International Transgender Day of Visibility

they are then assigned a sex by physicians/parents, which may or may not be appropriate

appropriate by what ? what make a sex appropriate ?

the choice does not change one's sex, and indeed nothing and no one can change sex

If they can only do minor changes that would leave the transgender in about the same place as before , transgender AND dysphoric.
transgenderism is what they are which can make them dysphoric or not , the sex change is for the dysphoria.

based entirely on stereotypes and perceptions

There are gender roles , not gender identity.

impossible for someone with a female body to know how it feels to have a male body, and vice versa

female body isn't a female gender , and if they change that body then they DO know how it feels to have that body.

It is also impossible to assign any personality or character traits exclusively to a male or female body.
And, in fact, virtually any and every personality or character trait there is can no doubt be found in both men and women, and has far more to do with nature and nurture than their physical realities

Precisely. biological sex is independent of gender or gender roles.


So ,
biological sex.
personality character stereotypes gender roles and patriarchy.
dysphoria.
gender identity.

If a person can't get the first as birth , they are transgender , no matter what the rest are.

a reply to: Boadicea

First: Happy anniversary!

As to the technological advancement(s) that overturned the patriarchy you described, reliable chemical birth control was far more a factor than anything else, IMO.

a reply to: dude1

Cher's son Chaz ... someday archeologists will dig up her skeleton and label it female because it is no matter how cosmetically Chaz has worked to look male to all of us now. If you took DNA off a bunch of individuals, including Chaz, and gave it to scientists and asked them to categorize those samples into male and female, Chaz's sample would end up in the female category every single time ... because it is not matter how hard Chaz has tried to cosmetically appear male to all of us.

His biological sex is female. His DNA is female, and his internal characteristics and systems are female no matter how altered he's tried to have them be.

This is the truth for every transgender.

originally posted by: 0zzymand0s
a reply to: Boadicea

First: Happy anniversary!

Thank you! I think we're going to live dangerously and get takeout from Olive Garden... we might actually go take a stroll in the rose gardens at the community college too... we're just living on the edge here! LOL!

As to the technological advancement(s) that overturned the patriarchy you described, reliable chemical birth control was far more a factor than anything else, IMO.

That's a very good point, and one that I really haven't given much thought. We could probably add abortion/Roe v Wade to this as well. Both achieved the same effect in that women were "freed" from the restrictions of pregnancy/motherhood. It might also explain some/much of the animosity from working women towards stay-at-home-mothers in the 80s and 90s. ("I guess I could have stayed home and baked cookies all day".....grrrrrrrrrr!)

Thank you! This is some food for thought and I'll have to ponder it for a bit and figure out how it fits in to my bigger picture...

a reply to: Boadicea

Thank you! I think we're going to live dangerously and get takeout from Olive Garden... we might actually go take a stroll in the rose gardens at the community college too... we're just living on the edge here! LOL!

Rebel rebels! Oh! You pretty things!

Thank you! This is some food for thought and I'll have to ponder it for a bit and figure out how it fits in to my bigger picture...

YW! For what it's worth I am currently going through this first hand as my daughter is dating a person who has suddenly decided to transition and I worry for her and my ex (they are staying with her right now) because they are an ex-addict, seems unstable and often resorts to verbal intimidation to make their point. Ugh, what a mess.

originally posted by: dude1

appropriate by what ? what make a sex appropriate ?

My apologies for not being clear. The very act of assigning a gender in the absence of clear anatomical genitalia, especially when no examination for internal organs has been done. For several reasons the doctor/parent may assign "male" not knowing that the infant has female internal organs, or vice versa. So intersex persons have asserted that it is not appropriate for anyone to assign a sex, but I suppose it's just as true that the sex assigned may not be the appropriate sex. So take it both ways!

If they can only do minor changes that would leave the transgender in about the same place as before , transgender AND dysphoric.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, so my apologies if my response misses the mark. But yes, doctors can only make minor (and mostly cosmetic) changes. The reality is that all the hormones and all the surgeries in the world will not change the female body to male or the male body to female. Especially the latter.

The female body is not random bits and parts just thrown together. The female body and its reproductive system is just that -- a system which comprises many parts which are found throughout the body working together, performing their various functions, to create the whole. With the "whole" being the ability to conceive, gestate, give birth, and provide sustenance for a new life. Slapping breasts on a man's chest doesn't magically turn his male body into a female body. It's just not that simple.

...transgenderism is what they are which can make them dysphoric or not , the sex change is for the dysphoria.

No. Dysphoria is the condition which motivates them to transition, and transgenderism is the end result of their transition. The result of a conscious decision to transition, and deliberate actions to transition.

And it's important to note here that not all transgender persons claim to have dysphoria. In fact, it is only the homosexual transsexuals who claim dysphoria, while the heterosexual autogynephiles claim "euphoria." It is also predominantly homosexual transsexuals who seek full sexual reassignment surgery, while few heterosexual autogynephiles undergo full sexual reassignment surgery. The latter group is more inclined to only get breast implants, but leave their genitalia intact.

...There are gender roles, not gender identity.

Those are weasel words that mean whatever someone wants them to mean... so they mean nothing.

How can anyone "identify" as the opposite sex without defaulting to gender stereotypes? How can someone with an entirely different body and reproductive system "identify" as the other except based upon superficial qualities and subjective stereotypes? What is their frame of reference that allows such insight into another person's existence?

Tell me just one way in which transgender persons can "live as" the opposite sex that is not superficial and based upon a stereotype. Just one.

...female body isn't a female gender...

The female body is tangible, measurable, observable and objective reality. Anyone and everyone can identify a female body. Gender identity is subjective, intangible, immeasurable and unobservable; therefore, gender identity is a belief, not a reality.

It is the body that defines female, not some magical gender essence that a man assigns to women. If gender identity is not based upon physical reality, then it has absolutely nothing to do with physical reality.

...and if they change that body then they DO know how it feels to have that body.

No. They can only make superficial and cosmetic changes. They cannot recreate the female body with its inherent reproductive system.

Precisely. biological sex is independent of gender or gender roles.

Then gender has nothing to do with male and female, and therefore man and woman. So it's nonsense to say biological sex has nothing to do with gender, but then tie gender back to biological sex!!!

a reply to: Boadicea

Be honest though. That hostility goes both ways.

Women who sacrifice home and family for work (or at the very least compromise those things or themselves to their detriment) look down on women who choose to sacrifice or compromise work in favor of hearth and home.

The roots of all of it is that we have those who tell us we should have it all and do it without men. When we discover that we can't, I suspect we secretly feel bad and then lash out at those who chose differently and seem happy with that.

a reply to: 0zzymand0s

For what it's worth I am currently going through this first hand as my daughter is dating a person who has suddenly decided to transition and I worry for her and my ex (they are staying with her right now) because they are an ex-addict, seems unstable and often resorts to verbal intimidation to make their point. Ugh, what a mess.

Oh no... that can't be easy. I wish I had some wonderful words of wisdom for you and your daughter... the best I can say is to be kind but be careful and stay strong. Unfortunately, verbal intimidation often precedes physical abuse in any/all domestic abuse situations. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Your daughter (and you), may want to search and read "Trans Widow" discussions, where women talk about their experiences with husbands/boyfriends who decide to transition. Every woman's story is unique in its own way, of course, but there is much in common as well. Their experiences may help your daughter understand her own experience better, and they may provide her valuable coping strategies or other advice that will serve her well.

Good luck and God bless to you all.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Boadicea

Be honest though. That hostility goes both ways.

Honestly, when I was a stay-at-home-mom, I never saw that hostility reciprocated by other SAHMs to working women. In fact, many of us worked at home. Others looked forward to when their youngest was in school so they could work again, or work more hours. Every SAHM I knew expected to go back to work at some point, so there was no judgment or animosity towards working women.

But there were plenty of times we were quickly dismissed as too lazy and/or too stupid to hold a job. We sat on the sofa watching soap operas and eating bon bons. (I hate bon bons!) For the most part, it was easy to blow them off. Live and let live. But at the time Hillary dismissed us so contemptuously, I myself and most of the SAHM I knew were also busy in their community in one way or another, offering their time and talents for the greater good of the community. Free. A labor of love.

So quite honestly, the world could benefit from more stay-at-home-moms. But I doubt we'd appreciate them.

I don't know why but sometimes I get the feeling that there are groups of people whose sole purpose is to screw things up for EVERYBODY.

a reply to: Boadicea

All good advice. Sadly, my daughter is all in, at least for the moment.

But I work to be kind and keep both eyes peeled, either way.

originally posted by: HarryJoy
I don't know why but sometimes I get the feeling that there are groups of people whose sole purpose is to screw things up for EVERYBODY.

I think it's because if they aren't happy, they resent anyone else who is.

We actually have a large community of trans people in my small town, all but one get on with their lives and people don't bat an eye, it's quite a conservative/religious town too.
I have a trans lady at my gym who's quite open about her past as a male marine, but now she identifies as a woman and she's accepted into the ladies yoga class without a thought, another trans lady is quite shy but she just goes about her business,there are a few more but Ive never really interacted with any of them other than a polite hello

The one spoils it for the rest, seems to have some sort of chip on their shoulder and no matter how much you try to be polite they take it as an insult.
She's walked into my trolley at the supermarket while not looking where she's going an accused me of being trans phone, she accused another old lady of being a trans phone because the lady dared to stand by the cucumbers when the trans woman wanted one.
She's a nasty piece of work who's clearly after attention, victimhood and it doesn't matter her gender I doubt she was any different pre transition.

Unfortunately it's the rather vocal ones that spoil it for the rest, same with any group, you only ever hear about the loud obnoxious feminists not the ones that work tirelessly trying to improve girls and women lives, just the ones who are upset about silly thinga., Same with the trans community same with LGBT groups, the loudest usually overshadow the ones just trying to get by

originally posted by: kerrichin
We actually have a large community of trans people in my small town, all but one get on with their lives and people don't bat an eye, it's quite a conservative/religious town too.....

That doesn't surprise me, because conservative and religious principles follow the live and let live philosophy... but it's good to hear because so many don't.

The one spoils it for the rest, seems to have some sort of chip on their shoulder and no matter how much you try to be polite they take it as an insult... She's a nasty piece of work who's clearly after attention, victimhood and it doesn't matter her gender I doubt she was any different pre transition.

This is where it becomes a problem, when some won't live and let live, and start trouble in various ways. And you're right that it's not about gender. I think it's about comorbidities (i.e., additional multiple mental/emotional disorders) being expressed through their transgender identity.

Unfortunately it's the rather vocal ones that spoil it for the rest, same with any group, you only ever hear about the loud obnoxious feminists not the ones that work tirelessly trying to improve girls and women lives, just the ones who are upset about silly thinga., Same with the trans community same with LGBT groups, the loudest usually overshadow the ones just trying to get by.

That's it exactly.

Unfortunately, that's who's driving Trans Activism and Trans ideology these days. Many under the transgender umbrella have themselves objected to the direction Trans Activism has taken, and the demands Trans Activists have made, and been bullied unmercifully by them. Feminists, and lesbians especially, have likewise been bullied and harassed.

I do believe though that they have overplayed their hand, their voices and power will fade, and the rest of us can find and establish a happy middle ground.

I've been reading some of your replies and you've made a lot of good points. There really are not many if any measurable and objective qualifiers to transgenderism. And yet there are obviously powerful psychological drivers within these people driving them to make the decisions that they do. I mean if we consider the level of ridicule and rejection that would result from these choices then we begin to realize that there is some inexplicable and yet very real cause driving their decisions.

Now in my mind if we consider that humanity is the physical expression of God then we have to believe...that if that God is a singularity...then it must contain both male and female. The other spiritual factor that I see that could be at play is if reincarnation is true and we can come back as either male or female wouldn't the natural path of progression lead to a blend of the two ? a reply to: Boadicea

a reply to: HarryJoy

I like where you are going with this. Like with so many things, the spiritual aspect is absent in the discussion. And in my own personal opinion, I think there is good reason to think the soul or spirit is playing a big part in this. Perhaps even collectively, not just individually. As above, so below, right?

At one time, the Hebrew God was once considered male and female in one; there was also a time when the male God had an equal female Goddess (the Shekinah). One could consider the Holy Spirit of the trinity the feminine divine -- how can we have a father and son and not a mother?

In astrology (and Hermetic philosophy, but I am not quite as familiar with the Hermetic principles), everyone's natal horoscope necessarily has both masculine and feminine energies, because every chart includes every house, planet and sign, and every house, planet and sign is assigned masculine or feminine with one exception: Mercury, Gemini (the Twins!) and the third house, which are androgynous. These energies are not about men or women as persons, but qualities. Masculine projects, feminine receives. Masculine acts, feminine feels. Masculine speaks, feminine listens.

Much the same way natal horoscopes include both masculine and feminine energies, every physical body comprises both male and female qualities -- we both share an "X" chromosome, and we each have male and female hormones, in varying amounts and ratios, etc. None of us is "all" male or "all" female. We are each a unique and special combination thereof.

I truly hope one day we can get past the shallow and superficial nature of the current debate, and explore these issues at a deeper level.

Well thank you for your open-minded view...when you look at bible verses such as the one that speaks of the man and woman becoming one flesh and also of the verse that talks about there is no condemnation to those who walk after the spirit and not after the flesh they actually make more sense within the context of this male-female singularity imo.

a reply to: Boadicea

I also want to add a thank you for bringing up some very good points in your last post. I think eventually all true hearted people will arrive at the truth.....sometimes the things that are so well-established that we don't even question them are the things that we should be questioning the most perhaps.....a reply to: Boadicea

a reply to: HarryJoy

The truth is I should be thanking you for bringing it into the conversation. I'm enjoying the feeling of warm appreciation being able to discuss this from this perspective. And you have both inspired me and motivated me to try to bring it into the conversation myself. I've touched on it before, but not much of a response. Except one poster who has shared hermetic principles, and we've had good conversations. But we need more, and I'm glad you brought it up. So --

Thank YOU!!!