Magnetic Motor Game Changer

Hello fellow ATSers, I searched the forums and did not find anything on this, which was surprising to me!

I will try to include as much relevant info as I have found, and have looked into this rather extensively, and this is the most tangible and real application I have found.

The basic premise of this motor is the same "slingshot effect" that we use with gravity assisted space shuttles. Someone figured out a way to do it with magnets. The motor is real, the physics behind it are sound, however since we don't fully understand the underlying quantum effects of magnetism and how it occurs, there is still some unexplained science but the simple fact of the matter is it works.

Let's be very clear... it is NOT perpetual motion. It IS overunity.

First, the science:

A Motor Driven by Permanent Magnets Alone; A Clean and Abundant Source of Electromagnetic Energy from Iron and Other Ferromagnetic Materials

Article published in Power Electronics

Here is a video demonstrating it working:



If you look very closely at the video, you can see that the magnetic disks are not "flat" they are slightly asymmetrical. This is important.

The company, Inductance Energy Corporation, has a website:

IEC

From the inventors own words:

My development is the control of entropy in the system. The applied science of Magnetic Propulsion first diminishes the point of entropy and then uses that entropy to ACCELERATE the flywheel in what we call a “slingshot”.

Entropy in my system occurs at only one point in the rotation of the flywheel. This has taken me years to calculate and refine. Let’s say at 350 degrees as an example, entropy is at maximum (force in the opposite direction of the desired direction). So from 0 to 358 the flywheel is being pushed and accelerates continuously. Now, obeying all physical laws, if I did not control entropy, the flywheel would slow and eventually stop. At 359 degrees I have developed a way to attenuate the magnetic field that is already “lopsided” or asymmetrical. The flywheel then makes it past the reversing force and then enters the “slingshot” and then the flywheel, using the opposing force greatly accelerates from 359 to about 15 degrees.

There are only two fields opposing at a time. One from the attenuation section (what we call fuel), and the flywheel magnetic field (what we call receptors). There are no electromagnets, or any device coupling to the flywheel. It is a zero contact device that is also magnetically levitated.
Attenuation of the field is accomplished through the bending of the paired fields. This is a major breakthrough. We keep both the geometry (shape) and geography (where the magnetic fuel is placed)(the pattern).

.....

Now, here are some very important facts;
1. Crystal is NOT a dynamic motor. Magnetic Propulsion is not dynamic (instant) in its power delivery. It is inertia. It delivers power (which can then spin a generator) by accelerating a flywheel and storing that energy. You cannot in any way hook a dynamic load to a Magnetic Propulsion Engine. It will just stop, and it will stop quickly.
2. Magnetic Propulsion Engines work by creating inertia in a very specialized flywheel (some 257 parts) that refuse to magnetize in the presence of a large and powerful magnetic field. Once to speed (125 to 350 RPM) you have a great way to harvest kinetic energy by spinning an alternator. The alternator is not allowed to exceed a specific load, based on its affect on inertia. This is also a closely held trade secret. Think of it as a very large electrical “pump”.
3. Magnetic Propulsion requires STORAGE. A battery or capacitor. You can charge 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
4. Magnetic Propulsion requires a BATTERY or CAPACITOR for its parasitic energy to run its attenuation section. But this is only about 20W p/s at 60 RPM. So the battery is very small.
5. Crystal’s flywheel weighs in at 622 LBS where our commercial Engine flywheels are just over 4,000 LBS.
6. Magnetic Propulsion is not “over unity” or perpetual motion. It receives its power from over 5,000 PSI of pressure from an accelerated magnetic field. My developed magnetic fuel has “pull forces” (a common measure used in magnetism) of over 10,000 Pounds. This type of force requires not only great safety procedures but has also led to great breakthroughs in the handling of these very powerful magnets.

Source

His work is based on this paper from Szilard in 1929:

ON THE DECREASE OF ENTROPY IN A THERMODYNAMIC SYSTEM
BY THE INTERVENTION OF INTELLIGENT BEINGS

This is fascinating work. This has more to do with how the magnets are "controlled" by a computer that moves them at a certain point in time to offset the attract-repel force being equal, which should eventually slow the flywheels down to a stop. By making the magnets anisotropic, they are able to overcome the problem of equal attraction and repulsion.

Some more info on this:

A magnet is any material or object that produces a magnetic field. Among the strongest magnets are those derived from rare-earth minerals. In the case of the Earth Engine, superstrong magnets paired with computer control and the good old flywheel allow IEC to claim it can “suspend entropy.”

Mr. Danzik says he became convinced he could extract energy from powerful magnets (mostly ordinary iron) that are clustered in a way that magnifies their effect. Such arrays are well known. For example, Tesla cars use electromagnetic motors with what are called “Halbach” arrays, which are about 30% stronger than typical neodymium magnets.

The magnets IEC uses are also highly one-sided, or “anisotropic,” which means their field is stronger on one face than the other—say, 85% North and 15% South.

In the R32, magnets located in three black towers interact with ones placed in the two one-ton, counter-rotating flywheels. As the flywheel rotates, small battery-powered motors move the tower magnets’ orientation at moments of highest drag. This allows the magnets to accelerate as they approach and not slow down as much when they pass.

The net force imparts angular momentum to the flywheels that can then be harvested, mechanically or electrically, IEC claims.

The biggest riddle involves the conservation of energy. Conventional physics holds that magnets have nearly zero inherent energy. Mr. Danzik believes that is because we calculate magnets’ strength by how much current they induce in a loop of wire. He argues that with the emergence of anisotropic, rare-earth magnets, we need a new set of equations to calculate a new physical quantity, which he describes as "the resulting center shaft torque produced from angular momentum derived from the force of paired magnetic fields."

Please share your thoughts! I am very excited about this.

~Namaste

When do you reckon the generators will be ready for commercial production?

a reply to: SonOfTheLawOfOne

Hmm another energy efficient invention that will conveniently either be bought up never to be heard of again OR simply fade into the background of great ideas that went nowhere because it would interfere with the investments already being made into other areas and the profit margins' of those making those investment's.

I hope I am wrong because this coupled with other technology's could push the green energy industry a little bit further.

a reply to: Phage

From what I have gathered, they are already in that process.

There is already a commercialized version running in Las Vegas.



The physics of it are interesting, and it doesn't appear to violate laws. Definitely take a look at the Szilard paper as it was very influential, as well as the other links that have engineers and physicists poking at it and making sense of it. It's very cool...

~Namaste

a reply to: SonOfTheLawOfOne

A machine that produces more energy than it consumes...
Call me skeptical..

a reply to: SonOfTheLawOfOne

There is already a commercialized version running in Las Vegas.

How much power does it produce?

a reply to: Phage

Phage, it's in the video bro...

7 KwH.

I have always been skeptical of magnetic motors, but also have worked with them in the past and could see how overcoming the equal push/pull would allow for overunity if it could be done. Apparently, with the cheap manufacturing of high density magnets, and cheap computers and algorithms, there is a way it can be done. This isn't the same as just hooking some magnets together and pulling energy out, as it says in my OP, any load put on the motor itself will cause it to stop. This is a clever engineering trick to make the magnets "wobble" in a particular way so that an inertia slingshot is far stronger than the opposing force.

~Namaste

a reply to: Phage

Yeah, I would be very interested to know how much more it puts out than it takes in.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: SonOfTheLawOfOne

A machine that produces more energy than it consumes...
Call me skeptical..

Me too, but check out the links... there is some very good, very strong evidence of how it's being done. It doesn't violate laws of thermodynamics, but it is opening up conversations about how mechanical torque is measured as it relates to force of a magnet rather than the simple attract / repel of magnetic force, they seem to be diverging based on the math here.

For context, it is very similar to the Hallback array that Tesla has made use of. Thanks to computers and machine learning, there are models being developed that show magnetic fields can be created with insane precision and accuracy, visualized in a way we've never been able to do before. Computers are able to spit out new shapes and arrangements of magnets to produce specific fields, and it doesn't take 10 years of research anymore.

~Namaste

I forgot to mention that the first link to the paper is for another group that was working on the exact same concept.

Also, look at about 2:40 on the first video... pay attention to the reflection on the disks / flywheels. There is a "wobble" in the reflection, and this is fundamental to how it works. It acts like a magnetic pumping action to the fields in between the two flywheels, using computer assisted movements of the magnets to create that slingshot effect.

~Namaste

a reply to: SonOfTheLawOfOne

7 KwH.

Demonstrated where? When? In front of whom?

a reply to: Phage

The 7kwH isn’t the part I’m interested in.
I want to know how much energy it used...

a reply to: Bluntone22

Yeah. Pretty heavy flywheel it appears.

But you can get in on the ground floor.
ie.energy...

a reply to: Phage

Apparently, you don't have the time to read what I posted or watch the videos.

From the LINKS I POSTED:

Some have had their faith in classical physics shaken. Tim Tight, a tech adviser in the Bay Area with a master’s in engineering and an M.B.A., both from Stanford, visited IEC in April, after hearing about the Earth Engine for more than a year. “It sounded too good to be true,” he said. He returned from his visit a believer and began reaching out to friends and former classmates at Stanford, looking for a Ph.D. physicist to explain “why the machine…isn’t violating the laws of thermodynamics.”

There have been other demonstrations cited in the links.

The VIDEO if you look at it, is from the Firing Range in Las Vegas where it is currently IN USE, not being demonstrated but beta tested for a commercial consumer. The owner of the firing range needs to be able to put ranges in places where access to power can be challenging and difficult. The video is from January of 2019. They also demonstrated it to the public in in Scottsdale AZ, on October 12, 2018.

You're a smart guy, I take interest in your posts, but you gotta do some of your own work too, I don't spoon feed. I posted what I know so far, the information that I felt was more reliable and worth presenting, I don't have all of the answers but there are plenty of them out there for you to find if you take the time to look through the posted materials.

~Namaste

a reply to: SonOfTheLawOfOne

Oh, I read it. Some of it.

But like I said, you have a chance to get in on the ground floor of something huge.

Go for it.

a reply to: SonOfTheLawOfOne

Interesting, but how fast do the permanent magnets deplete?

Also, do they require energy input to spin the flywheels up?

originally posted by: Phage
When do you reckon the generators will be ready for commercial production?

As soon as the inventor can con (I mean convince) a number of people into giving him a lot of money.

a reply to: Blue Shift

If it actually works that won’t be a problem..
The real money is in licensing the patent, not building the generators.

originally posted by: SonOfTheLawOfOne
Let's be very clear... it is NOT perpetual motion. It IS overunity....
From the inventors own words:

"Magnetic Propulsion is not “over unity” or perpetual motion."

How do you get "It IS overunity" from quoting a source that says "Magnetic Propulsion is not “over unity” or perpetual motion."?

originally posted by: SonOfTheLawOfOne
The physics of it are interesting, and it doesn't appear to violate laws. Definitely take a look at the Szilard paper as it was very influential...

The Szilard paper has the dubious distinction of having another paper written about it called "The Worst Thought Experiment".

The narrative thus far will recapitulate, mostly, the standard, celebratory view of the thought experiment. In Part II, starting in Sections 8, I will give a dissenting, less celebratory view of the thought experiment. It is, I will argue, a failed thought experiment and the locus and origin of enduring confusions in the subsequent literature. In Section 9, I will try to account for how a thought experiment like this can fail so badly. The failure, I will argue, derives from routinely accepted narrative conventions in thought experimenting.

So not everyone was enamored with Szilard's paper, but setting that aside, I thought this was interesting on the website for this project's FAQ section:

ie.energy...

Is this a perpetual motion machine?

Earth Engine is not a perpetual motion machine. Earth Engine uses the force created from two opposing magnets. Magnets are a depleting resource that requires “recharging” every three years. If the engine is shut down, it will stop rotating the drive system.

I thought this was interesting, because it seemed to me that if you could extract energy from magnets, they would be a depleting resource, and that they would need to be "re-magnetized". But assuming for a moment their claim is credible (which I do not assume, just assuming temporarily for the sake of discussion), what is lacking is any calculation of the relevant economics.

I never looked into the economics of such a cycle of depleting and "recharging" magnets, but I have seen youtube videos of the apparatus used to "charge" magnets, and the current is so large it induces a hum which you can hear (at about 45-52 seconds in this video).



So, there's a quantifiable amount of energy used to magnetize the magnet. If the extracted energy isn't any more than that, then energy is still conserved. A model demonstrator might show some motion this way as a scientific curiosity, but I'd be very surprised if they were generating 7 kW and if the magnets really lasted 3 years, and how much does replacing or recharging the depleted magnets cost? Their website doesn't say.

To say there is ample reason for skepticism would be an understatement.

a reply to: chr0naut

They mentioned that the magnets would need to be replaced 10-15 years, they aren't sure precisely yet but from the 1 year that they let it run, it looks like they have an understanding of the rate of decay and it's looking like 10 years. Batteries on the other hand, that's a different story. I think those are 3 years.

~Namaste