Ancient Global Civilization

Slightly aside from the A word, but still relevant to the timeframe we’re talking about, this places late Pleistocene within the timeframe : Hagstrum,Firestone,Bunch on Late Pleistocene micro impacts in Mammoth and Bison remainsThe Hagstrum, Firestone ,Bunch paper on Micro-fossil blasts into Mammoth And bison skulls .
Mammoth tusks have also been found to contain micro holes with raised platinum, iron signatures within the holes.
Put simply , the Mammoths were exposed to a ‘Blast’ and contained within that blast were micro particles of iron,platinum, that peppered the tusks/or through the skin of their bodies? like a shotgun at a micro level; strong enough to leave impact holes .
Interestingly , George Howard, owner of ‘Cosmic Tusk’ website, a co -author of the original Firestone paper on the YDIH proxies, owns a mammoth tusk with these very signatures.
He had it tested, as he wondered (hoped,too,probably!) if these could be dated to one of the YD events.
To his astonishment, the results came back at 37,000 yrs. So his mammoth had been caught in the blast of a similar event, similar proxies, to those being found at the late Pleistocene/YD boundary .
In this paper they date from 30kish down to 11k .
If they are lower end, at the YD then we all know what that means, especially to Plato’s descriptions of cataclysms at the same time.
if not, it means we’ve had lots more nasty aerial events of this type .

a reply to: Byrd

originally posted by: reject

originally posted by: Byrd
A 3,000 year difference isn't contemporary.

keyword:SANK

It can't have been BOTH built and then sank on the same day, right?

Full quote:

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

So, how about evidence that people can sink into the earth, but not buildings, etc.

If Atlantis sank, so did the Greek army that defeated them (even though there were no "Greeks" at the time.)

Harte

a reply to: bluesfreak
These pages (and others) illuminate why the YD Impact Hypothesis has yet to become the main theory on the cause of the YD. As I said before, there are data that refute, or at least question, some of the claims published by YDIH proponents.
Since we seem to get nothing but links to the proponents, I figured I'd post these.
Link
Link
Link
Link
Link
Link
Link

Plenty more out there.

Harte

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

a reply to: Harte

Is that the same as:

“ Rain began to fall.....rivers overflowed their banks in a great flood... the giant animals were tall...but then their feet became stuck in the mud and they sank into the soft ground, first to their ankles, then to their knees, and then to their shoulders... until at last every one of them had sunk into the mud.”
From the Pawnee story discussed earlier.

Probably haven’t found these people as they’re at least 400 ft deep out to sea?

So, how about evidence that people can sink into the earth, but not buildings, etc.

Hardly any ground penetrating radar been done anywhere , really , has there Harte, but you know that too.
Marine archaeology is going to be a big thing, I’m sure.
still wonder what you think would be left of any cultures in these proposed cataclysms, and just how far out at sea they may all be?
If the mechanisms proposed gain acceptance, the combined data(significant enough already) is going to show something BIG went down, changing the face of the planet .
Do you think these proposed mechanisms at these times are responsible for the population ‘bottlenecks’ (stupid word,”die-offs” more like) seen globally or is it a coincidence?

These pages (and others) illuminate why the YD Impact Hypothesis has yet to become the main theory on the cause of the YD. As I said before, there are data that refute, or at least question, some of the claims published by YDIH proponents. Since we seem to get nothing but links to the proponents, I figured I'd post these.

Of course, there is debate. Which is a good thing for science . We can’t just have the debate stifled by dogma, can we Harte?
Just to let you know that the Surovell paper has been widely shredded - I believe they set out to test the Firestone paper regarding impact proxies , but used the wrong size sieves (v important when trying to replicate data of micro particles) , and I believe , they didn’t actually visit the same sites as Firestone, which was part of the ‘blind test’ of the Firestone claims .
Why they would use a different sieve size from Firestone , when trying to test the hypothesis is beyond me.
Although we should be fair accept genuine mistakes,I’m pretty sure Firestone et al listed their sieve size. The Firestone team had an idea these proxies exist at this boundary, and simply went out to find them where they thought they would be. And they found them. How the surovell team didn’t is plainly obvious due to the sieve controversy .
It’s been implied that they ‘deliberately set out not to find ‘ the same proxies as Firestone, and its implied that this was a ‘delay’ tactic in the debate. Not saying I agree with that , but it has been suggested.
Why supposed scientists of that ‘level’ would ‘mess up’ with the sieve error, and ‘mess up’ with WHERE they took samples in relation to Firestone , seems a huge waste of money and everyone’s time to me, why would such a ‘mistake’ be made ?
The paper has been thoroughly attacked by other phd’s regarding the revelation of shoddy methods.
Easy to find online .

Also, the ‘requiem to the YD’ paper has similarly been picked to pieces, can’t remember all the details off hand. It’s from 2008, am sure the shredding of that paper is to do with recent impact proxy evidence.
Yes the biomass burning is still debated , yes, but generally by those who are looking for a single mechanism, under which it’s hard to explain.
A series of events is becoming more likely- impacts/airbursts, catastrophic melting/flood, more airbursts, biomass burn are what’s showing up. It’s just hard for some gradualists to accept multi-mechanism events, which this appears to be.
I also consider/agree that meltwater into the Atlantic would effect the entire system , warm water currents being ‘shut down’ etc , but the generally emerging pattern of a multi mechanism event is very very strong, regardless of rebuttals .
In my opinion, we are seeing the same type of proxies found across the globe that helped to confirm the KT event, when at one point it was considered a ridiculous proposal.
a reply to: Harte

"The ruins in America, for example,were probably already ruins when the Inca came upon them and co-opted them for their own use. Same thing with the megalithic sites in Turkey."

Originally posted by: Harte
You ignore the written accounts of the Spaniards who saw the Inca building techniques, saw the Inca using those techniques, and actually hired the Inca to build for them. Also, it looks like you don't know much about Turkish megaliths. That's not so bad, no one really does. But claiming they're old ruins taken over by someone else is incredibly ignorant.
Harte

From a link kindly provided by Harte...

THE TRAVELS OF PEDRO DE CIEZA DE LEON. A.D. 1532-50
Of the village of Tiahuanaco, and of the great and ancient edifices which are to be seen there.

Tiahuanaco is not a very large village, but it is celebrated for the great edifices near it, which are certainly things worth seeing. Near the buildings there is a hill made by the hands of men, on great foundations of stone. Beyond this hill there are two stone idols, of the human shape and figure, the features very skilfully carved, so that they appear to have been done by the hand of some great master. They are so large that they seem like small giants, and it is clear that they have on a sort of clothing different from those now worn by the natives of these parts. Near these stone statues there is another building. Their antiquity and the want of letters, are the causes why it is not known who built such vast foundations, and how much time has since elapsed; for at present there is only a wall very well built, and which must have been standing for many ages. Some of the stones are much worn. At this part there are stones of such enormous size that it causes wonder to think of them, and to reflect how human force can have sufficed to move them to the place where we see them, being so large.

But what I noted most particularly, when I wandered about over these ruins writing down what I saw, was that from these great doorways there came out other still larger stones, upon which the doorways were formed, some of them thirty feet broad, fifteen or more long, and six in thickness. The whole of this, with the doorway and its jambs and lintel, was all one single stone. The work is one of grandeur and magnificence, when well considered. For myself I fail to understand with what instruments or tools it can have been done; for it is very certain that before these great stones could be brought to perfection and left as we see them, the tools must have been much better than those now used by the Indians. It is to be noted, from what now appears of these edifices, that they were not completed, for there is nothing but these portals, and other stones of strange bigness which I saw, some of them shaped and dressed ready to be placed on the edifice, which was a little on one side. Here there was a great idol of stone, which must have been placed there to be worshipped. It is rumoured that some gold was found near this idol; and all round there are more stones, large and small, all dressed and fitted like those already described.

The famous ruins of Tiahuanaco, generally considered to be long anterior to the time of the Yncas, appear, like those at Ollantay-tambo, to be remains of edifices which were never completed.

There are other things to be said concerning Tiahuanaco, which I pass over, concluding with a statement of my belief that this ruin is the most ancient in all Peru. It is asserted that these edifices were commenced before the time of the Yncas, and I have heard some Indians affirm that the Yncas built their grand edifices at Cuzco on the plan which they had observed at the wall near these ruins.

They even say that the first Yncas thought of establishing their court at Tiahuanaco. Another remarkable thing is, that in all this district there are no quarries whence the numerous stones can have been brought, the carrying of which must have required many people.

I asked the natives, in presence of Juan de Varagas (who holds them in encomienda), whether these edifices were built in the time of the Yncas, and they laughed at the question, affirming that they were made before the Yncas ever reigned, but that they could not say who made them. They added that they had heard from their fathers that all we saw was done in one night.

From this, and from the fact that they also speak of bearded men on the island of Titicaca, and of others who built the edifice of Vinaque, it may, perhaps, be inferred that, before the Yncas reigned, there was an intelligent race who came from some unknown part, and who did these things. Being few, and the natives many, they may all have been killed in the wars.

Garcilasso de la Vega gives the following account of Tiahuanaco.

There is also an enormous wall of stones, so large that the greatest wonder is caused to imagine how humnan force could have raised them to the place where they now are. For there are no rocks nor quarries within a great distance, from whence they could have been brought. In other parts there are grand edifices, and what causes most astonishment are some great doorways of stone, some of them made out of one single stone. The marvel is increased by their wonderful size, for some of them were found to measure 30 feet in length, 15 in breadth, and 6 in depth. And these stones, with their doorways, are all of one single piece, so that it cannot be understood with what instruments or tools they can have been worked.

" The natives say that all these edifices were built before the time of the Yncas, and that the Yncas built the fortress of Cuzco in imitation of them. They know not who erected them, but have heard their forefathers say that all these wonderful works were completed in a single night. The ruins appear never to have been finished, but to have been merely the commencement of what the founders intended to have built.

I cannot post everything here otherwise I will run out of room, so here are the original links...
Pedro de Cieza
Chronicle of Peru

So in terms of ancient cultures around at this time period we’re talking about where do we think this all leads us after everything so far discussed??
Other people other than Harte ARE allowed to chime in or postulate, theorise or discuss!
Regarding ‘ Atlantis ‘ for me, there is enough evidence to suggest that isostatic (raising and lowering ) events have occurred in the Azores Plateau , proving the mechanism exists there.
Ancient shorelines are proof of variance there along with hard to pin down sea level data.
The Azores is geographically where Plato describes an event of this type occurring .
Plato’s date also coincides with an only recently confirmed climate mega event.
Plato’s knowledge of a Pleistocene ‘more navigable’ lower sea level Atlantic with island island chains is also another interesting ‘coincidence’.
Papers have been written also showing isostatic mechanisms in the Mid Atlantic Ridge .
Then there’s the Comet Research Group and their ballsy take on these events , evidence slowly tipping towards their projections .
Then there’s the enigma of Gobekli Tepe to figure out ...
where are we at with this, then?

originally posted by: bluesfreak
So in terms of ancient cultures around at this time period we’re talking about where do we think this all leads us after everything so far discussed??
Other people other than Harte ARE allowed to chime in or postulate, theorise or discuss!
Regarding ‘ Atlantis ‘ for me, there is enough evidence to suggest that isostatic (raising and lowering ) events have occurred in the Azores Plateau , proving the mechanism exists there.
Ancient shorelines are proof of variance there along with hard to pin down sea level data.
The Azores is geographically where Plato describes an event of this type occurring .
Plato’s date also coincides with an only recently confirmed climate mega event.
Plato’s knowledge of a Pleistocene ‘more navigable’ lower sea level Atlantic with island island chains is also another interesting ‘coincidence’.
Papers have been written also showing isostatic mechanisms in the Mid Atlantic Ridge .
Then there’s the Comet Research Group and their ballsy take on these events , evidence slowly tipping towards their projections .
Then there’s the enigma of Gobekli Tepe to figure out ...
where are we at with this, then?

Take a look at my post above yours.

Not going to re -quote your entire great post, but if those words had come out of the mouth of Brian Foerster, Harte would be spitting his teeth out telling us about pseudo-archaeologists...
nothing better than great research.
a reply to: fromtheskydown

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Not going to re -quote it all, but if those words had come out of the mouth of Brian Foerster, Harte would be spitting his teeth out telling us about pseudo-archaeologists...
nothing better than great research.
a reply to: fromtheskydown

Too true. I find great pleasure in using Harte's very own links to help reinforce the subject he ridiculed. Of course now, words can be twisted, misinterpreted and maybe Pedro de Ciezo, because it was so long ago, didn't really know what he was talking about or maybe we are completely misunderstanding what it is he wrote down.

To be fair, the books are hard reading but I did find what I was looking for and to me, it only supports my thoughts on those amazing megalithic walls.

Yes, there is a DEFINITE difference between the megalithic and the almost ‘dry stone wall’ work we often see from the Inca. A definite difference in technology , without a shadow of a doubt .
Can’t remember which culture it was either , off hand , who’s bearded ‘god’ knowledge bringers arrived by boat from the ‘east’ (of there) from an island that was destroyed called Aztlan ? A few other similar names similar to ‘Atlantis’.
Very interesting stuff indeed.
a reply to: fromtheskydown

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Slightly aside from the A word, but still relevant to the timeframe we’re talking about, this places late Pleistocene within the timeframe : Hagstrum,Firestone,Bunch on Late Pleistocene micro impacts in Mammoth and Bison remainsThe Hagstrum, Firestone ,Bunch paper on Micro-fossil blasts into Mammoth And bison skulls .
Mammoth tusks have also been found to contain micro holes with raised platinum, iron signatures within the holes.
Put simply , the Mammoths were exposed to a ‘Blast’ and contained within that blast were micro particles of iron,platinum, that peppered the tusks/or through the skin of their bodies? like a shotgun at a micro level; strong enough to leave impact holes .
Interestingly , George Howard, owner of ‘Cosmic Tusk’ website, a co -author of the original Firestone paper on the YDIH proxies, owns a mammoth tusk with these very signatures.

I do have to ask -- are these perimortem or postmortem and how was this determined?

I will look at the papers, of course, and the absolute numbers. (I wish I still was a volunteer at the Perot... could ask some paleontologists who specialize in Alaska material about this face-to-face.)

nb: I am not particularly confident that the micro impacts are perimortem but feel that they are considerably postmortem, given that there's no actual paleontologists listed on that paper. An earlier version of the paper by one of the authors indicates that it was indeed postmortem ("The micrometeorites apparently shattered on impact leaving 2 to 5 mm hemispherical debris patterns surrounded by carbonized rings. " escholarship.org... )

originally posted by: bluesfreak

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

a reply to: Harte

Is that the same as:

“ Rain began to fall.....rivers overflowed their banks in a great flood... the giant animals were tall...but then their feet became stuck in the mud and they sank into the soft ground, first to their ankles, then to their knees, and then to their shoulders... until at last every one of them had sunk into the mud.”
From the Pawnee story discussed earlier.

No, it's not even close to the same. Plato's allegory has no oral (or any other kind of) tradition behind it, whereas the Pawnee myth is the product of a long oral history.

originally posted by: bluesfreakProbably haven’t found these people as they’re at least 400 ft deep out to sea?

Possibly. But precisely the same thing can be said about Prince Namor.

originally posted by: bluesfreak

So, how about evidence that people can sink into the earth, but not buildings, etc.

Hardly any ground penetrating radar been done anywhere , really , has there Harte, but you know that too.
Marine archaeology is going to be a big thing, I’m sure.
still wonder what you think would be left of any cultures in these proposed cataclysms, and just how far out at sea they may all be?
If the mechanisms proposed gain acceptance, the combined data(significant enough already) is going to show something BIG went down, changing the face of the planet .
Do you think these proposed mechanisms at these times are responsible for the population ‘bottlenecks’ (stupid word,”die-offs” more like) seen globally or is it a coincidence?

There hasn't been any evidence shown that the YD "event," if one existed, caused any decline or bottleneck in population.

And if you are referring to large land animals, the same is true. They didn't all die at the YD, even in North America.

All of it is speculation right now, with evidence being asserted and then refuted. Back and forth is all we have ATM.

It would be exciting if the Hiawatha crater was found to date to the YD. But they are a long way off from nailing that date down.

Harte

No, it's not even close to the same. Plato's allegory has no oral (or any other kind of) tradition behind it, whereas the Pawnee myth is the product of a long oral history.

Not so, you know the Dialogues states that it is knowledge of an old world event kept by Egyptian priests and told to Solon, and passed down through a few generations of story keepers to Plato’s time,

There hasn't been any evidence shown that the YD "event," if one existed, caused any decline or bottleneck in population.

You mean like this ...?
Population bottlenecks at Pleistocene /Holocene trsnsition

Others too , including Indonesia /Australasia



a reply to: Harte

We’re all wondering your position on the Inca information contained in Fromtheskydown post - THE TRAVELS OF PEDRO DE CIEZA DE LEON. A.D. 1532-50 ?a reply to: Harte

I do have to ask -- are these perimortem or postmortem and how was this determined?

Hi Byrd,
Yes it’s interesting stuff indeed, I always assumed it was talking about post mortem with reference to the skull impacts ( unless it was a horrific blast death ?!) going through the hide of say a mastodon .
The Tusk evidence , I think from another paper , not so conclusive, as could be either.
Interestingly , a team used African drought events in the 80’s set up a unique experiment with a freshly dead elephant carcass, to see truly how long any remains of it lasted on the savannah, the results showed that after all the munching by various animals , that within 5 years there was literally nothing left to find, the bones had been scattered, absorbed, and there was literally nothing to find.
So I guess that these micro shotgun blasts occurred either +/- 5 years of its death . And before the remains were sealed in a pyroclastic flood layer .
The platinum and iron spikes in these holes are significant ET impact/blast proxies .
It’s fascinating stuff though , eh?!
a reply to: Byrd

originally posted by: bluesfreak‘Science’ doesn’t have an actual figure for
A) the true size and depth of the Pleistocene ice caps
B) a true measurement for sea level rise since the Pleistocene .
Both are conservative estimates, and nobody really wants to argue with either, they’ll take them as ‘acceptable’ and quote them and calculate from them.
This ‘Static’ take on sea level and ice mass should actually be a changeable equation:
If the ice mass at the YD was far larger than we have supposed, or thicker , let’s say , the Atlantic becomes even shallower due to ice locked up in the sheets.
If it’s EVEN thicker than my daydream in the last sentence , then this Atlantic is even lower.

Sea levels are determined by actual geology and by sediment and coral records, not by how much ice is speculated to have been held in ice sheets.

A good read on the post glacial sea level rise here: www.pnas.org...

What you are doing is speculating that sea levels might have been different in order to support speculation that a landmass may have been above water (despite no other evidence) in order to support further speculation that said land mass may have been home to a civilisation for which, apart from one very much later Greek story, there is no evidence ever existed.

Your name isn't Graham Hancock by any chance, is it?

Sea levels are determined by actual geology and by sediment and coral records, not by how much ice is speculated to have been held in ice sheets. A good read on the post glacial sea level rise here: www.pnas.org... What you are doing is speculating that sea levels might have been different in order to support speculation that a landmass may have been above water (despite no other evidence) in order to support further speculation that said land mass may have been home to a civilisation for which, apart from one very much later Greek story, there is no evidence ever existed. Your name isn't Graham Hancock by any chance, is it?

No , what I’m doing is looking at the data that states the Azores HAS been above sea level in the past , so sea levels WERE different, due to shoreline evidence, shallow water fossils and plant remains in the sediment samples . As I believe I’ve told you , i think you’re just being deliberately provocative , but hey , who cares? Not me!
The fact is, that the Azores is where Plato describes an event of this type occurring .
The data confirms either isostacy in the sea floor or that the sea was once lower.
Either event can cause an island to ‘sink’ whether isostatically moving , or being drowned, giving it the appearance of ‘sinking’ under the surface .

In the 1970’s , an undersea communications cable snapped, after investigations, it was found that the sea bed had decided to ‘lift’ by one mile,all on its own, thus snapping the cable. You are aware such mechanisms exist, I presume?

You also appear to believe that the giant ice sheets that existed at this time have no bearing on sea level?
The ice locked up in them bears no relation to sea level? There is no symbiosis going on there??...at all..??!!!!
The proposition that so much ice in the northern hemisphere would also ‘suck ‘ a lot of moisture from the atmosphere ,Air, including the seas , that it would have no bearing on sea level ?

Are you Shirmer? Guess that veiled apology to Hancock this week regarding cataclysmic events at this era is still stinging, eh? There there, I’ll draw a smiley face on the plaster for you ...
a reply to: AndyMayhew

Santa Maria Island constitutes the oldest volcanic island within the Azores Archipelago, with no onshore record of eruptions younger than ≈2.8 Ma. A recent high-resolution multibeam bathymetric survey, however, revealed the presence of a seemingly young submerged wide volcanic edifice at approximately −70/−80 m, on the northeastern sector of the island shelf. The outer flanks of this volcanic edifice are partially eroded by marine erosion, but its general morphology is largely preserved, attesting to its relative youth. The edifice's aspect ratio and crater size are typical of a tuff ring formed by very violent surtseyan to taalian eruptions (with water/magma interaction ratios close to 1),implying extrusion at sea level or in very shallow waters, conditions that are incompatible with the present-day water depth at which this structure occurs. A detailed geomorphological analysis – coupled with a correlation with a modified reference eustatic curve – allowed the formulation and discussion of a formation model for the tuff ring, which involves extrusion during a period immediately preceding a rapid relative sea-level drop, most likely at ≈43 ka. Extrusion during such a period would have allowed for the subaerial consolidation and palagonitization of the tuff ring, increasing its resistance to erosion, before being finally submerged during the Last Glacial Termination. Submersion during the Last Glacial Termination – a period characterised by extremely fast sea-level rise – also helps to explain why this tuff ring was submerged without being completely razed by marine erosion. Our study offers insights on the formation and preservation of tuff rings in coastal environments, and in relation to sea-level oscillations, suggesting that consolidation plays a crucial role in the process. Crucially, our study suggests that Santa Maria's volcanism might have extended well into the very late Pleistocene, raising important hazard implications. Future work is scheduled to confirm this hypothesis, including sampling of the volcanic products by dredging and/or by remote operated vehicle. Our study also emphasises the importance of available high-resolution bathymetric surveys to the formulation of solid volcanic hazard assessments on volcanic islands.

Late Pleistocene Vulcanism in the Azores

“Raising important hazard implications” that’s interesting , eh?

Just take a little time to consider , before your next snarky reply, that some of us HAVE read some stuff about this .
The entire YD event , of which timeframe we are talking ,was a nasty time to be around.
We know the relationship between earthquakes and vulcanism, the Azores being built on volcanoes and a triple plate pull on the sea bed .
Is it so hard for you to gather evidence?
Please describe what is wrong with testing the hard data regarding the area where an ancient tale describes an event in this area?
And describes an event in the area where such mechanisms have proved to have existed in the past.
Does it trouble you when others , and others far greater than I, have researched a subject from a different perception than your own?

If the ice caps bear no relation to sea level , as you state, is it ok for us to crank up our gas bbq’s and patio heaters? Melt OUR version of the ice caps ?
“ hey it’s ok everyone, Andy Mayhew says sea level rise isn’t related to ice caps size after all !! Yeah he said it’s ok, it’s to do with geology...
turn the gas up and put my steak on..”


a reply to: AndyMayhew

www.researchgate.net... d_the_prevalence_of_fossil_cetaceans_on_oceanic_islands

The primary material for this research was a
large fragment of a cetacean mandibular corpus,
which was exposed at Praia do Calhau outcrop
(36º57’07.11’’N, 25º06’18.69’’ W), after Hurricane
Gordon hit Santa Maria Island on the evening of
August 19 and the night of August 20, 2012. When
the specimen was found, only the more poorly pre-
served end of the fragment was visible.
After obtaining the necessary legal authoriza-
tion of the “Parque de Ilha de Santa Maria,” the
skeletal remains were excavated during Septem-
ber 2012 by careful digging with shovels, trowels,
knives, and small chisels.

So this island in the Azores has risen above sea level since the Pleistocene. I thought the place sank?

Harte