The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Ack, I went abstract, sorry. What I'm meaning to say is because I'd lost weight years ago, it hardly seems real. I can't really remember much about it. God isn't a memory, but an active part of my life right now, so to me He feels more real. As far as getting slapped, it's not a painful punishment type-thing and didn't mean it that way. More of a "hey, wake up" when I started to go through a reeling chain of doubt. It is possible to doubt things actually happened even though they did. It is possible to deny proof even when looking straight at it. A person's mind doesn't want to accept things it's not familiar with. Why this is, I don't know. We can talk more about it depending on how far off the EEG chart you think I am.

Saint, your way off the chart, lol!!!

Actually just returned from a mini vacation in the Smokie Mountains. Truly GOD's country.

I quoted above because of the "Hey wake up" slap in the face. One realizes when that happens things change rapidly in a person's thinking on life, environment, basically everything. It is a nice slap. Doesn't hurt a bit.

Originally posted by saint4God
I've found them to be one in the same and use them interchangably. Search for the truth please...or search for God...you'll end up in the same spot. Some roads are longer than others though, all I'm doing is handing out a map and pointing to the shortcut.

So sure of yourself, thats not very open-minded. The answers are out there to find and I would prefer to find them myself. Not that I don't trust you but there is alot of B.S. out there.

More of a "hey, wake up" when I started to go through a reeling chain of doubt.

All of your examples seem to have the factor that you were unaware that things were hapening around you. What exactly was the slap? When did the doubt stop?

That's scientifically open-minded. How low does that number have to be before it's considered totally whacked? How can we say anything is probability 0?

I assume by "whacked" you mean totally implausible, and I would say the answer is in itself. Nothing's impossible only implausible.

I'm a skeptic myself, so no I'm not surprised. In fact, I've been asked to immerse myself among them. Peeps like me, I love you all.

Always be skeptical of everything. A quote I like from someones sig:
Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see.

Ah but there was...and is. There's also a way of shutting it out.

That makes me feel as if I am doing something wrong, but there is nothing I can do to fix it. No matter how hard I listen, if theres is nothing to hear, theres nothing to hear.

If I believed there was no God, then I believe we would have no purpose for dying. Some of us naturally know that one of the main reasons we are here to love and help one another. I am not one of those people. I had to be taught. Why yes, I do feel dense to be missing that otherwise obvious point, but glad I know now and know there are many many people who have yet to learn it.

I've had ups and downs like everyone, though my downs before God were lethal. My ups were a temporary smile. After knowing God, downs are not lethal and ups fill most of my time. What used to satisfy me is just the first rung in a ladder.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Saint, your way off the chart, lol!!!

Hehee. I'll take that as a compliment.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Actually just returned from a mini vacation in the Smokie Mountains. Truly GOD's country.

Awesome. I need to get out more...and that's not too far of a trip for me.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
I quoted above because of the "Hey wake up" slap in the face. One realizes when that happens things change rapidly in a person's thinking on life, environment, basically everything. It is a nice slap. Doesn't hurt a bit.

Exactly! I guess these days we don't nudge our friends when they're about to do something wrong...perhaps we should take it as an example.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
So sure of yourself, thats not very open-minded.

Alright alright, that was a bold statement to make. True, but bold. I can see how it looks from your end and again understand what that looks like having travelled down that road. Seek truth yes. Just please don't stop seeking until you have the answer.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
The answers are out there to find and I would prefer to find them myself. Not that I don't trust you but there is alot of B.S. out there.

That's cool and you absolutely have to find out for yourself. I can't make you believe nor would want to. It's up to you, just trying to help. Yes, there is a lot of B.S. out there, but it's also hard to extend a hand with your guard up all the time.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
All of your examples seem to have the factor that you were unaware that things were hapening around you. What exactly was the slap? When did the doubt stop?

I know I'm not going to be able to explain this to any great degree of accuracy so madman, if you or anyone can give me a 'bump' to help convey what I'm trying to say then by all means I'd appreciate it. When God speaks, it doesn't go through the ear like sound. Rather it infuses straight to the brain. A lot of times I repeat it over and over again if having difficulty figuring it out. No, it's not a psychotic episode, I have no medical conditions, I'm not schizophrenic (not that it makes any difference if you've ever known anyone who was), no multiple personalities, history of child abuse, physical abuse, mental abuse, do I really need to go on? Okay, anyhow, the times when I think God can be heard best is quiet contemplation, wondering, stopping to think, relaxing or prayer. Our heads generate a lot of noise doing daily tasks which is fine and perfectly normal, though we need to take time out. That's where the origin of the sabbath comes from (Hebrews 4). Now extend that sabbath throughout the week, making the thoughts and talks with and about God each and every day. That opens the channel. I've spoken to God for a decade and a half, but hadn't heard back directly. Some indirect stuff now and then, but there was a lot of noise I needed to get rid of. A lot of "me me me" thinking and not Him and everyone else in the world. When I was able to let of go "me" so much, it improved my reception.

What was specifically said? This time is was during prayer and candidly was the first time I had been interrupted by Him during a prayer. Usually prayers are one-way, but that's why He's God and I'm not.

Me: "I pray that I can give (someone here on ATS) the right instruction..."
Interrupt: "it is My Word, how can it not be right instruction?"

Just one example. Why was it a slap? I needed to stick to His words and His thoughts as I knew them and not speak on my personal opinion. Why was it a lift? The reassurance that my footing will not fault if I move ahead with Him. Needless to say, after that interrupt I went stone-silent. Listening for more first, then after a period of silence, repeating it to myself to try to get full understanding of what it meant. Again, when you let go and stop trying so hard to analyze word for word, meaning for meaning, it comes through crystal clear.

Does this make me uncomfortable talking about it? Yes. I know there are whispers "pssst, saint4God is a loon who thinks can talk directly with God. Hehe, like some kind of special power or something. *snicker snicker*" Well, you know what? There is no special power involved, just a willingness to receive, that's it. No, I'm not a loon and cannot 'prove' that I'm not but something else I know is when I'm asked for the truth I'm obligated to give it despite consequences. Each and every time though it's been worth any consequence and you've been searching for the truth a long time. It's about time someone is willing to unconditionally give it to you because that is love..and that's exactly the message God wants us to get.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
I assume by "whacked" you mean totally implausible, and I would say the answer is in itself. Nothing's impossible only implausible.

Excellent. God agrees with you (Matthew 19:26). Are you ready for the implausible?

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Always be skeptical of everything. A quote I like from someones sig:
Don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see.

I like that. Another that I like was from my High School chem. teacher. Though he may or may not have meant it the way I took it, I still think it's outstanding - "What you cannot see is real".

That makes me feel as if I am doing something wrong, but there is nothing I can do to fix it. No matter how hard I listen, if theres is nothing to hear, theres nothing to hear.

Sorry, wasn't meant to say you're intentionally doing something wrong. Reflection. Mirror. Are you able to see yourself and the things that are good and the things that are not good? The noise it's just physical, there's a lot of emotional and mental noise too. I'm not saying if you shut yourself in a closet you'll start to hear God. There's a lot of house cleaning to do up in one's head. I still have more to go as it's a continual process. Can God boom through no matter what? Certainly. Will he? It's not probable because He wants us to take the first step to get back with Him. Have you ever offended someone without knowing it? I have. We have.

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Even if God doesn't exist it wouldn't change your attitude. It's like a doctor giving sugar pills to a patient and saying they are medicine. If the pateint thinks they are getting better, they will get better. Just like what I said in my U2U about mind over matter. Maybe that is good though, you "finding God". It's not my place to say who is right or wrong, just that until the truth comes out, it has done you good.

Mind over matter only goes so far. How many push-ups can you do? Why can't I do 1,000 if I'm determined to never fail? The mind can be subdued by itself. Pain will over-ride your determinism and you collapse onto the floor a heaping mess. Why do soldiers fear death even after they've been trained not to, conditioned day after day to be ready to die for liberty and country? Because the brain knows the difference between reality and head games.

Sugar pills will not cure cancer, else we'd all be happily wallowing in ignorance without pain or death as a result.

All I've said here is not me. I've talked nothing about my family, my hobbies, my interests, my ambitions, my anything. If what I'm saying needs to be checked, then by all means check. Bump it up against any resource that also knows God as represented by the Old Testament and Jesus, be it biblical, someone here who knows God, someone elsewhere, or God Himself. Skepticism is a great defense mechanism, but when He approaches you saying He is all that is good, embodying faith, hope and love, then what is there to guard against?

Pray, train, study,
God bless.


[edit on 12-7-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Because the brain knows the difference between reality and head games.

That's what believers call "doubt". When you quit playing the head games, you cease to have doubt, because you no longer claim knowledge you don't have.

comes from the fear of being wrong whether justified or not (whether you're a believer or not). You can doubt things that actually happened, things that are happening, things you see, things you do, things you hear, and/or things that are fact. It's a self-defense mechanism that says "are you suuuure?". Is this good or bad? Well, both. It's good because it forces your mind to look before you leap and ensure when you make a decision that it's a sound decision. When a parent or friend says the roller-coaster is safe, you have no proof that when you get on it you won't die. Still, after doubt, check and re-check, you get the assurance you need to take that step on-board. The reward is a thrilling fun ride, one like any other. You step off with a sense of elation wanting to do it again. Again, no proof you won't die the next time you get on...

Doubt can be bad if it causes you not to trust when you need to. If an EMT shows up at a heart attack victim and doubts her/his defibrillator will work and tosses it aside or worse, doubts s/he can do anything to save the dying person, then s/he's not properly equipt to respond to an emergency or save the lives of others.

Doubt is the opposite of trust.

Main Entry: 1doubt
Function: verb
3 a : to lack confidence in : DISTRUST
www.m-w.com...

My thoughts on doubt. I'd like to hear others too. It's an interesting topic in itself.


[edit on 12-7-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
My thoughts on doubt. I'd like to hear others too. It's an interesting topic in itself.

Doubt is an assessment of probability. It's a subconscious recognition that you don't know something.

So when someone claims "I know god is real" and simultaneously has doubts, they are attempting to fool themselves and lie to others. If they wish to be honest, they should phrase it as "I think god is real" or something similar that indicates that their position is a best guess.

I know gravity works. I have no doubt about it even though I can't prove that it will work 5 minutes from now. The possibility that it will not work never enters my mind. I assess the probability of the failure of gravity at 0.

I believe it will not rain tomorrow. The forcast doesn't call for it. But I don't know that it won't. There have been numerous times when it rained in spite of the forcast. The supposition that it won't rain is not knowledge, but just an assessment of likelihood.

Suppose it could be proven that the universe was created. I might use the anthropic principle to conclude that the creator was intelligent and designed the universe to support life. But I wouldn't know that, because there are other possible scenarios that do not involve an intelligent creator, or an intelligent creator that just stumbled across this combination, etc. So while I might think "god" is the best explanation, I still can not rightfully claim knowledge of that, nor can I make any attempt to assess such probabilities. The assessment would just be intuition, and I must recognize it could easily be wrong.

This is the difference between knowledge and belief in general is that knowledge involves an absolute assessment, or in some cases (such as axioms of logic), an inability to even comprehend what it means for that knowledge not to be actual.

I know I'm not going to be able to explain this to any great degree of accuracy so madman, if you or anyone can give me a 'bump' to help convey what I'm trying to say then by all means I'd appreciate it. When God speaks, it doesn't go through the ear like sound. Rather it infuses straight to the brain.

Like saint has stated. The "wake up call" that GOD gives heads straight to the brain. I am not a "religious" fellow. Spiritual, yes. Once GOD gives one this "wake up call" one really begins to look at life in a much different light. No longer a FEAR of death or anything for that matter for one realizes that in the end it all "comes out in the wash".

One begins to look at others differently. Tries to understand their problems and becomes a lot less judgemental. Inner peace and contentment take over, however I won't say the pressure of everyday life goes away. Just makes it a lot easier to comprehend.

In today's fast paced world(at least in the US) I step back and ask many what their hurry is. Where are they in such a hurry to go? The true answer is really nowhere. For we are where we are supposed to be.

How did I do saint? Terrible I'm sure for it is so hard to convey. However, I will say that once one truly realizes there is a GOD all doubt about such goes away. This creates a "power" within one's self that can't be described.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater

How did I do saint?

Like a champ madman, well done well done.

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Terrible I'm sure for

You're too critical of yourself. That's the kind of doubt I'm talking about!

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
it is so hard to convey. However, I will say that once one truly realizes there is a GOD all doubt about such goes away. This creates a "power" within one's self that can't be described.

Right. The doubt isn't in God, the doubt is in myself because I've messed up things in the past. God says "Hey! You may be imperfect but I'm not...now let's get back to work". So do I do what my boss says or continue daydreaming about my lack of capabilities? The rollercoaster works, need to trust it to get on board and enjoy the ride. The defibrillator works, I need to use it to save lives.

[edit on 12-7-2005 by saint4God]

[edit on 12-7-2005 by saint4God]

Doubt is an assessment of probability. It's a subconscious recognition that you don't know something.

Yes, true. However, when one KNOWS there is a GOD it becomes a whole new ball game. Then what happens is others ask for proof. One can't "conjur" up GOD to shake someone's hand, and therefore people live in FEAR for they cannot accept the fact.

Any who read my writings have seen me write that the proof is all around. One sitting, standing, or whatever is an absolute miracle in itself. We are 70% water yet are able to walk, talk, stand, THINK, etc. Our "home" is an illusion like us and the rest of the universe within this dimension.

Look in the mirror and try to understand that who and what you are. Next time while watching "The Discovery Channel" and they have a surgery on it try to comprehend how that mass of "yuck" is able to think. How it all works together. How it is all an illusion.

GOD has given us everything we need to succeed right here. Cure hunger, poverty, avert war, etc. However, most don't understand, don't want to understand, that we as the species man/woman are capable of so many things when we all work together. Instead we pollute our planet, cut down the cure for cancer so someone can have a cheap desk, and live in a world sparked by greed. We all race to buy more toys to make us content, and be happy. Yet, relatively few are. Why?

Originally posted by madmanacrosswater
Yes, true. However, when one KNOWS there is a GOD it becomes a whole new ball game.

Whoever has doubt doesn't KNOW. That's pretty much the whole point I was trying to make. It has nothing to do with the ability to prove it to someone else. Your doubt is the proof that you don't fully believe, which is the same as saying you don't know.

Originally posted by saint4God
I've spoken to God for a decade and a half, but hadn't heard back directly.

If you have never heard him directly then your faith is in man not God.

Originally posted by saint4God
What was specifically said? This time is was during prayer and candidly was the first time I had been interrupted by Him during a prayer. Usually prayers are one-way, but that's why He's God and I'm not.

Me: "I pray that I can give (someone here on ATS) the right instruction..."
Interrupt: "it is My Word, how can it not be right instruction?"

If its not his word then it is not the right Instruction. "God" could be aliens, "God" could be the Devil, "God" could not even exist. He himself warns of false prophets. If we found alien life that was just blooming, and we said " We are your creators" How would they know the difference?

Originally posted by saint4God
Excellent. God agrees with you (Matthew 19:26). Are you ready for the implausible?

But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Sorry but that's not exactly what I meant. Look at all the things we thought were impossible just 100 years ago. With our better understanding of the universe, comes our better utilization of our surroundings. If you believe it, you can achieve it.

Originally posted by saint4God
Sorry, wasn't meant to say you're intentionally doing something wrong. Reflection. Mirror. Are you able to see yourself and the things that are good and the things that are not good? The noise it's just physical, there's a lot of emotional and mental noise too. I'm not saying if you shut yourself in a closet you'll start to hear God. There's a lot of house cleaning to do up in one's head. I still have more to go as it's a continual process. Can God boom through no matter what? Certainly. Will he? It's not probable because He wants us to take the first step to get back with Him. Have you ever offended someone without knowing it? I have. We have.

I don't understand how you "know" he wants me to make the first move. It would seem more logical for him to contact me, but I guess thats my logic not his. That's always very convient. Whenever there's a problerm,"Well he's God, he(she/it) can do whatever he wants, and were not expected to undertand him. ".

Originally posted by saint4God
Mind over matter only goes so far. How many push-ups can you do? Why can't I do 1,000 if I'm determined to never fail? The mind can be subdued by itself. Pain will over-ride your determinism and you collapse onto the floor a heaping mess. Why do soldiers fear death even after they've been trained not to, conditioned day after day to be ready to die for liberty and country? Because the brain knows the difference between reality and head games.

Have you ever heard of a woman lifting up car to save her child from certain death? I don't have a link but supposedly that's where Jack Kirby got the idea for The Hulk. If we are that determined to do something I think we can do amazing things.

Originally posted by saint4God
All I've said here is not me. I've talked nothing about my family, my hobbies, my interests, my ambitions, my anything. If what I'm saying needs to be checked, then by all means check. Bump it up against any resource that also knows God as represented by the Old Testament and Jesus, be it biblical, someone here who knows God, someone elsewhere, or God Himself. Skepticism is a great defense mechanism, but when He approaches you saying He is all that is good, embodying faith, hope and love, then what is there to guard against?

"He" is not saying anything, man is. If God came along one day and said " Hey Charlie Murphy, Stay here, and have faith that I will be right back". Then I would have faith in God and listen to my creator. BUT there has never been any direct communication, and therefore all faith is faith in man, not God.

[edit on 13-7-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Have you ever heard of a woman lifting up car to save her child from certain death?

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread here, but that may have been my grandmother.

I don't expect people to believe this, but when my father was a child, he had his toddler brother riding in his lap, and the window was open. My uncle jumped out the window and the car ran over him. According to my dad, my grandmother stopped immediately (the car wasn't going fast yet), and lifted the car off my uncle. Unfortunately, he died.

It's hard to imagine there are too many cases like this, and I've always wondered if that story was actually based on my own family history.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
Have you ever heard of a woman lifting up car to save her child from certain death?

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread here, but that may have been my grandmother.

I don't expect people to believe this, but when my father was a child, he had his toddler brother riding in his lap, and the window was open. My uncle jumped out the window and the car ran over him. According to my dad, my grandmother stopped immediately (the car wasn't going fast yet), and lifted the car off my uncle. Unfortunately, he died.

It's hard to imagine there are too many cases like this, and I've always wondered if that story was actually based on my own family history.

There's a lot of cases where this has happened. First, it goes to show that humanity has not nearly tapped its physical potential, and that the love of a mother will allow them to do things that normally their minds would say is impossible. Strength is a funny thing, some really scrawny people can out lift/arm wrestle/etc. people with a lot of bulk while other cannot. I've noticed that people with ADD tend to be able to tap into more strength than others, interstingly enough. I'm one of them ADD sufferers, and I get comments all the time about me being a lot stronger than I look. I also got into a lot of fights in gradeschool and junior high because I was a complete nerd, but one who wouldn't back down to a bully (I know, judging by how timid I am here on ATS, that shocks you ). Yet the strongest, most difficult person I have ever had to incapacitate was when I was 19 and a 13 year old with ADD and Tourettes syndrome completely lost it and was going to stab my mom with a knife. There was more power in those little arms and legs than there was in any football player I had to fight growing up.

Heh, that's what we call a sidetrack. ADD

As to hijacking the thread, I started it and it was hijacked a long time ago, and I'm glad it was. This conversation has been really interesting to read through, and I'm looking forward to continuing to do so. May even comment here and there if something comes to mind

We also have Jesus being born in a fictional city (Nazareth did not exist in the first century). Literary characters with fictional histories are generally fictional.

Here's what I found at inisrael.com, an israeli tourism site.

Nazareth History

The Importance of Nazareth in the Christian Tradition

Nazareth was a small and insignificant village during the period of Jesus. While the site was settled during the period 600-900 BCE, it was too small to be included in the list of settlements of the tribe of Zebulon (Joshua 19:10-16), which mentions twelve towns and six villages. Nazareth is not included among the 45 cities of the Galilee that were mentioned by Josephus, and her name is missing from the 63 towns in Galilee mentioned in the Talmud.It seems that the words of Nathanel of Cana, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" (John 1:47) characterized the site's seeming insignificance. It is needless to say that the people of Judea had never heard of Nazareth.
And from this we understand the reason that Pontius Pilate decorates the cross with the sign "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" (John 19:19) - meaning that the "King of the Jews" is from "nowhere." The early name "Nazarenes" given to the Christians might have been a derogatory nickname that the people of Judea gave to the followers of Jesus (Matthew 26:71, Acts 6:38). Jesus was known throughout the Galilee as "Jesus of Nazareth" (Matthew 21:11 , Mark 14:67) - but for those not from the Galilee, this name had no meaning for them. In order to explain where Nazareth was located, the Galileans had to explain that the village was near Gat-Hyefer (Jonah's hometown,Kings II 14:25), which could be seen from Nazareth. Archeological excavations conducted in Nazareth (by Bagati since 1955) show that Nazareth was a small agricultural village settled by a few dozen families.
The pottery remains testify to a continuous settlement during the period 600-900 BCE. After those years, there was a break in settlement until the year 200 BCE.

Since then, the site of Nazareth has been consistently inhabited. Most of the archeological finds consist of caves, cisterns and grain storage bins. The agricultural character of the site is made obvious with the discoveries of oil mills and mill stones. There were a large number of underground rooms because the soft chalk of Nazareth made it easy to hew caves.
Nazareth is located between the open space of the Jezreel valley and the mountainous regions of the Galilee. The valley and its history were well known to the Jews of Nazareth in the time of Jesus.During the first 20 years of his life that he spent in Nazareth, Jesus had many an opportunity to walk on the mountain ranges, to look over and think about the history of his people. The great battles that had taken place in the valley, together with the great hopes that were dashed with their losses, must have affected and shaped his view on life. The valley of Jezreel, as it is seen from Nazareth, is a natural battlefield. This fact must have influenced the idea of "...all the holders of swords shall fall by the sword," (Matthew 28:52). Another geographical area adjacent to Nazareth was the lower Galilee and the Beti Netofa valley.

In this region there were many small Jewish villages and towns settled by Hellenized Syrians. The largest of these towns was Tzippori, the capital of the Galilee until the year 18 BCE. Even though Tzippori is a 45- minute-walk from Nazareth, the town is not mentioned in the New Testament. The main events in Jesus's life, as described in the New Testament, are the annunciation of his birth (Luke 1:26-38),his childhood and early manhood (Luke 2:39-52, Matthew 2:19-23), and the clash with his fellow citizens (Matthew 13:54-58, Luke 4:17-30). From the very first events relating to the life of Jesus in Nazareth, we learn that the people of his village did not approve of his thinking and behavior. To them he was Jesus, one of the sons of Joseph the carpenter (the other brothers were James, Joseph, Simeon and Judah - Matthew 13:55). Luke describes with great drama how Jesus was rejected by the people of Nazareth. After his sermon in the synagogue aroused their anger, the people took him "and brought him to the precipice of the mountain that their city was built upon" (Luke 4). Some have pointed out that this sentence in Luke is not correct, as Nazareth is built in a valley and not on a mountain. But the valley of Nazareth is on a mountain overlooking the Jezreel valley - and the mountain of the precipice overlooks the valley of Nazaret and the valley of Jezreel.

Nazareth is also holy to Christians because it throws light on the holy family, especially Mary, the mother of Jesus. This is the place where a Christian believer can consider Mary's qualities. Her character as a noble woman, a woman of purity, simplicity, sensitivity and pureness of heart. Mary is portrayed as a mother who devotes herself to the education of her son and remains devoted to him in the most trying of circumstances (she was present at his crucifixation - John 19:25 - and recognized him as the messiah - Acts 2:36). For Catholics, Mary has a special significance - and her special place in the New Testament is hinted at in the verses"Blessed art though of women" (Luke1:41) and "Peace unto thee woman of grace, God be with you" (Luke 1:28).

As for everything that occured at the crucifixion, it's possible that one of these volcanies went off. that might explain the three days of darkness. The earthquake might have been just exactly that...an earthquake. But who knows.



[edit on 13-7-2005 by Toelint]

[edit on 13-7-2005 by Toelint]

I have been following this thread for a while now. Great conversation going on. Up to this point, I have been able to stay out of it, but this quote really jumped off the page at me.

I don't understand how you "know" he wants me to make the first move. It would seem more logical for him to contact me, but I guess thats my logic not his. That's always very convient. Whenever there's a problerm,"Well he's God, he(she/it) can do whatever he wants, and were not expected to undertand him. ".

God did make the first move. When Adam sinned, God sacrificed a lamb and clothed him and eve because they were no longer clothed in Gods glory. God also promised them a savior right there.
God sent Jesus, and said you can be forgiven.....free of charge.

The reason we can KNOW that the next move is now yours, is because of what I just said. God made the first move, and took the first action.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

If your like me and don't like first moves, not with girls or deity's(much similarities between the 2 it seems :p especialy in the wraith and acting unreasonable departments) skip the first move thing and just challenge your prefered deity to come before you and show himself. I go a step further and tell the mofo's to show themself and try to take me if they can. Guess what, none ever did and I'm pritty sure none ever will show themselves, to anyone.(except when their stoned or in need of serious psychiatric care)

Organized religion in all the forms and flavors we've seen over the evolution of human civilization, imho comes from either 1 of 2 things.

1 being the feeble minded need of weak human beings to be saved and led because their to damn lazy and rather act to damn ignorant to take their lives into their own hands, so they let some smucks make up some fancy story's to dictate their lives. This is a recuring thing, each and every time in mans history, when the average Joe was feeling down because life was crappy or booring, religion became stronger. These days, humans are stressed, misserable, fat, unhappy and don't even know how to stand up for themselves anymore. "Oh what would the others think of me if I spoke up".

So what you see now once more, organized religion dictating people's lives more, stronger and more moraly depraved then ever. Its ok to kill everything and everyone who stands in our way while spreading our view of things, this works both for muslims and christians these days.
Heck, some church leaders even dictate who their people should vote for.

2 would be aliens or other beings that, just like the humans that started religions and still do up to this date, posing as gods or holy men.

There is no doubt in my mind that life outside of earth exists, but untill more evidence shows they are activly involved in our history and still are. I think the number 1 reason for religion is the most common and likely.

Sorry if I stepped on anyones toes, but thats how I see it.

Especialy the moraly depraved part, that is getting on my nerves so bad.
Worst about it is that the religious factions also act asif they are the only ones with morals, as often said, the moral police, moral nazi's and son on, yet they are the most moraly depraved sickopaths around.
Preaching to leave all reason at the door, sayng its ok to kill, maim, desecrate and torture the living daylights out of all the people not of their faith.

Organized religion makes me sick.

The way religion should be experienced imho, if needed at all, would be between 1 person and their deity. No organization, scriptures or leadership involved. Just this 1 soul with his believed maker. No words or scriptures, just emotions and thoughts.

Your doubt is the proof that you don't fully believe, which is the same as saying you don't know.

That is exactly my point. I have NO DOUBT about the existence of GOD. No "belief" or "faith" to it. One may not believe if they have no belief in ones self.

Originally posted by thematrix
If your like me and don't like first moves, not with girls or deity's(much similarities between the 2 it seems :p especialy in the wraith and acting unreasonable departments) skip the first move thing and just challenge your prefered deity to come before you and show himself. I go a step further and tell the mofo's to show themself and try to take me if they can.
Guess what, none ever did and I'm pritty sure none ever will show themselves, to anyone.(except when their stoned or in need of serious psychiatric care)

That's interesting. When I did, one showed up. It was stupidly dangerous thing for me to do. Hm, I'd like to see if I can find out why, would you be willing to U2U me? I'll also work to see if I can help with that proof.

Originally posted by Toelint
Nazareth was a small and insignificant village during the period of Jesus.

You need go no further than this. Nazareth had a synagogue according to Luke 4. No town large enough to have a synagogue could be too small to have been noticed. Not only did it have a synagogue, but within a small unrecorded Hamlett, everyone in the town would have been family/neighbors of Jesus' family and would have known of the miracles associated with his conception and birth. Why then would they be surprised and outraged later on?

Not only that, but Luke 4 also indicates that the city of Nazareth was built on the precipice of a mountain, whereas the modern city of Nazareth lies in a depression among rolling hills, proving that the modern city of Nazareth is not the Biblical Nazareth. There are no cliffs that the "multitude" (this is a small insignificant settlement right? where did this "multitude" come from I wonder) could have threatened to throw Jesus from.

Further, no-one knew where the city of Nazareth was until it was "discovered" in the 4th century CE. Apparently, early Christians never thought about setting up a church in Jesus' home town or even considered adding it to the pilgrimage trail (the Itinerarium Burdigalence).

One last point regarding Nazareth, Matthew 2:23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."

Note that there is no such prophecy anywhere in the Jewish scriptures referred to as 'the prophets' (aka the Old Testament excluding the first 5 books). This whole Nazareth business was a transliteration error to begin with. The actual prophecy referenced is that the Messiah would be a Nazarite (one devoted to god), not a Nazarene (a heretical Jewish sect at the end of the first century), nor a Nazorean (a person from Nazareth).

Originally posted by Toelint
As for everything that occured at the crucifixion, it's possible that one of these volcanies went off. that might explain the three days of darkness. The earthquake might have been just exactly that...an earthquake. But who knows.

Neglecting the fact that this is the purest of speculation presented without a shred of evidence, the cause is irrelevant anyway. The salient point is that no-one recorded these events outside the Bible, and there were plenty of historians at the time.

More importantly even than the darkness, earthquakes, tearing of the veil in the Temple (which most defnitely would have been recorded even if earthquakes and days of darkness were commonplace at the time), is the dead who were raised and wandered about Jarusalem and were seen by many. Don't you think zombies seen by many walking around the holy city is a noteworthy event?

[edit on 13-7-2005 by spamandham]