Rapture... What about the babies?

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow
...
You concentrate on Bishop Berkeley as though he is the only one who supported Immaterialism , there are so many esoteric masters through out history who teach immaterilism.

I am equally unimpressed (not so easily beguiled) by so-called "esoteric masters" as I am by Bishop Berkeley and his sophisticated blah-blah. Especially when they refer to themselves as "master(s)" (or similar terms with the same connotation or intended effect of trying to impress and beguile; they are not my masters or gurus/spiritual teachers anyway, they are masters of their own folly though).

Matthew 23:8-10 (KJV)

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Matthew 23:8-10 (NW)

But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.

originally posted by: whereislogic
...Vagueness and sophisticated terminology and word usage being efficient tools for marketing.

edit: vagueness concealed and produced by inapplicable sophisticated terminology and word usage.

Hmmm, should I go into details how the vagueness is produced by using such an inapplicable term as "psychosomatic" in connection with the universe, how philosophers try to extend the usage of this term to subjects the word was never initially intended for? Or would that just lead to a distracting debate about applicability rather than me being able to produce further clarification or elaboration as to why I'm talking about some people being vague about what they're actually proposing? Allowing different interpretations that sound more sophisticated than bluntly arguing that physical realities such as our physical universe is just an illusion, a product of our minds, or as asabuvsobelow put it: "the Universe is a ... creation[/product] of the human consciousness". Even though, that's what it* still boils down to, even though consciousness is a broader term than "minds", and it's weird to talk about "human consciousness" as if it's one entity, one causal agent of creation (another little detail that makes it more vague what is actually meant with the claim).

*: the claim, the statement and the latter terminology used by NC, as well as Berkeley's philosophy of immaterialism as defined by Merriam-Webster (but that's less important, cause I was primarily responding to the way you and NC were talking about it, and was just a footnote to justify what I explained before that I was justifying, a bit of background on the notion that physical realities are just illusions, products of our minds, our thoughts, our imaginations and that without those, they would cease to exist or have no existence in the first place, i.e. the definition of an illusion, such as this whole notion, which actually is a product of their minds, and pure fiction/imagination/fantasy, unlike physical realities such as the universe and every physical reality in it which are not illusions nor fantasies nor products/creations of our minds or consciousness).

while we're on the subject of damnation and such, i got a question;

what's the deal with hell, anyway?
like... god created everything, right? so that includes hell, yeah?
And all of the demons in hell?
Do they have any choice about the whole torturing souls for eternity thing?
were they just made that way?
God loves everyone, but he also built a torture chamber full of demons who probably had no say about their lot in life, and if you don't believe the right thing without proof [because proof is bad too, isn't it?] then you'll be sent to this eternal torture chamber and god is really sad about that, he really wishes you made the right choice but rules is rules... and they're the rules he made up, at the beginning.
Am i the only one that feels like the deck is stacked in a really odd way?
Religion tries to frame it like it's this whole Good VS Evil showdown of the century deal but look, it was ALL god, all along

what's with that?

a reply to: continuousThunder
My opinion very bluntly expressed:

it is a scheme to keep control over the creation of reality. Once aware of the mechanism of how things manifest, under the light of maintaining control over this mechanism religions are making perfect sense. In their own twisted way.

NC

a reply to: whereislogic

You are constantly shooting your own leg by quoting Jehovas Witness and going on about propaganda, arent they the ones going from door to door, making propaganda?
But I digress
It is good we live in a world where we have the right to express ourselves freely even if some might feel like it is propaganda, if you don't like it change the channel.

You have only one master? That must be very limiting....
I am my own master and all the other masters are equally to myself, and only by listening to and learning from them i can master my ever-growing path.

I don't pretend to have it all figured, and i really like to ponder new and untraveled path. And as absurd it might sound to you. I have the feeling quantum mechanics is making a strong case for mind over matter.

What exactly do you want to tell us.
That you don't belive in psychosomatics? Or in immaterialism? I think we got that

Anything constructive to add?

originally posted by: whereislogic

originally posted by: asabuvsobelow
...
You concentrate on Bishop Berkeley as though he is the only one who supported Immaterialism , there are so many esoteric masters through out history who teach immaterilism.

I am equally unimpressed (not so easily beguiled) by so-called "esoteric masters" as I am by Bishop Berkeley and his sophisticated blah-blah. Especially when they refer to themselves as "master(s)" (or similar terms with the same connotation or intended effect of trying to impress and beguile; they are not my masters or gurus/spiritual teachers anyway, they are masters of their own folly though).

Matthew 23:8-10 (KJV)

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Matthew 23:8-10 (NW)

But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ.

Thank you for proving my point.

a reply to: NoConspiracy
The only time in my commentary that I even mentioned the word "propaganda" was when I was quoting the title of an article from which I wanted to quote something about those who are merely using “smooth talk and complimentary speech” in order to “seduce the hearts of guileless ones.” (Romans 16:18) Because I said something about being easily beguiled by fancy sophisticated terminology and talk that may sound really clever (possibly making one feel smart if one rolls with it, ending up functioning as an appeal to people's pride and desire to seem intelligent, knowledgeable, sophisticated, openminded to a broad range of sources and ideas, maybe even wise), but actually isn't all that clear what is really meant with it, and when phrased differently, sounds a lot less clever than with all the fancy sophisticated terms and convoluted attempts at producing vagueness and saying things that are more open to different interpretations because of their vagueness.*

And of course, that same title is in my signature, but you're the one going on about propaganda and JW's. Just because I dared to quote something from one of their articles in my opening comment. How openminded and eager you are to ponder new and untraveled paths. I'm not convinced of that since you are demonstrating another attitude. And the paths you prefer are already overcrowded anyway and are not really new and untraveled for and by you. Actually, it seems you've spend a lot of time on the paths in the maze and wilderness of human philosophy so far in your life. You might want to check if you're not going around in circles in an ever-changing maze like in the movie "Cube", unwilling to seriously investigate the path that leads to the way out of the maze of human philosophy, let alone walk it.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Colossians 2:8

Look out that no one takes you captive* [Or “carries you off as his prey.”] by means of the philosophy and empty deception according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;

Knowledge (Greek: gnoʹsis) is put in a very favorable light in the Christian Greek Scriptures. However, not all that men may call “knowledge” is to be sought, because philosophies and views exist that are “falsely called ‘knowledge.’” (1Ti 6:20) That are much better, more honestly and truthfully described as “empty speeches” and “contradictions” in the same verse.

You say you don't pretend to have it all figured out, yet you make one absolute statement about yourself after another, while demonstrating something else than what you are claiming about yourself.

'Know thyself', I don't think you really do at the moment.

*: sidenote or thoughts, not that important (continuing that sentence there where you see the *): ...and later I elaborated that was related to the use of inapplicable terms and inappropiate descriptions. The word "psychosomatic" has nothing to do with "the universe", you might want to google the word one day and see which definition you would like to use for it that supposedly has some relevance to the physical universe we live in; which has nothing to do with whether or not I believe that "psychosomatic" is an appropiate term to describe a real phenomenon in the field of medicine or concerning the relation between human physiology and psychology. Another straw man red herring you asked about at the end of your comment in such a vague manner that I can't answer directly without first going back to how the word was used initially by you when you didn't say "psychosomatics" but "psychosomatic universe". Causing me to respond to that term and not "psychosomatics" in general, whatever it is that you are referring to now with that term. Don't change the subject now, you were talking about a "shared phychosomatic universe", not "psychosomatics"...as a field of study I presume? But then the question becomes weird again, cause to believe or not to believe in a field of study is a bit of a vague concept, I can believe a field of study is a useful endeavor, but just to describe it as 'I believe in psychosomatics' allows for different interpretations again as to what it is I'm actually referring to. Am I then referring to the phenomena described in the study of psychosomatic phenomena concerning the relation between human physiology and psychology or something else? Cause the former is not spelled out correctly if I were to just say, 'I believe in psychosomatics' as an answer to your question about it.

a reply to: Jay-morris

So all babies, and people born with problems like down syndrome, will still go to heaven? So, babies will stay babies forever, and people born with problems like down syndrome will always have these problems in heaven? If not, then they would not be the same person. It's all quite ridiculous!

The need to understand is with all of us. This entire universe will eventually die and be vaporized. When that time comes all life will also die that is alive in and upon this earth as well as all other life in this universe. Then all life that was alive at the time of destruction of this universe will be be vaporized also. Then the spirits of all human life forms that were vaporized will appear before their Creator for rewards or punishments. There are everlasting spirits and spirits that are not everlasting. The human spirit is everlasting and all human spirits in this last gathering of human spirits will be tried and judged.

The unaccountable spirits are the exceptions. All mentally challenged, aborted, neglected and murdered of the unaccountable will be grouped with the unaccountable which are in limbo [bosom of the Creator] will be restored and put on the new earth as flesh and blood. They are given one hundred years to mature from infancy to old age and then must face the same judgment as all other human spirits. You will find this in Isaiah 65 and 66 as well as Revelation 21 and 22. After all have been given life and death then the justified will be allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven and the unjustified perish in the second death. What then?

The unjustified spirit that is judged as unfit is then cast into a realm of separation from the kingdom of heaven and the Creator. This realm of separation is understood as the lake of fire. It is not clear as to what the lake of ethereal fire is. Whether it is a spiritual non consuming fire of sorts we are not told. We can guess but there may be many different aspects to its meaning. We simply do not understand whether consciousness exists in this realm or whether there is a limbo effect of spiritual unconsciousness. We do understand that whatever this lake of fire is or is not, it cannot have an escape and that it is eternal. Some religions insist that there are three divisions of judgment. These are justified, intermediate, and unjustified.

There are some that believe the realm of lake of fire will be a created world of total chaos, disorder, darkness of sorts with eruptions of fire and smoke of brimstone and the king of this realm will be the Satan's of all evils. Of course we have nothing in the biblical accounts to verify any of those speculations

Nevertheless, the child that was unaccountable will be restored, given its chance of eternal life, judged and either rewarded or punished the same as all of the human pro creation must endure. This is the doctrine of Jesus as given to His church of James His brother through the Prophets and Apostles.

Well the baby has to swear absolute loyalty to Jesus.
or go to hell.

a reply to: NoConspiracy

The below text is from Paper 49 of The Urantia Book (www.urantia.org...)


Mortals of the probationary-dependent orders of ascension. The arrival of an Adjuster (spirit of God) constitutes identity in the eyes of the universe, and all indwelt beings are on the roll calls of justice. But temporal life on the evolutionary worlds is uncertain, and many die in youth before choosing the Paradise career. Such Adjuster-indwelt children and youths follow the parent of most advanced spiritual status, thus going to the system finaliter world (the probationary nursery) on the third day, at a special resurrection, or at the regular millennial and dispensational roll calls.

Children who die when too young to have Thought Adjusters are repersonalized on the finaliter world of the local systems concomitant with the arrival of either parent on the mansion worlds. A child acquires physical entity at mortal birth, but in the matter of survival all Adjusterless children are reckoned as still attached to their parents.

In due course Thought Adjusters come to indwell these little ones, while the seraphic ministry to both groups of the probationary-dependent orders of survival is in general similar to that of the more advanced parent or is equivalent to that of the parent in case only one survives. Those attaining the third circle, regardless of the status of their parents, are accorded personal guardians.

a reply to: NoConspiracy

Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible?
Question: "Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible?"

Answer: The concept of the “age of accountability” is that children are not held accountable by God for their sins until they reach a certain age, and that if a child dies before reaching the “age of accountability,” that child will, by the grace and mercy of God, be granted entrance into heaven.
Question: "Will babies and young children be taken in the Rapture?"

Answer: The Bible does not specifically say what will happen to babies, infants, and children when the rapture occurs. This causes many Christians to worry that they will be taken in the rapture, and their young children will be left behind to face the terrible tribulation. Is this possible? No, we do not believe it is. As we explain our viewpoint, please understand that this is, at best, informed speculation. Again, the Bible does not specifically address this issue.

As a background, please read our article on the "age of accountability." It is our view that children who are under the age of accountability will be taken in the rapture. If a child has not reached the point that he/she can make a decision for or against Christ, we would hold that if he/she dies, he/she will be granted entrance into heaven. We also hold that this principle, based entirely on God’s mercy, applies to the rapture. Some propose that only the children of believers will be raptured. We disagree. If a child’s salvation while under the age of accountability is not based on the faith-status of his/her parents, neither is the child’s participation in the deliverance of the rapture. It is our belief, albeit not explicitly taught in Scripture, that all those under the age of accountability will be taken in the rapture.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: schuyler

I suppose after the Rapture, Satan will take over things here on Earth.

Seeing how Satan has run things for the last 10,000 years, maybe its time for Satan, to Rapture all his minions back to hell, or where ever they came from......... Wow, what a thought lol lol lol

The obvious answer is , babies are evil...

The Rapture is mass deaths globally... no one including babies is immune to the Cataclysm that causes these deaths.

All religous Doctrines have clearly taught and warned of this cyclical Cataclysm....they simply taught in controlled manipulated parables.

The Rapture is a very bad thing...that is inevitable....being taught to you in a way that makes you surrender willingly enmasse.

Not everyone can read and accurately interpret the Bible or other major Doctrines....because they were all originally written in parable form....only so-called Autistic people can comfortably understand this type of teaching.

a reply to: NoConspiracy

Good thing we won’t be judging ourselves or others...
It’s been said that accountability is tied to age and intelligence...
Babies will be the closest to the presence of the Lord
As for the questions about other religions
That’s covered also
For those that never knew the Lord 1000 years they will be given to choose...
You want the simplest breakdown?
I’ll give it to you anyway...
You me everyone good or bad in your eyes or mine can’t accomplish enough to earn it...
It’s a gift
All you can do is choose to accept it or not

originally posted by: 5StarOracle
a reply to: NoConspiracy

Good thing we won’t be judging ourselves or others...
It’s been said that accountability is tied to age and intelligence...
Babies will be the closest to the presence of the Lord
As for the questions about other religions
That’s covered also
For those that never knew the Lord 1000 years they will be given to choose...
You want the simplest breakdown?
I’ll give it to you anyway...
You me everyone good or bad in your eyes or mine can’t accomplish enough to earn it...
It’s a gift
All you can do is choose to accept it or not

We Judge Ourselves on a Vibratory Level by proxy of our very Existence.

So when y'all get yo a$$es raptured.............can I have your stuff?

originally posted by: TXRabbit
So when y'all get yo a$$es raptured.............can I have your stuff?

Get in line, bub.

a reply to: schuyler

Think about this. A BILLION Chinese. BILLION Indians. A BILLION Muslims,

Well you with you speaking for billions no wonder their doomed .

a reply to: Blueracer
Yeah I am leaning that way too. The Rapture idea seems to only be mentioned in revelations which use to be interpreted as codes messages warning the churches about Rome and its persecutions of the Christians at the time john was imprisoned before the Middle Ages.
The video was a good lecture series on Historical Setting of the Book of Revelation