Best argument for god? ... From an atheist

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: ThingsThatDontMakeSense

Either the chain is endless and every creator has a creator.

Or a creator simply wasn't created.

Both seem impossible though every creation has a creator.

Your comment reminded me of the link below.

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar
I'm curious to see if us godless heathens could argue for a skydaddy convincingly.

Best one I've seen:

www.abovetopsecret.com... (found a pdf here)

a reply to: Lucky109

I'm not stating the nature of God, I simply see the creator as God and not the created.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
Every creation has a creator.

Some might say this isn't a creation but still every creation has a maker.

Why do you think that every creation has to have a creator? Sometimes I think people don't think very deep...

a reply to: Xtrozero

Show me evidence of something that exists that isn't created.

Either you will bring up all of nature because you say there's no creator or you will find nothing to mention that wasn't a created like cars, houses, computers, medication, clothes.. etc.

And for the sake of language and the meaning of words.

We call something a creation because it has a maker.

originally posted by: Lucky109
a reply to: cooperton So it could have been aliens?

By definition, "aliens" would be something we don't know.

Probably one of my favorite lyrics is:

"When I was a kid I saw a light
Floating high above the trees one night
Thought it was an alien
Turned out to be just God"



God is currently alien to our lives, but is revealed through our inspection of the creation, and abidance to the virtues that this same God epidomizes.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Why do you think that every creation has to have a creator? Sometimes I think people don't think very deep...

Does a computer need a creator? Does a car need a creator?

Every system needs a creator. Human beings are no exception to this rule. To think we came to be by random chance is, by definition, unintelligent.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Xtrozero

Show me evidence of something that exists that isn't created.

Either you will bring up all of nature because you say there's no creator or you will find nothing to mention that wasn't a created like cars, houses, computers, medication, clothes.. etc.

And for the sake of language and the meaning of words.

We call something a creation because it has a maker.

Explain to me how whatever is outside of our universe would even be remotely like our universe...

If what you say is true then who is the creator of God, and who is the creator of the creator of God....so on and so forth...

This is what happens with you argument...

a reply to: Xtrozero

And what is that exactly? What does it prove? That you can't know the mind of God?

And why should something outside of the universe be like our universe? Random chance?

And for your second question;

Either every creator has a creator endlessly, or a certain creator simply wasn't created.

Both seem impossible yet every creation has a creator.

Is God a creation? If he only exists in the mind of people he isn't.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Why do you think that every creation has to have a creator? Sometimes I think people don't think very deep...

Does a computer need a creator? Does a car need a creator?

Every system needs a creator. Human beings are no exception to this rule. To think we came to be by random chance is, by definition, unintelligent.

If you are talking in terms of infinite you then do not need a creator...

a reply to: Xtrozero

What does that even mean?

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance

What does that even mean?

If something has no start or end then it doesn't need a creator.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

If something has no start or end then it doesn't need a creator.

Exactly. That's why God is "unbegotten", which means not created. God always existed, and never needed to be created. God has no start or end because it encompasses all things - "Alpha-Omega"

originally posted by: cooperton

Exactly. That's why God is "unbegotten", which means not created. God always existed, and never needed to be created. God has no start or end because it encompasses all things - "Alpha-Omega"

I agree with you 100%... My point is this also puts us in the position to where a God is actually not needed either and just puts the question out there once again of "why God". Why does any of of this require intelligent design in anyway? If you agree none of it requires a God, but God is still there, I can live with that answer and just agree to disagree.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Why does any of of this require intelligent design in anyway?

The same reason a computer requires intelligent design. Our cells have 3.2 billion base pairs that code for proteins to be made to facilitate biochemical functioning. And that's just one aspect. This sort of computing does not come to be by random chance. Hence the necessity of a Designer.

originally posted by: cooperton

The same reason a computer requires intelligent design. Our cells have 3.2 billion base pairs that code for proteins to be made to facilitate biochemical functioning. And that's just one aspect. This sort of computing does not come to be by random chance. Hence the necessity of a Designer.

But the greatest computer.. God.. doesn't need a creator then? You speak in circles...

Nature is random and to say it can not happen by random chance is you starting in the "now" and then looking backwards seeing only one line of human existence. You then say this can not be random and I agree IF we were talking just that one line from start to finish. But if you started at the beginning and looked forward you would see trillions of directions that evolution would go. For humans, evolution took a trillion random choices along the way to get to where we are today...

I say choices in the sense that there was uncountable number of events that influenced the path of where humans would end up, so it wasn't just one line of intelligent design.

That forward direction has not stopped and will not stopped as we have uncountable number of future influences ahead of us that will change us along the way over time.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

But the greatest computer.. God.. doesn't need a creator then? You speak in circles...

God's not a computer, God's a Designer.

Nature is random

Sunset time tonight: Random....?

But if you started at the beginning and looked forward you would see trillions of directions that evolution would go.

Given infinite time, a pig could never learn to fly because it's impossible given our current physics. Same with evolution, we've had millions of generations of artificial selection on fruit flies yet they remain fruit flies. Evolution doesn't happen.

originally posted by: cooperton

God's not a computer, God's a Designer.

Well then we are designers too as we created something that was never created before...

Sunset time tonight: Random....?

Sure, it was caused by 14.7 billion years of random actions.

Given infinite time, a pig could never learn to fly because it's impossible given our current physics. Same with evolution, we've had millions of generations of artificial selection on fruit flies yet they remain fruit flies. Evolution doesn't happen.

The whole fruit fly experiment is almost laughable. It was actually 600...not millions of generations...lol 600 generations actually took 12 years to do, so your million(s) would take about 17,000 years to get to your first million generations.

AND it was done in a very controlled situation to prevent from confounding the results where in the real world there are endless influences over a much longer period of time.

You are right about a pig though, but in 2 million years it would not be a pig anymore and could be a new species on its way to having wings...maybe in another 200 million years and uncountable number of new species we have one that can fly that started as a pig.

You know all this is like saying that a big dinosaur can never fly.... wait they can...today we call them birds.

a reply to: DustDoses

Since you're obviously such a genius to know that our existing universe is 13.799 billion years old +- .021 billion years (big lol at that ridiculous guess)

You don't need to be a genius to google that Our universe is 13.799 billions years old. Or do you have some other facts..?

Perhaps you can explain to everyone how something comes from nothing? Please, enlighten us all.

This is what the topic is all about kid...

How did finite come from nothing..?

Nothing is the same as a absolute constant….. There are no changes taking Place in such a absolute void of infinite vacuum.

A absolute vacuum is the only void of Space that can not have any finite time within it, because the vacuum is absolute empty. This void of Space represents Nothing...

There is only one way a asbolute vacuum could have formed finite…. And that is by compression. But the issue is how can a absolute vacuum that is a absolut constant do this…? You dont have the brains to figure this out… Because Your not on topic……

You would probably argue that a absolute vacuum don't exist… And i say…: That is what nothing is....we cant observe it. We cant observe a void of space that is absolute empty…. There is no information for us to observe there because we can only observe finite.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Is there anything without a start or end?

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance

Is there anything without a start or end?

Sure why not? That is my point?