his ear and chatter!!

Oh - yeah, I've heard that silly ridiculous bizarre false talking point to... of course, you'll believe anything your TDS brain hears that trashes Trump.

Most of the people on the plane wouldnt be showing any symptoms either.

No, but the fact that I was on the plane too is called a specific and articulable fact that would support a reasonable suspicion that I could, in fact, be infected. Regardless of my personal knowledge that would allow me to keep myself healthy even if I was infected, I can see the argument for having me self-quarantine for a couple of weeks.

and, many of the people running around with the virus dont have real noticable symptoms.

Maybe. But in fact, you don't know that.

a reply to: thebtheb

The difference with this virus is that it's a lot deadlier than the flu.

Mortality rate

Flu 0.1%
CV19 3.4%

So about 34 times more deadly.

You say lockdown doesn't work, but it's not intended to be THE solution, merely a management strategy. What do we do then, just let it run wild and watch the bodies pile up, as well as straining the health services of the world to breaking point?

Can't see the advantage.

And herd immunity would work - if most people are immune, the thing can't spread and would die off.

So what if it does mutate? A vaccine can be tweaked.

a reply to: tanstaafl
I am aware that there were white indentured servants... I am a descendant of them..
I am also aware that the Africans that were brought here by the slave traders were also considered indentured servants originally and had the same rights as the white ones.
It's hard to claim that either had the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. And the avenue of the white servants decreased, they were replaced by the steady flow of africans. Cant really say they had the freedom of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness, can you??
And, the African slave was freed and the males given the right to vote nationally before women were. The women were having eggs shot at them while marching down streets in the 1900s.
And, personally, I think... no taxation without representation..you want to start eliminating people from the voter rolls? Fine, you eliminate them from the irs files. Give them a card that exempts them from sales tax, property tax, all kinds of taxes federal, state, and local.
Heck, make that offer to people and I bet you would have plenty willingly jumping off the voter rolls.

There is a shortage of ppe!! Are you denying that point or just trying to divert attention to the image you are trying to portray me as being? YOU DON'T KNOW ME EITHER!!! I never pointed blame towards anyone on that one.. but, it might be a wise move to try to correct that problem before we loosen up and open the floodgates of newly infected back onto the healthcare systems!!

Theres alot of people with far more medical knowledge than you saying that in many cases there are no noticable cases!! If you dont mind, I'll put my faith in them and science, not on a bunch of deluded, paranoid people who have convinced themselves that they are the only ones who know the truth and everyone else is out to get them.

Your rights arent what is in question here.. the govt has always had the right to infringe on those rights for the sake of public health. It's not even debatable. They locked up a perfectly healthy typhoid Mary for 30 years because she kept making the weaker humans sick and killing them!!!

It's more of a matter of weather they have placed too much burden on the people than can be justified by the public health risk.
By the way, my son has found the perfect time to go grocery shopping.. sunday morning... always has been. Because everybody is in the churches!!! Yes, today, and he passes about 5 to get to a store, he sees the cars in the parking lot!! Maybe in some areas of the country they are burdensome... but I dont see it here. Just how burdensome are they where your at really??
Meanwhile... Smithfield has been shut down till further notice. Not because of any govt decree, but because they had a virus outbreak within their employees. So, if you love your pork, better hit the stores fast!!

a reply to: carewemust

I don't know if that's a genuine warning from them, or is it more of a hope, so they don't look so incompetent.

You are projecting

This is "your" mindset

I appreciate your thoughts on this OP.
I also appreciate your non political presentation.
Thank you for taking the time.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: tanstaafl
I am aware that there were white indentured servants... I am a descendant of them..
I am also aware that the Africans that were brought here by the slave traders were also considered indentured servants originally and had the same rights as the white ones.

Are you also aware that there were more black slave traders than there were white slave traders?

It is all irrelevant though. Personal and private ownership of one human over another was abolished long ago (relative to our lifetimes).

Of course, most people today are slaves, just economic slaves, without even knowing it.

There is a shortage of ppe!! Are you denying that point

The fact that there is a hosrtage of ppe is simply a reflection of the ridiculous crappy state of our health systems, in general. In general. Meaning, this is a systemic problem, caused by those who have been running the show for the last 80 years.

So, which states/municipalities are having the hardest problem?

Hint: They are pretty much all socialist municipalities that have been run into the ground by the dems.

Theres alot of people with far more medical knowledge than you saying that in many cases there are no noticable cases!! If you dont mind, I'll put my faith in them and science, not on a bunch of deluded, paranoid people who have convinced themselves that they are the only ones who know the truth and everyone else is out to get them.

So, if they are saying there are no noticeable cases - why the fook are you saying we all have to put ourselves in jail?

Your rights arent what is in question here.

My Rights - your Rights - everyone's Rights - should always be a primary consideration and question.

the govt has always had the right to infringe on those rights for the sake of public health.

A virus like this does not justify this kind of unilateral universal over the top ridiculous response.

It's not even debatable.

It absolutely and is always debatable. When the true CFR for this thing turns out to be not much different than a bad flu, then why haven't we been doing this kind of thing for the flu?

They locked up a perfectly healthy typhoid Mary for 30 years because she kept making the weaker humans sick and killing them!!!

So... she wasn't perfectly healthy. She was a carrier.

I am not a carrier. There is a difference.

By the way, my son has found the perfect time to go grocery shopping.

Right now, I like to go when they are their busiest - just to gawk at the sillies with the masks and gloves who are terrified of their own shadows.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Ya, well some of us dont like being in crowded shops and malls during the best of times and really dont find enough pleasure laughing and gauking at others to be worth being in the mob.

How do you know you are not a carrier?? The only way you could know is if you either was tested for the antibodies and found you had them or you were just tested for the virus. This is especially true if you have a habit of going to busy grocery stores just to hang around and gawk at those who are actually taking the advice of the CDC more seriously than you. Heck, I probably am less likely to be a carrier than you but couldnt say for sure.

Well, obviously. Our constitution did not grant the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness to everyone since they left out the slaves along with about half of the population--'the women!!
All those churches, practicing their constitutional right to congegate.. many of them baptists. "Its a command from god!"" Which I guess god commanded just the men of the church because well, if her husband doesnt want her to be going to church, well she shouldnt be going to church... and, oh, you poor unlucky saps, deprived of you paycheck... when unemployment has been expanded and many will be getting more from that than they did from their paycheck!! But, what does it mean for the wife to submit to the husband? One Baptist preacher was asked.. it means that if her husband doesnt want her to work. She shouldnt be working!!

And, in the words of one fine lawyer of one very famous person... lol!! Can a husband really rape his wife?? Come on all ye faithful yell!! But, but, my rights... my right to teach little girls to give up their rights. My right to con men and women into giving up their rights in obedience to an invisable, often times seemingly impotent force. Our right to work our way into the govt and force biblical law into civil laws.
Our right to make this a truly christian nation.

a reply to: tanstaafl

So... she wasn't perfectly healthy. She was a carrier.

I am not a carrier. There is a difference.

For the sake of argument..how do you know you're not?

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: tanstaafl
"I am not a carrier. There is a difference."

For the sake of argument..how do you know you're not?

The burden of proof is not on me.

That is the entire point.

Oh...

And when if the day ever comes that you are required to present your vaccine card before you can renew your drivers license, open a bank account or get a credit card, the fact that you have a vaccine card that proves you are up to date on all of your vaccines does not prove that you are not a carrier of anything you are vaccinated against.