Not Sure What to Make of This...

Wasn’t really sure where I should put this one, so I’ll just plop it here for now. If someone (mods) want to move it, that’s fine.

For the longest time I thought this was just a temporary thing, but now I see it more and more. This would be the trend of signing for something with your finger. You go into a merchant and buy something with your plastic and in order to complete the sale you have to sign some i-Pad like device with your finger. Now, I don’t know about you, but my signature with my finger looks nothing like my actual signature with a pen. In fact, I’ve often wondered if a finger signature is even a legal signature.

The trend all seemed to start with those electronic signature pads. You know, the ones with the little plastic pencil attached to an awkward little square pad you singed your name to. I hated them. The first generation of those were horrible, but over time they began to improve. I began to think there might be hope, but then the sign with your finger devices started showing up and they were far worse.

In my world an actual signature is a pretty important legal binder between two parties (i.e. Contracts, authorizations, acceptances, etc.) And, I have been involved in disputes where I was asked if the signature on a document was in fact my signature. In most cases it was, but there was one occasion where it was not.

I was always taught that your signature should be unique enough so as not to be easily replicated by others, and easily recognized as your own. I was also taught that your signature should be repeatable so that it looks the same all the time and every time. This, for legal reasons. I’m not convinced (at all) that I could confirm with absolute certainty if a signature done with my finger was in fact my signature, and not a forgery by someone else.

I wonder, is there something to all of this? I want to believe this is all just a part of some merchants just being too cheap and lazy not wanting to install the proper equipment to obtain a proper signature. However, with the increasing frequency I run into this phenomenon I wonder if there isn’t some darker and more sinister motivation.

In my world, accountability is important. So is precision. Signing a legal document with your finger is neither precise nor accountable. It’s sloppy, not repeatable and ripe for both duplication by others and / or forgery.

Accountability is the key theme here. Accountability is a poison word to many these days, and I wonder if signing with your finger isn’t just another example of society today trying to remove personal accountability from just about any situation.

What do you think?

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
Wasn’t really sure where I should put this one, so I’ll just plop it here for now. If someone (mods) want to move it, that’s fine.

For the longest time I thought this was just a temporary thing, but now I see it more and more. This would be the trend of signing for something with your finger. You go into a merchant and buy something with your plastic and in order to complete the sale you have to sign some i-Pad like device with your finger. Now, I don’t know about you, but my signature with my finger looks nothing like my actual signature with a pen. In fact, I’ve often wondered if a finger signature is even a legal signature.

The trend all seemed to start with those electronic signature pads. You know, the ones with the little plastic pencil attached to an awkward little square pad you singed your name to. I hated them. The first generation of those were horrible, but over time they began to improve. I began to think there might be hope, but then the sign with your finger devices started showing up and they were far worse.

In my world an actual signature is a pretty important legal binder between two parties (i.e. Contracts, authorizations, acceptances, etc.) And, I have been involved in disputes where I was asked if the signature on a document was in fact my signature. In most cases it was, but there was one occasion where it was not.

I was always taught that your signature should be unique enough so as not to be easily replicated by others, and easily recognized as your own. I was also taught that your signature should be repeatable so that it looks the same all the time and every time. This, for legal reasons. I’m not convinced (at all) that I could confirm with absolute certainty if a signature done with my finger was in fact my signature, and not a forgery by someone else.

I wonder, is there something to all of this? I want to believe this is all just a part of some merchants just being too cheap and lazy not wanting to install the proper equipment to obtain a proper signature. However, with the increasing frequency I run into this phenomenon I wonder if there isn’t some darker and more sinister motivation.

In my world, accountability is important. So is precision. Signing a legal document with your finger is neither precise nor accountable. It’s sloppy, not repeatable and ripe for both duplication by others and / or forgery.

Accountability is the key theme here. Accountability is a poison word to many these days, and I wonder if signing with your finger isn’t just another example of society today trying to remove personal accountability from just about any situation.

What do you think?

imho, you can be sure the powers that be are all legally set-up to take your money. They have left no legal out to taking your money regardless of the hoops they require you to jump through.

I hate signing with my finger, too. My signature is extremely unique with my Chinese family name signed in a Chinese character on the end of my full first, middle initial, last English name. Thankfully, I guess, my finger signature looks virtually exactly like one with pen & ink--at least most of the time if the angles & space etc. when signing fit well enough.

I don't know if my then signed signature is being compared to a database with such on file, or not. If so, the database MUST have some sort of algorithm that allows some deviation while requiring sufficient similarity to be reasonably secure as my signature.

Any signature exactly like another is usually considered copied & not necessarily a valid signature. Every signed signature is slightly different, IIRC.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk
I hate those things too! My sig looks nothing like my sig EVER, LOL.

This will lead to fingerprint verification and then facial/eye which many things are already. Great way to get everyone in "the system" isn't it?.

I think eventually we'll live in a currency free society and all money transaction will be done by facial/eye or chip (no thx). I transfer funds with Apple Pay, it's almost too easy and on a Big Brother level....a bit scary.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

You've actually got me a little worried about this one, FCD. I too noticed these things popping up everywhere over the last few years and, to be honest, I've been making a game of goofing on them. Like you, I have used an approximation of my signature that looks little or nothing like my legal signature.

I may or may not have, on several occasions signed something other than my name. Theoretically, nothing happened and the sale went through. I have never been asked to resign, though I have been prompted to re-swipe (or insert).

I have a theory and it's a longshot. What if they were hacked to scan fingerprints and the "name" is completely beside the point?

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Yea I tend to cringe every time I've had sign like that too. Those screens are so small and its a blank page that I appear to be signing... so I've often wondered to my own mind, gosh what is it that I'm really signing here ? Seems like it would be an easy way for someone to get you to sign something and you don't really know what it is your signing b/c the screen is all blank. All you see is a line saying signature. I mean yeah I know what I'm signing for, cuz I just did my transaction... but that's just it, only I know. It's not like my receipt prints with my signature showing what I actually signed for, my signature is all hidden for only one half of the parties in this transaction...ya know ! ? It becomes very one sided and that's just not good. It's a terrible thing when you begin to worry about stuff like this.

leolady

a reply to: mtnshredder

Great way to get everyone in "the system" isn't it?.

Interesting angle! I hadn't considered that! Let's go even one step further (down the Big Bro path)...

What if the real purpose behind this finger signing technology is to harvest your fingerprints and tie that data to your lifestyle (both personal and professional) habits???? **queue Twilight Zone music**

a reply to: JoseGarcia

Any signature exactly like another is usually considered copied & not necessarily a valid signature. Every signed signature is slightly different, IIRC.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply 'identical', merely 'unique' and repeatable (but not identical).

a reply to: leolady

There seems to be a legal consensus that POS signature blocks represent an intent to sign, regardless of its likeness to your pen signature.

www.creditcards.com...

They make it pretty clear that even pen signatures are fundamentally useless as a POS security device, but they do go into some detail at the end re "dynamic biometrics," which incorporates your movement, pressure and direction/intensity of your "strokes." Think about the way you type on your phone, the way you sign with a mouse or the degree of pressure you use when you type on a computer keyboard. In theory, all of these are potential biometric markers.

a reply to: leolady

Exactly! How long is it going to be before you sign one of those blank forms and the next thing you know a brand new car shows up in your driveway??? YOUR brand new car, that YOU signed for when you thought you were signing for a hot dog at the baseball game????

And what's the alternative? I'm not signing that? Okay, then you don't get your widget! And how could you ever prove you didn't sign for that car? Hell, you can't even prove it IS your signature, and now you'll be trying to prove it's NOT!

a reply to: 0zzymand0s

They claim that credit cards are more secure than ever since going to the chip technology. Actually, I think it's the exact opposite. And when you add in this finger signing technology it becomes even less so.

Some places ask you to confirm the amount of a sale, but that confirmation is not on the form you sign. It usually disappears before the signature screen appears. You could be signing anything.

And it's not just about money either. Imagine for a moment if some fraudster sold you a six pack of beer and the form you signed was really a...Power of Attorney!!! Now if that doesn't spook the bejeezus out of you, nothing will!!!

It's only a matter of time!

I think you have a valid point. Although I think in some cases if not most, there are cameras at the check out and they may be utilizing face recognition in conjunction with your signature.

The reason I say that is because I use the self-checkout at Walmart a lot and I have noticed that I can go into a Walmart that I've never been into before and I can use my debit card and not have to use my PIN number. But they have cameras with a screen that you can see yourself on as you check out so I am assuming that they are utilizing some sort of face recognition.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: JoseGarcia

Any signature exactly like another is usually considered copied & not necessarily a valid signature. Every signed signature is slightly different, IIRC.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply 'identical', merely 'unique' and repeatable (but not identical).

Our accountant makes use of this for our IRS tax document filing. You sign once to agree to auto sign and then simply tap accept to digitally apply that same signature to documents throughout the process. At the end, you are asked to review and then actually sign one more time that it is correct. So apparently the federal and state governments accept duplicated copy signatures.

One thing our accountant stated was interesting. That she hates the fingerprint pad, but the auto feature for her is a godsend. Many more of her clients painstakingly print out each letter of their name. They don't know how to cursive or haven't stylized an actual signature. Another actually just does a simple swipe line with no form or definition. It is all acceptable.

So others may be correct that there may be more registering on that finger pad than what we believe. It may not print out, but digitally your actual fingerprint may actually be recorded upon first tap.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I can't tell you what I draw on those touch screens in place of my actual signature, which I also find hard to do with my finger, but it's graphic and highly detailed.

Generally, an “e-signature” accompanies some other form of identification, such as a credit or debit card; so there is “backup documentation” captured for identity verification.

But, even in those instances where some form of digital backup verification is not elicited, the e-sig is intended less for the purpose of verifying a person’s true identity, and more for the purpose of “due diligence” with regard to the establishment of the signatory’s “informed consent” concerning the details of the transaction.

As to the criticism that these digital signature pads fail miserably at capturing true representations of a person’s signature; that is part of their value.

For a signature to serve as a bond of agreement and consent between two parties, all that is required is that the two parties accept the contemporaneous validity of the signatory act, and the consent it implies.

It is the very “repeatability” of a person’s actual signature that make said signature so vulnerable to forgery: a signature that changes significantly each time it is written is next to impossible to duplicate, quite obviously, and thus impossible to forge.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: mtnshredder

Great way to get everyone in "the system" isn't it?.

Interesting angle! I hadn't considered that! Let's go even one step further (down the Big Bro path)...

What if the real purpose behind this finger signing technology is to harvest your fingerprints and tie that data to your lifestyle (both personal and professional) habits???? **queue Twilight Zone music**

Why not. I think stranger things have happened.

I get this a LOT with work! My thoughts hadn't bordered onto the more cynical side (like fingerprint capture, lol, maybe something to it tho??) but it does seem to add more checks for the courier themselves. Also, I can literally watch them (courier) on a map with real time geo tags pointing their location as they progress on their route with certain companies. To me that's the boss over the shoulder at all times, yikes! I know other vocations require vehicles with gps checks and so on and so forth but luckily I've avoided such pressures.
I get many deliveries weekly and the only time I've had one go 'walkies' was when my usual courier was on holiday. When I asked the supplier to follow up they said;
"the signature is nothing like the usual when looking through your past orders"
Arranging a replacement immediately, expediting that particular customer service issue.
So some good can come from it, but ultimately all these data capturing and targeted marketing companies are susceptible to exploitation for nefarious deeds
See where this one goes over time I suppose!

-Mike
(site noob, lol)


a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Didn't read any of this thread. Its probably about something manmade, and therefore unworthy of pondering.

Somebody tell me, do I have superpowers to detect #ty threads by simply clicking on them?

Imagine how man more people would read the Bible if it had pictures on every other page? Probably more than zero? Sorry your thread was caught in my #ty thread detector, it may be inaccurate I don't have a diverse control group.

I hear you.

I actually developed a whole different signature for the sign with a finger or stylus pen that is unique to me, easy to do and repeatable. I sort of fell into this discovery by accident.

It's gotten to the point that I've even started using it in place of my normal pen and paper signature sometimes. I may as well just adopt it as my one & only signature to save time, grief and thinking about which sig to use.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
Wasn’t really sure where I should put this one, so I’ll just plop it here for now. If someone (mods) want to move it, that’s fine.

For the longest time I thought this was just a temporary thing, but now I see it more and more. This would be the trend of signing for something with your finger. You go into a merchant and buy something with your plastic and in order to complete the sale you have to sign some i-Pad like device with your finger. Now, I don’t know about you, but my signature with my finger looks nothing like my actual signature with a pen. In fact, I’ve often wondered if a finger signature is even a legal signature.

The trend all seemed to start with those electronic signature pads. You know, the ones with the little plastic pencil attached to an awkward little square pad you singed your name to. I hated them. The first generation of those were horrible, but over time they began to improve. I began to think there might be hope, but then the sign with your finger devices started showing up and they were far worse.

In my world an actual signature is a pretty important legal binder between two parties (i.e. Contracts, authorizations, acceptances, etc.) And, I have been involved in disputes where I was asked if the signature on a document was in fact my signature. In most cases it was, but there was one occasion where it was not.

I was always taught that your signature should be unique enough so as not to be easily replicated by others, and easily recognized as your own. I was also taught that your signature should be repeatable so that it looks the same all the time and every time. This, for legal reasons. I’m not convinced (at all) that I could confirm with absolute certainty if a signature done with my finger was in fact my signature, and not a forgery by someone else.

I wonder, is there something to all of this? I want to believe this is all just a part of some merchants just being too cheap and lazy not wanting to install the proper equipment to obtain a proper signature. However, with the increasing frequency I run into this phenomenon I wonder if there isn’t some darker and more sinister motivation.

In my world, accountability is important. So is precision. Signing a legal document with your finger is neither precise nor accountable. It’s sloppy, not repeatable and ripe for both duplication by others and / or forgery.

Accountability is the key theme here. Accountability is a poison word to many these days, and I wonder if signing with your finger isn’t just another example of society today trying to remove personal accountability from just about any situation.

What do you think?

Signing for my $3 cup of coffee with my finger doesn’t bother me.

Signing for something more significant should be handled via DocuSign. Multi-factor authentication of the user happens before signature. In a way, that’s actually more secure and verifiable than a wet ink signature.

So no, I don’t share these concerns.