I don't get it.

a reply to: Edumakated

You’re being mean now. You can easily google the differences. Let’s get back on topic.

👍. Like I said over 300 people died in a day in Italy last week from corona. People are scared of what the virus can do that is the difference. Like it or not.

a reply to: Edumakated

Rate of infection. But I recall H1N1, and I recall some places did have to set up inflatable triage tents outside the hospitals. Still, it never got beyond critical mass.

This can, very easily. We see it in Italy and Iran. We saw it in Wuhan.

If that doesn't happen, then you're right ... it won't be different than H1N1 for all practical intents and purposes, and we will be here debating whether or not the cure (the measures we're taking now) ended up being worse than the disease.

The 50,000 or so flu deaths in the USA is again an estimate. Nothing remotely close to that has ever been confirmed outside of the Spanish flu. This is a conspiracy website right? CDC estimates are crap.

During the 2009 pandemic California recorded 657 deaths. The next worst were Texas and Florida with 231 and 230.


Now compare that to this report from California in Feb 2019.

www.sacbee.com...

Here are some relevant sections:

The flu death toll rose to 207 in California during the week ending Feb. 9, according to the latest report from the state Department of Public Health. In the same period a year ago, the number of flu-related deaths stood at 185.

Last year’s flu season was considered one of the worst in 10 years. Roughly 329 death certificates listed flu as the cause of death in the season ending Aug. 18. Public health officials say the actual number of deaths related to influenza is far greater than what is reported.

a reply to: Edumakated

It's great to see someone think with reason and logic. Makes NO SENSE! I've been looking into the Astrological chart of the US and that part of it does make sense. I am trying to understand whats hidden and unknown. Here below is some of my reasoning about what is going on.

Flu kills about 50, 000 in the US alone each season and its gotten worse since 2016 when Verizon began testing the 5G. Maybe instead of saying the vaccine didn't work, sorry it's not reliable they are blaming it on something "without a vaccine". Trial testing begins Monday which is awful quick to have already made a vaccine!

Maybe this massive infrastructure of 5G is going to be installed quick to beat china? Maybe this quick installation is causing all these virus like symptoms?
Are we in a tech war? What is REALLLLLLLY going on?
I think about the baby boomers and health care and then I think how healthcare and pretty much all of our systems need a reset anyway so I'm not unhappy to see changes coming I just wish we could snap our fingers and have a future that can sustain itself and be in harmony with ALL of the natural organisms on earth including us.

Something else to consider is all the elderly in Italy and how their immune systems react to the higher frequencies.. is too much on their cells?

Italian operators kicked off commercial 5G offerings in parts of the country’s main cities during the second half of 2019 and have already announced plans to rapidly expand coverage during 2020.

Vodafone was the first operator to offer commercial 5G services in Italy. The telco, owned by UK telecommunications group Vodafone Group, launched the technology in five cities across the country in June 2019.

Initially, the 5G service was available in Milan, Turin, Bologna, Rome and Naples. The company used equipment from Nokia and Huawei for the deployment of commercial 5G.

www.rcrwireless.com...

I can see it now, radiation detectors will be sold and installed in front of all public places who offer it and will show the actual levels. They will always make money off debilitating us.

a reply to: dainfamusgc

States, like mine, have ordered dentists to close their doors except for emergency cases. My sister is a dentist and she says emergency cases make up a very small portion of her office income and she won't last long having to shut down. If they close, I am sure there will be many others, too. If my sister can't afford to reopen and has to let her staff go, 16 families will be out half or all of their income, too.

Same with doctors that primarily perform elective surgery.

I get that we need to isolate to flatten the curve, what I don't get is why the state gives doctors and dentists licenses to practice but suddenly don't believe they are capable of protecting their patients, themselves, and their staff.My kid's orthodontist texted me they are having patients wait in the cars in the parking lot until the office texts when the chair is open and they would be having only one patient in the office at any given time.

My sister had nearly the same policy for her patients.

If dentists have to close their offices permanently, en masse...there won't be enough dentists left practicing for emergency care or otherwise...and the vast majority of people requiring dental care may not be able to afford it the way things are going. Dental care is already beyond the means of many.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

What I think we're seeing in some states is the tendency of control freaks to take over though.

I think the basic strategy is sound, but some places are going too far.

originally posted by: Crosswinds
And one more question to add to my OP thoughts:
What happens if it DOESN'T go away for quite some time? Say, the vaccine takes a long time, etc.
How will the healthcare systems globally deal with it?

There are a lot of what ifs and hows. It seems this virus has far greater implications than its actual physical effects indeed.

Bring the thought to its logical end; what if there are never any mitigating remedies for this Virus and it keeps coming back every season?

The answer is that becomes the "new normal" and life goes on after everyone gets use to it. Yes more people will die every year than is currently normal but that should not stop the world from going round.

Thanks for all the responses and thought. I appreciate it everyone.
So the general consensus is:
COVID-19 is extremely bad because of its extreme infection rate, the potential to overload healthcare systems due to large numbers of required hospitalizations, and the media causing panic.
But it's not the symptoms themselves which are that bad for the majority. That's what I was wondering mostly is if it was the numbers or the symptoms.
So it's definitely the numbers that make it so, so bad.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

States, like mine, have ordered dentists to close their doors except for emergency cases. My sister is a dentist and she says emergency cases make up a very small portion of her office income and she won't last long having to shut down. If they close, I am sure there will be many others, too. If my sister can't afford to reopen and has to let her staff go, 16 families will be out half or all of their income, too.

This is what's truly ironic, people are claiming if we didn't react in this crazy way then hospitals would be overloaded, yet we have hospitals saying they are delaying surgeries and other procedures. One ATS member just made a thread about how their friend with cancer had her procedure delayed. They also just announced the same thing in Australia, I think they said all elective surgeries will be delayed. I recently had a family member with cancer have elective surgery last month to remove it, if the surgery had of been this month it would have been delayed and there's a high probability it would have spread and become inoperable because it was already on the verge of being inoperable.

Furthermore, Italy has the second oldest population in the world and the average age of Covid-19 victims is 80. To use Italy as an example of what could happen in the US is a totally bogus comparison. People are saying "just Google what happened in Italy", well I just did and that's how I found out these facts about Italy. The first article at the top of the results says the vast majority of people who died in Italy from Covid-19 also had underlying health issues such as heart disease and cancer. Regardless of how hard people try to justify this absurd global panic, it simply cannot be justified unless there's something we aren't being told, and at this point the evidence is strongly suggesting that is what's happening.

Silvio Brusaferro, the president of Italy’s Higher Institute of Health, said on Friday that the average age of coronavirus victims was 80.3, with the majority having suffered underlying illnesses. The most common additional health issue was arterial hypertension followed by chronic heart disease, atrial fibrillation and cancer.

More than 70% of those who have died were men. The two 39-year-old victims were a man with diabetes and a woman with cancer. The vast majority of deaths have been in the northern Lombardy region (1,420 as of Monday night), followed by Emilia-Romagna (346) and Veneto (69).

'This is like a war': view from Italy's coronavirus frontline

Plenty has already been written about how the population of Italy differs from much of the world. According to a UN report in 2015, 28.6% of the Italian population was 60 years old or older (second in the world after Japan at 33%). This compares to South Korea, where 18.5% of the population is at least 60 years of age, ranking 53rd globally. The impact of this disparity is quickly shown in the analysis of coronavirus deaths in each county. In Italy, 90% of the more than 1,000 deaths occur in those 70 or older.

Why South Korea has so few coronavirus deaths while Italy has so many

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

We'll soon know if it's worth it.

Netherlands is going the way you want to opt for.

The Netherlands is going to take the herd immunity approach which it seems is what some here would prefer.

3. Herd immunity. This is the strategy the Dutch government has decided to take. It means that 40 -- 80 percent of the people will get this decease. The government will attempt to guide it in such a manner that "the curve of infections is flattened," meaning that there are never too many infections in one week for our hospitals to handle. The idea is that young, strong and healthy people have to get the virus because they are least at risk of dying from it. Once they recover from it, they'll be immune to it. If enough people are immune to it, herd immunity theory holds, and society as a whole will be immune.

The problem is that the Dutch are consciously signing the death warrants of a certain number of their people doing this and hoping it will work when we have no evidence that it will.

1. Leading virologist Roberto Burioni says that he is "shocked" by Rutte's statement that "herd immunity" is based on strong scientific evidence. "There is no scientific basis to speak about herd immunity," Burioni told Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. "The Dutch government is taking an incredibly big risk. We don't even know whether people can become immune to this virus... Besides, there's no vaccine available yet."

2. Taking the herd immunity strategy means that, as said, 40% to 80% of Dutch people have to get the virus. If you take a low death rate of 0,6%, this means that tens of thousands (possibly more) people will die. Here is the math: 40% of 17,000,000 is 6,800,000 and 0.6% of that is 40,800.

3. At this moment, more than half of those in intensive care are aged 50 or below. Yes, it's true that elderly people are more likely to die from this coronavirus from hell. That's only because it's somewhat easier for doctors to pull younger and stronger people back from the brink of death. It's not because these younger people's lives aren't in danger.

Now realize that in the entire country, there are only 1,100 intensive care beds available. They'll undoubtedly increase that amount, but even if you double it to 2,200 there won't be nearly enough beds to help all those who need to be treated.

They will consciously allow their system to be overwhelmed doing this because even with the high rates of survival in younger people, they still develop the same percentage of severe cases that the elderly do, meaning the same percentage of those cases will need to hospitalized.

So the math says this may be where the Dutch will trend:

Highlights:

1. For a visur with an RO of 2.35 you need 43% of the population to go through the disease/be immune.

2. This means that we're talking about 7,493,610 individuals.

3. Since the Dutch health institute believes only 1 in 6 people with the virus are tested, 1,248,935 people have to test positive.

4. If we assume a hospitalization rate of 12% (which is low) we end up with 149,872 people who need hospitalization.

5. Note: we have 332 beds per 100,000 people. In other words: 56,440. Coronavirus patients alone will need triple that amount.

6. 5% will need critical care, meaning 62,447 people.

7. There are now... 1,100 ICU beds available.

8. If we assume a time to recovery of 3 weeks (which is indeed the case), all hospital beds in the Netherlands will be occupied for 8 weeks, and all ICU beds are occupied for 170 weeks.

170 weeks? But we're supposed to do this in one year's time. That's 52 weeks. Can you imagine what will happen? The ICU will send people -- often the elderly -- away to die at home instead of receiving the care they need to save their lives.

And at the end, they may or may not actually end up with an immunity worth the ordeal.

But for those who think the approach is better and I'm not saying it won't end up that way, we'll know because they're doing it.

a reply to: ketsuko

I'm not arguing for that approach, I might argue that's a logical approach if I didn't think there was something we're not being told about Covid-19, and until the last 48 hours I did believe it was just a slightly worse form of flu. However it's becoming increasingly probable that this reaction is based on information the public isn't being told. I made a post about why I'm starting to think that here. For those who want a real answer for this panic I would say read that post.

a reply to: Crosswinds

Worse virus behind it than what's already spreading? What?

before the Coronavirus Clade of health disruptors there was HIV and an assortment of viruses from birds to rats to pigs...

then, more targeted pathogens were tried out...hanta virus, H1N1, etc.

SARS then MERS were practice models to launch the 3rd corona(crown)virus named COVID19 which got to be spread into a Pandemic disease

there will be a likelihood that two more corona(crown)virus Outbreaks even more targeted than COVID19 will also become Pestilences upon the global community of nations (one-&-done is not the way it works)

the 'pale' horse has a rider, let's find out Who/whom sits atop that horse

I agree that something isn't right.
I proposed that this might be a smoke screen for something else.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's probably time for people to stop parroting The Administration, Right Wing Politicians, FOX News, and all the other sources calling it WuFlu, a cold, no big deal, a hoax, a Democratic conspiracy. Because all those people are now trying to backtrack and deny saying the things that are on the public record. Too late. You took your (ignorant) stand, now man-up and own it.

This is not The Flu. Not even related. Attempting to compare infection and transmission rates of COVID with the flu is intellectually dishonest. This is a new organism. People haven't had the time to develop immunity/antibodies to it. COVID's incubation period is twice that of the flu (4 v. 2 days). Why does that matter? Because carriers have twice as much time to spread it before symptoms surface. Current mortality estimates are 7%. Other than the H5N1 flu (which is particularly lethal), flu mortality rate is about 0.1-3%.

You can spew whatever BS you want but even the Conservative Brain Trust is trying (once again) to erase the public record after misleading the Public and making a bad situation significantly worse. If it weren't for States/Cities taking the matter into their own hands things would have already turned hopeless. This situation is a classic FUBAR and you can't blame the media for that.

originally posted by: jtma508

Current mortality estimates are 7%.

Based on the current numbers the mortality rate is 4% globally. Only the oldest populations such as Italy have anything close to a 7% mortality rate. Nations with younger populations such as South Korea have a mortality rate less than 1%. Using the worst hit nation as your estimate is nothing but intentional fearmongering.

a reply to: Crosswinds

You make a good point. Actually, several.

H1N! killed over 13,000 Americans in 2009/2010. Yet most people barely recall it. No borders were closed...no stock market crashed...no mass closings or cancellations.

Its hard for people to comprehend this level of evil...but POLITICS is the motive behind the current ginned up hysteria and panic in the United States. The Media and Democrats failed 3 times to remove President Trump from Office.

Using CoronaVirus-19 to create panic levels that are far above what is warranted for this 99.5% MILD (in the U.S.) virus, is their 4th try. This time, the Trump-hating NBA is a participant in the conspiracy.

And, like their previous 3 attempts, this one will BACKFIRE on them also. President Trump's job approval rating will ramp up another few notches, as it does every time the "haters" fail.

a reply to: Crosswinds
.
This has a ten times higher death rate and no one has natural immunity to it.
It could mean over a million dead by next June.

originally posted by: KKLOCO

originally posted by: dainfamusgc
a reply to: YouAreLiedTo

why is this so hard for people to understand?!? the health care system will crumble....

Why is this so hard for people to understand — our economy just crumbled in the process.

What’s worse?

Guess it depends on what's more important to any one person.
Money or people.
The economy can recover but we still can't bring back the dead.

a reply to: ketsuko

Unfortunately i dont think what we are doing is any better.

I know for a fact a patient was diagnosed with corona and sent home with antibiotics and told to self quarantine and to not fly.

A couple days later a check up call was made and the ahole got in a plane and flew in multiple flights in the us to go back home.
So now numerous people in those flights that have no idea of the exposure are going to infect others for the next 14 or so days and so on.

In addition hospital are not providing staff with masks due to limited supplies.

If this virus is bad enough to spend trillions in bailouts ,closing schools,business, ,and travel bans then we are making a huge mistake in expecting people to self quarantine and not taking care of our health workers and putting their families in higher risk for exposure. Not to mention the last thing we want is sick healtcare workers taken from worker pool during a healhcare pandemic.

If this is as bad as they are claiming we need to take a global timeout and financial freeze for a couple months besides essential personnell with dedicated quarantine and recovery areas and make healthcare providers safety a priority.

Lots of lessons to be learned unfortunately the politics and bs will be to thick for the general public to learn from.

originally posted by: Crosswinds
Just wondering why it wasn't like that with H1N1.

Is is simply the fact that it spreads SO rapidly? That's basically all?
Extremely rapid spread coupled with a high percentage of hospital-requiring cases?

They talk about death rate but what is the hospitalization rate?

Why do people keep spreading the false claim that SARS-CoV-2(aka COVID-19) doesn't have a high mortality rate, and H1N1 is worse when this is patently a lie?

This virus, SARS-CoV-2(COVID-19) is 10 times more infectious, and it is more than 30 times deadlier than influenza.

Infection rate of influenza 0.1

Infection rate of SARS-CoV(COVID-19) 2-3

Death rate of seasonal flu/influenza is typically around 0.1% in the U.S.

Death rate from SARS-CoV(COVID-19) 3.4% as per WHO.

But it also depends on what strain of the virus exists in your area, and several countries have shown a far higher death rate than 3.4%. Italy for example has had so far a 7.7% death rate.

Italy 27,930 known infected and 2,158 Dead. A 7.7% Death rate.