S-300 = Patriot ?

Yes its almost like a joint weapons program in which te russians and americans are working "together"..!!

Originally posted by MPJay
AFIAK the Patriot recently has been improved with Russian tech, the US bought an S-300 system from some country and had a look at what made it tick.....the US has been doing reverse engineering of Russian systems for decades.

That goes both ways... it's known as espionage and it is not just betweeen the Russians/Chinese/Americans - it goes on between many different nationalities.

So what I heard about the F-8 so many years ago might be true...

but my post went largely ignored, what parts of the S-300 was copied?

Originally posted by MPJay
AFIAK the Patriot recently has been improved with Russian tech, the US bought an S-300 system from some country and had a look at what made it tick.....the US has been doing reverse engineering of Russian systems for decades.

"Reverse engineering" is a semi-vague concept.

The buying or taking of a S-300 system and tearing it down while analyzing it may be viewed as a 'comparison' of sorts rather than a true and full blown "reverse engineering." These engineers may have simply been seeking to find what 'stolen' PATRIOT technologies had been transferred into the system, how they were compromised or how they were changed and then utilized. The scenerio of "reverse engineering" isn't simply me tearing something apart while analysizing it to see how it works. There are comparision ratios, etc.

Considering the case of stolen PATRIOT technology being used, trnaslated, and/or incorporated into the S-300, these engineers may have simply been trying to see how it was accomplished, etc. Certainly does not imply that we are stealing the tech from Russia! And definately not like we are trying to "reverse engineer" a space craft so we can build one. Bet.




seekerof

[edit on 10-3-2005 by Seekerof]

you got to be kidding me, two different purpose systems which s300 even developed before patriot.. copying.. engineer/cia friends..


ats

I trust intelgirl and off the street relatively well, but not necesarilly their colleagues since they might all be biased due to patriotism or have been misinformed about it by the powers that be...

I'll believe it 100% if I hear it from the Russians, i'm sure they'd be proud of such an espionage victory over the US.

It does make sence - look at the mission profiles of both the weapons , then throw in idiginous capability and government requirements into the mix , then look at the outcome - 2 systems which are remarkably similar in what they can do.

Both of which will have been upgraded over the year - and neither of which i would like to be a crew against.


The question has to be - which is smarter - the SAM`s shooting at us or the passive/active ECM systems defending us?


And if the claims of the manufacturers of the world`s SAM`s are to be believed then all of the aircraft used in the gulf recently would have been shot down by now

will anyone care to read this :

US acquires S-300 from Croatia

Citing the Croatian newspaper Zagreb Vjesni, Geostrategy Direct reports that the U.S. acquired a Russian air and missile defense system earlier this year. While the report identifies the system only as “S-300,” it is most likely the S-300PMU, more capable than the S-300V. The weapons system was reportedly shipped to America earlier this year.

Update: Croatia was reported to have acquired an S-300P (SA-10 Grumble) system in 1994 from an unidentified country, variously identified on different occasions by Jane’s as Ukraine, Russia, or Israel—towards the end of its war with Yugoslavia, and therefore in violation of an international arms embargo. The system, reportedly incomplete, is said to have been shipped by airplane between August 10 and December of 1994. The SA-10 missile tubes were included in a military parade in Zagreb in May of 1995. In July 2000, it was reported that Croatia would return two of the S-300PMU systems to its unidentified country of origin.

Also everyone check out this thread : www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 12-3-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by Seekerof

Considering the case of stolen PATRIOT technology being used, trnaslated, and/or incorporated into the S-300, these engineers may have simply been trying to see how it was accomplished, etc. Certainly does not imply that we are stealing the tech from Russia! And definately not like we are trying to "reverse engineer" a space craft so we can build one. Bet.

seekerof

[edit on 10-3-2005 by Seekerof]

I don't see that "may have been " tone with the accusations on the chinese copying posts..
And believe me , the US has and still does reverse engineer russian tech..its undeniable.. I honestly feel that the F-22 thrust vectoring capability was developed on the basis of (if not copied) already available russian equivalents..
there's no need to list the instances...Its obv.. not a crime, but its obv..

Similarly any non- NATO nation which makes great strides in stealth/anti-stealth tech WILL take ideas from the USAF..
Its inevitable, more efficient and pure engg. logic...

Russia are very soon gonna deploy the S-400.

check out this thread Russia to Deploy S-400 Missile Defenses



The S-500 is in development.

It really does not matter to russia if the us copy some of their older stuff.Russia are way ahead. This time its america that has to do the catching up.

the us play dirty all the time, and paint a honourable picture of themselves all the time.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Russia are very soon gonna deploy the S-400.

check out this thread Russia to Deploy S-400 Missile Defenses



The S-500 is in development.

It really does not matter to russia if the us copy some of their older stuff.Russia are way ahead. This time its america that has to do the catching up.

the us play dirty all the time, and paint a honourable picture of themselves all the time.

Acutally, by time the S-500 is deployed 2010 - 2012, Lasers and microwave weapons will be deployed to shoot down those little worries. Lasers will be before the microwave weapons, which is proposed to be fitted on the JSF. Raptor will take air, bombers take ground, JSF take missiles and any other aircraft, and it will bomb the ground.

JSF is unfortunately a very poor fighter... I would not trust it against advanced enemy aircraft personally... it's more geared towards strike and wild weasel roles.

Its blatant that all counties try to steal other countries ideas. The US is no-doubt trying to steal russian secrets and Russia is no-doubt trying to steal US secrets, if they didnt what woulds be the point of all those expensive intelligence groups?
GrOuNd_ZeRo is right in asking what parts were alledgedly copied (does anyone know:puz onto the russian system. They probably looked at what could be inproved upon and upgraded appropriately. As the US probably did when they purchased the russian system.
The Patriot did have a lot of software problems and still did during the second gulf war (tornados anyone), i just hope they are solved by the nxt time you (US) go to war. Too many lives have been lost to freindly fire!!

Originally posted by Lucretius
JSF is unfortunately a very poor fighter... I would not trust it against advanced enemy aircraft personally... it's more geared towards strike and wild weasel roles.

LOL, how do you know this ? Why is it a poor fighter, please elaborate rather than use throw away comments.


Anyway, back on topic, here's an interesting report on the effectiveness of the Patriot.

The Patriot role in OIF was defense against tactical ballistic missiles; it had no assigned air defense role, but it did have a self-defense role against anti-radiation missiles. The Patriot deployment was substantial, involving up to 40 U.S. fire units and 22 fire units from four coalition nations. Two types of Patriot interceptor missiles were used: the improved PAC-2 missile, which is the traditional Patriot interceptor; and a new hit-to-kill missile, the PAC-3. Both were used with success in OIF, with the bulk of the engagements falling to the PAC-2. All nine enemy tactical ballistic missiles that threatened areas designated for Patriot defense were engaged. Eight of these engagements were observed by enough other sensors to conservatively declare them successes; the ninth engagement is judged to be a probable success. None of the attacking tactical ballistic missiles caused any damage or loss of life to the coalition forces.

www.acq.osd.mil...

[edit on 5-12-2005 by rogue1]

"Reverse engineering" is a semi-vague concept.

The buying or taking of a S-300 system and tearing it down while analyzing it may be viewed as a 'comparison' of sorts rather than a true and full blown "reverse engineering." These engineers may have simply been seeking to find what 'stolen' PATRIOT technologies had been transferred into the system, how they were compromised or how they were changed and then utilized. The scenerio of "reverse engineering" isn't simply me tearing something apart while analysizing it to see how it works. There are comparision ratios, etc.

Considering the case of stolen PATRIOT technology being used, trnaslated, and/or incorporated into the S-300, these engineers may have simply been trying to see how it was accomplished, etc. Certainly does not imply that we are stealing the tech from Russia! And definately not like we are trying to "reverse engineer" a space craft so we can build one. Bet.

seekerof

[edit on 10-3-2005 by Seekerof]

This is very true. As it happens, I was employed at the "organization" that was responsible for the inspection and test of the exploited SA-10 seekers during the mid 1990's. I cannot go into details, because that information has not been declassified (as far as I know), but suffice it to say that the goals of the technology exploitation program were to determine the effectiveness of the seeker, find any weaknesses, and determine hardware reliability metrics. The system itself was purchased legally from another nation - it was not "stolen". There were no great surprises during the course of the evaluation - all was it was advertised and expected. I am fairly certain that there was nothing worth stealing anyways, but that in of itself doesn't mean that the SA-10 system was crap. It was said that it was a fine system, but that was simply because it was based on an excellent U.S. design, namely the Patriot. Later, when I was employed at Raytheon's Missile Systems Division, this was personally confirmed to me by the Patriot Program Manager. Desite our best efforts, at the time classified missile seeker and targeting radar technology continued to slip out of our hands and into the hands of our adversaries, because of greed.

I know from the trusted insider source, whose identity I can not disclose, that the alien Vasudan race is responsible for Atari gaming technology. I was kidnapped by the Stellar SolarTech Alliance and forced to work for them, for free, on a project which I for obvious reasons can not disclose to the public, but rest assured that after thorough examination, video gaming turned out to be a mind control technology, but despite our efforts, it is still being forced upon us by the evil Vasudans. I can’t disclose the details of the project, because it’s hyper-classified, but rest assured it’s all true, coming at you straight from the “deep cloak&dagger underground”.

Just kidding. I farted, but in the interests of national security and you own safety, you didn’t hear (or smelled) what I just said, cause it’s classified, so don’t ask me, cause I’m not at liberty to discuss it, or my security clearance will be revoked, etc etc, because of greed, as it happens.

My security clearance is higher then yours, no it isn’t, yes it is, no it isn’t, my Batman will beat your Spiderman in a fight, no he won’t, yes he will.

Thank God I don’t need any security clearances.

If you got friends or family with security clearances, figuratively speaking you just end up talking about the weather, somewhere else, a month from now, and then you’re back to square one.

It’s just a job, with all the boredom and tedium as any other.

Man, I need a break. I’m out for a smoke, no ventilation here anyway.

well, this thread is , well..................stupid

i mean all this crap is based in this

between the late 1970s and 1985 nobody less but the chief of the Phazotron Design Bureau was supplying all possible information about such projects R-23, R-24, R-33, R-27, and R-60, S-300, as well as about fighter-interceptor aircraft like MiG-29, MiG-31, and Su-27 and their radars directly to the CIA

lol, i mean the mig 29 is based in the f15??, the 31 in the f14??, THE S300 IS A COPY OF THE PATRIOT???, hell how can compare both systems , are veeery diferent , an air defence system with a semi-anti ballistic system???, tssss..

actually the US purchased s300 by the anti-ballistics performance, not to "see the grade of reverse engieenery from the great american tech"

all the nations uses spies to gather info of the defences systems, that is one thing, other is to copy a design

why the people dont like to accept that actualy were scientifics, reasearch teams, investigators to develop a defense system???, actually the russian industry was always very strong in the rocketry and radars tech

btw by "wonders american tech" im not saying that the tech is crap in a sarcastic way, im only saying -with some sarcasm- the way of thinking of some guys that believe in that "all the people is trying to copy the wonders of the american tech"


[edit on 7-12-2005 by grunt2]

^^^^ read the thread It was about the S-300 being a copy of the Patriot, nothing else. There is more eveidence to suggest it was, than wasn't. Can you provide anything which states it wasn't, because you haven't so far.

So for now, I'll take the information provided in links rather than your uninformative ramble

Show some evidence you ignoramus.

Hi!
S-300 PMU
www.fas.org...
www.fas.org...

www.fas.org...


PATRIOT PAC 2
www.fas.org...

www.fas.org...



don't you see any defference? I think? that the question in subject is incorrect.
Cetainlty, espionage was with both sides ( USSR and US I mean ). But I have many doubts about "stollen US technology". I think, that such claims are usual elements of Cold War propaganda.

Originally posted by rogue1
^^^^ read the thread

It was about the S-300 being a copy of the Patriot, nothing else. There is more eveidence to suggest it was, than wasn't. Can you provide anything which states it wasn't, because you haven't so far.

So for now, I'll take the information provided in links rather than your uninformative ramble

Show some evidence you ignoramus.

blah, blah, blah.....well, anyway the article is about info gathered by the CIA of russian systems, NOT that the russians got western info for the develop of their systems

you keep that stupid myth of "evil and dumb russians coying everything" by your own ignorance about the basic tech