Three Questions For Damnationists

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: Lazarus Short
We were all in Christ before the foundation of the world slain with him all things will be reconciled back to Him.
tentmaker.org...

As a longstanding member of the Tent, I fully agree with what you say.

Many will say it's not fair in my opinion that is where the rewards come into play. I've. Believe that when all things are reveled we will all gladly bow our knee to the King.

a reply to: DrumsRfun

I would like to ask you a few questions instead.
Who was Paul?
How did he know Jesus?
How many years did he live after Jesus?
How many people did he (Saul aka Paul) kill?

I don't believe Paul actually killed anyone. It was moreso a poor to riches story, that anyone can attain glory no matter their sins. However its logic is a bit shaky, kinda tells people, if you kill a lot of christians. Jesus will reward you with enlightenment.

Who was Paul? His real name was Pol.
How did he know Jesus? A clue perhaps is the following riddle...

The Son of the Father had to die
So Barabbas (Aramaic "Son for the Father") the murderer, could live.

But I feel your real question is really out of concern for people that believe in the bible.
I suspect that really depends on personal beliefs regarding salvation.
If people believe that apocalypse will bring salvation then there is real reason for concern
But a great many christians achieve salvation in the now.
So God will answer us no matter what we believe.

a reply to: DrumsRfun
Every thing was made by Him and through Him. Revelations say behold the lamb slain from the foundation of the world if we were all in Him then we were all slain too. By His sacrifice all thing will be reconciled back to Him. Every thing will be made new in the new heaven and new earth all of creation moans for that event.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

And some great theologians agree with universal salvation, pretty sure Constantine was as well.
Irrespective, I don’t think God will force salvation on people who have expressed their desire not to go to His presence. I don’t understand how a God who has given His creation freewill then actively deny it. It becomes force and it becomes a lie.

I also don’t believe humanity is eternal so some time away from the presence of God and then the souls flame goes extinct, never more for those who don’t choose God. Those in Christ will live forever by choice

originally posted by: schuyler
Paul basically had a scam that got out of hand. There were a bunch of disparate groups all over the Roman Empire that began to "do their own thing" in the absence of Paul being there personally. You can see it in his letters to these groups as he tries to bring them back into the fold. He used fire and brimstone speeches just like fundamentalist preachers do today. God is gonna get you if you don't watch out! He admonishes them that they better get their act together because Jesus was coming back in their lifetime so they better be ready.

Jesus did not. Paul was wrong. 2,000 years and we're still waiting.

That’s not in the bible, Paul said if people didn’t act and show Christian fruit in the church, cut them loose.
Show me please where Paul uses fire and brimstone?
Christianity is a personal faith, it is on offer but not forced

You must read a different bible to me

I am not going to enter into a debate here and I won't start quoting scripture and verse. I will tell what is in my heart according to my understanding.
First of all you are placing hell in the wrong context. Hell is the final destination of the non-believers in Christ but it is not the first stop immediately after death. That first step where all spirits of the dead first go to dwell in is called Sheol. Think of it as a buffer zone for the souls of the dead. Or even the current passing through an electrical wire that is held in reserve by a capacitor, before the switch is thrown. Christ was the first human form to have died, entered into Sheol for 3 days and then brought back out to be judged worthy of God's pleasure. His judgement was immediate but he still had one more task to perform for his Father before his ascension to Heaven.
Every soul of every dead mortal person that ever has or ever will be, will be brought out of Sheol at it's designated time to be judged worthy or not. Only the worthy will be selected to reside with God and the rest will be cast into the chaff to be delivered unto oblivion an eternal torment, Hell.

I'll be back if I think of anything else.

I didn't get into the Paul discussion but if it's about his authenticity or potential salvation because of a prior sin that he had recognized committing, plead to his god for forgiveness and it was granted to him, he will receive the same judgement as any other deserving soul.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

No, it's his way of trolling you.

a reply to: CharlesT

Not sure how you can have oblivion and eternal tormenting the same sentence

Oblivion, forgotten, non existent, as burned to dust like chaff, no more, not eternal but non existent. Eternal, never ending

To suffer eternal torment a soul has to be eternal, though in the Garden, God removed humanity before it could eat from the tree of life. Humanity needs Jesus to be eternal

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: DrumsRfun

But what did Paul do for the Romans?

Splitters.

People so overthink religion. It's just not complicated.
It's called faith for a reason. You don't have to know every finite detail about God to believe in/on Him.
If God had not cared if man knew all he knew he wouldn't have cast them out of the garden.

I was an industrial electronics technician dealing with CNC and PLC systems control. I learned from the very start to not get entangled into the internal on and offs, 1's & 0's used to control machinery. I would have ended up chasing endless paths leading in a multitude of directions finding nothing. You look at the physical inputs and outputs and that's it. You just have to know the internals are functioning correctly.

Believing in God is the same thing. Understand who he is and be content. It's the concept of God, folks. Only the devil is in the details.

a reply to: CharlesT

Yes I agree the finer details are not necessary to know but I do think it’s worth discussing and understanding the details to make faith more than just superficial.
I guess it’s an individual thing

originally posted by: CharlesT
I am not going to enter into a debate here and I won't start quoting scripture and verse. I will tell what is in my heart according to my understanding.
First of all you are placing hell in the wrong context. Hell is the final destination of the non-believers in Christ but it is not the first stop immediately after death. That first step where all spirits of the dead first go to dwell in is called Sheol. Think of it as a buffer zone for the souls of the dead. Or even the current passing through an electrical wire that is held in reserve by a capacitor, before the switch is thrown. Christ was the first human form to have died, entered into Sheol for 3 days and then brought back out to be judged worthy of God's pleasure. His judgement was immediate but he still had one more task to perform for his Father before his ascension to Heaven.
Every soul of every dead mortal person that ever has or ever will be, will be brought out of Sheol at it's designated time to be judged worthy or not. Only the worthy will be selected to reside with God and the rest will be cast into the chaff to be delivered unto oblivion an eternal torment, Hell.

God’s Word fails to support Hell in:

The creation account.
The historical narrative.
The poetical works.
The accounts of many, many deaths.
The Law given through Moses.
The denouncements against personal/national sins.
The many judgments against individuals/nations.
The various prophecies about the future.
The activities of the Serpent, Devil, Satan, Lucifer.

a reply to: Lazarus Short
www.christianspiritualism.org...

a reply to: Raggedyman
If you need more than that to find God, good luck in your continual never ending search. Follow those internals until you are blue in the face. I know people with that mentality and they will never find peace.

I also know people with that mentality that are still learning to be better able to help others find God. But just for simply debating, what's the need?

a reply to: Lazarus Short
Yes, those are all good examples that validate and reinforce a persons faith but after so long and going through so much interpretation and possible unintentional alteration, It shouldn't be taken for granted that what we have now is the actual verifiable verbatim word of God. A certain amount of doubt or skepticism should be maintained rather than depending on it. Keep in mind as well is that it passed through the ages by verbal interpretation before it was actually written down. There is just too much opportunity for mistakes to have been made.

The only true word that has withstood any alteration by man and his fallibility is from the Holy Ghost. All other sources are derived from man's need to pass on and interpret ancient texts onto modern language for the easier understanding and comprehension. In essence, it's God's history here on earth to validate his presence, to reinforce FAITH. Are you even certain what you are discussing is actually, verbatim, the word of God? You may be actually debating inaccurate information.

What is coming next is only my concept to receiving the truly accurate word of God, OK?

You see, the Holy Ghost has to actually be received by someone before the enduring true word of God can be known. And then even the word in it's entirety, verbatim are really never even known by the recipient. The writings that have passed through the centuries is man's attempt to preserve the original word as best that it can be as proof of God's existence. To validate God's existence. To validate God's concept.

Like I said, the only thing you find in endlessly searching the internals is frustration and confrontation, such as this. The continual search of or through the finite details keeps the mind in a constant state of confusion and turmoil where both peace and turmoil can not coexist in the same mind.

If you already believe in God, maybe its best to leave it at that and leave the internals alone. You don't need them if you have faith and believe.

If you continually seek, this means that you have not found.

a reply to: Raggedyman

You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not here to debate. I'm here to say what I believe and am content to let you disagree as much as you want. No skin off my nose.

Not sure how you can have oblivion and eternal tormenting the same sentence

Oblivion, forgotten, non existent, as burned to dust like chaff, no more, not eternal but non existent. Eternal, never ending

To suffer eternal torment a soul has to be eternal, though in the Garden, God removed humanity before it could eat from the tree of life. Humanity needs Jesus to be eternal

I don't even know what you are babbling here.

I don't know why I even reply to these threads. I find myself trying to explain when a person should be doing their own research to the answers they seek. They may learn more in the process.

I'm looking at christianspiritualism.org.

originally posted by: CharlesT
a reply to: Lazarus Short
Yes, those are all good examples that validate and reinforce a persons faith but after so long and going through so much interpretation and possible unintentional alteration, It shouldn't be taken for granted that what we have now is the actual verifiable verbatim word of God. A certain amount of doubt or skepticism should be maintained rather than depending on it. Keep in mind as well is that it passed through the ages by verbal interpretation before it was actually written down. There is just too much opportunity for mistakes to have been made.

The only true word that has withstood any alteration by man and his fallibility is from the Holy Ghost. All other sources are derived from man's need to pass on and interpret ancient texts onto modern language for the easier understanding and comprehension. In essence, it's God's history here on earth to validate his presence, to reinforce FAITH. Are you even certain what you are discussing is actually, verbatim, the word of God? You may be actually debating inaccurate information.

What is coming next is only my concept to receiving the truly accurate word of God, OK?

You see, the Holy Ghost has to actually be received by someone before the enduring true word of God can be known. And then even the word in it's entirety, verbatim are really never even known by the recipient. The writings that have passed through the centuries is man's attempt to preserve the original word as best that it can be as proof of God's existence. To validate God's existence. To validate God's concept.

Like I said, the only thing you find in endlessly searching the internals is frustration and confrontation, such as this. The continual search of or through the finite details keeps the mind in a constant state of confusion and turmoil where both peace and turmoil can not coexist in the same mind.

If you already believe in God, maybe its best to leave it at that and leave the internals alone. You don't need them if you have faith and believe.

If you continually seek, this means that you have not found.

I understand what you say, and I appreciate it. However, however much you talk against "searching the internals," I have done so and found answers and contentment, not the "confusion and turmoil" you speak of. Some quests actually pay off, and my quest for an answer on the Hell question allows me to see God for Who He really is: my/our loving heavenly Father. Such a Father does not toss His unruly children into eternal conscious torment.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Such a Father does not toss His unruly children into eternal conscious torment.

Yes He does!

For me, here is the flaw in your theory, and that's what it is, a theory on both our parts.
Our loving Father has cast his seeds to the winds to be scattered across the earth. Some will fall on fertile ground where most will not. They will fall on solid ground, others will fall within the thistles and into cracks and crevices of infertile ground and not produce his desired result. Not all the seed will produce his desired crop and will be rejected during the harvest because their fruits are not favorable to bring into his keep.
I grow a small garden every year and harvest what my efforts produce that is pleasing to me. That is my reward. All else I leave to rot where it grew. I don't have any guilt for my rejection of the seed I planted that didn't produce. I don't even consider it. God has no feeling for the seed that didn't produce his desired result. He lets it rot in the earth.

originally posted by: CharlesT
a reply to: Lazarus Short

Such a Father does not toss His unruly children into eternal conscious torment.

Yes He does!

For me, here is the flaw in your theory, and that's what it is, a theory on both our parts.
Our loving Father has cast his seeds to the winds to be scattered across the earth. Some will fall on fertile ground where most will not. They will fall on solid ground, others will fall within the thistles and into cracks and crevices of infertile ground and not produce his desired result. Not all the seed will produce his desired crop and will be rejected during the harvest because their fruits are not favorable to bring into his keep.
I grow a small garden every year and harvest what my efforts produce that is pleasing to me. That is my reward. All else I leave to rot where it grew. I don't have any guilt for my rejection of the seed I planted that didn't produce. I don't even consider it. God has no feeling for the seed that didn't produce his desired result. He lets it rot in the earth.

There is another parable where the Shepherd leaves the 99 sheep which are safe in the keep, and goes to save ONE lost sheep.

On the other hand, the parable of the sown seeds never says or implies that the miscast seeds are lost forever, does it?