How do traits evolve? Where do traits come from?

I still don't quite get where instincts are encoded into DNA. I can see where physical structures would. You're an animal where it snows a lot and your fur is white instead of brown, so you and your descendants survive while the brownies don't. I get that.

But this is behavior, and much of it learned. Where is it encoded that if you're a bird and you sing your complex song in a particular way better than your loser competition, you mate and the loser doesn't? One bird way back when figures out a couple of tweets first that seem to attract females better then the others (for some reason), then more notes and phrases are added on as the generations pass? How the hell does that even work, and where is that information stored? Proteins?

originally posted by: waftist
Perhaps the universe is a simulation and we are all characters in a game being controlled by some individual, and their mistakes/choices in our journey affect our outcomes?

It's crazy, but the more you look into this, the more plausible it becomes when trying to explain all kinds of things, particularly those we consider "paranormal." Minor variations / errors in copied codes. Bits and pieces of old codes and designs that haven't been completely edited out by time, but rather stuck in box in the attic like old record albums. Not just biological forms, either, but practically everything having to do with "reality."

I guess we'll figure it out when we respawn. Or not, since dying apparently wipes out a lot of the RAM memory (but maybe not all of it).

a reply to: Blue Shift

Reminds me of this.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Blue Shift

Reminds me of this.

Or one of the first and best reality simulation movies -- which never really caught on at the box office -- Dark City.


Evolution = reprogramming?

a reply to: Blue Shift

I have often wondered if biological lifeforms and properties are a high form of technology, perhaps one branch of many that intelligence evolves along. Comparative to our current mechanical/computer technology, which in itself may move toward biological properties at some point, as a suitable and propagative medium. The "coding" in our DNA and sequencing in our genes all sounds like advanced technology and I have wondered if biology led/leads to mechanical technology or perhaps vice versa as an ultimate end state. Hell I suppose it could even pendulum back and forth for all I know.

Makes me wonder even more, which in the long rum is best suited for thriving in this universe, biology or technological(mechanical/computer/hardware etc...) And then of course we could see the two merge and perhaps that is the best suited state for evolving. I don't know man, many more questions than answers but I have pondered also about ufos and how they randomly may have landed/crashed here and contributing to such leaps in technology. Was this intended or natural, or did this random act of chaos hijack our natural intended path of evolution in which biology alone would someday enable us to traverse the universe, either in mind/ consciousness or like Species 8472 from Star Trek Voyager. Maybe biologically we could have evolved on a different path, away from technology, to a future where we may be able to levitate or fly, visit other worlds with our minds, generate intense energy from our bodies, manipulate matter like the Siddahrs of legend.

Okay, pardon the tangent but this stuff spins muh brain a bit But yes I do believe in some type of intelligent design here, and that we are the products of, for whatever reason(s).

originally posted by: neoholographic
How did traits evolve? How does a beneficial traits evolve? How does any trait evolve? Where does the ability for random traits to evolve that just happen to benefit the organism to survive in an environment?H ow does the ability for parts of an eye evolve? Or parts of molecular machines? Or parts of lungs, toes, toenails a hand with fingers? Where does this ability come from and how can it occur without pre existing intelligent design?

Nothing evolves, not even by accident because the Creators are paying attention to every area of the garden/laboratory.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Just finished watching it.

I think I have to watch it again.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Blue Shift
Evolution = reprogramming?

Do you write code, if so (being an instant results sort of person) you are not going to wait a few million years to see that code operate.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Blue Shift
Evolution = reprogramming?

Do you write code, if so (being an instant results sort of person) you are not going to wait a few million years to see that code operate.

What's a few million years if you're traveling at relativistic speeds? Or if your lifeform is essentially immortal? Could be like waiting for code to compile.

Also, life writes and modifies its own code on the fly using sentience. Maybe the programmer would just have to stop by occasionally to see if it hasn't been obliterated. And if so, no problem. It's just one out of billions.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Blue Shift

Reminds me of this.

Loved that movie.

Like I said, a natural interpretation of evolution is a fantasy. You need intelligent design because you need the code and the machinery to transcribe and translate the code. The medium can't encode itself or its sequence with information to carry out instructions. Here's an example:

Say I wanted to design a code for Poker hands using red, black, yellow and green. Black is always paired with red and yellow is always paired with green. So I want to code for a Full House.

black red yellow = ace of diamonds - red black green = ace of hearts - yellow green red = ace of spades - green yellow black = seven of hearts - yellow green black = seven of spades

At the beginning of the program I write b = black, r = red, y = yellow and g = green. So the code will look like this.

bryrbgygrgybygb

This would be like a strand of DNA or a gene. These string of letters is coded with a full house in Poker consisting of 3 aces and 2 sevens. In order to do error correction, you would need a second strand. It would look like this.

bryrbgygrgybygb
rbgbrygybygrgyr

Now, I can create the machinery that reads this strand and uses the second strand to check for errors. The machinery will just check the first strand against the second strand. As this is copied over and over again, an error(mutation) might get through.

Say you have a poker environment and a spades environment. In the poker environment, organisms with the full house trait thrive. In the spades environment, organisms with more spades in a full house trait survive than those with a full house trait with less spades. Let's say a mutation occurs and this happens.

bryrbgygrgybyyb
rbgbrygybygrggr

Look at the second to last point on the strand and you see a mutation occurred and g and y in the strand was flipped. Now it ends with yyb on the first strand and begins with rgg on the second strand. Now the hand has changed because yyb codes for a 4 of spades. So the trait changes.

You start with:

ace-ace-ace-seven-seven to ace-ace-ace-four-seven

Now you have a 3 of a kind trait instead of a full house trait. In a Poker environment, organisms with this trait quickly die out but in a spades environment, organisms could thrive and dominate. This is because you now have 3 spades with an ace, 4 and 7 of spades.

This is DNA in a nutshell. It shows that a natural interpretation of evolution is an impossible field of dreams.

You have to encode the sequence with information, build the machinery to read the sequence and that knows when to start and stop, build the machinery that double checks the sequence when it's copied, machinery that goes and gets the right cards(amino acids) that are coded for in the sequence.

There's no new information.

When ygb is flipped to yyb because of a mutation, the mutation isn't creating the encoded information that says yyb = 4 of spades. Let me repeat that.

When ygb is flipped to yyb because of a mutation, the mutation isn't creating the encoded information that says yyb = 4 of spades.

THIS HOW CRAZY A NATURAL INTERPRETATION OF EVOLUTION IS!

It would be saying that the mutation encoded yyb with equaling 4 of spades! That's akin to saying when Glutamic acid which is CTC is flipped to Valine which is CAC, the flipping(mutation) is what encodes CAC to code for Valine! That's just ASININE!

This information has to pre exist and it has to be designed by intelligence.

I have to stress how crazy this is. The ACT OF MUTATION just occurs when the code is copied. The code has to pre exist. Mutations don't encode sequences with information.

One more time:

MUTATIONS DON'T ENCODE SEQUENCES WITH INFORMATION!

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Blue Shift
Evolution = reprogramming?

Do you write code, if so (being an instant results sort of person) you are not going to wait a few million years to see that code operate.

Oh but time is relative sir, as Einstein has shown. Now throw in a few extra dimensions and see that they could be observing us from another dimension where time as we know it doesnt exist at all.

Or perhaps a good analogy could be such as a mote of bacteria oblivious to the space outside of its petri dish, oblivious to the entire world outside of its petri dish. Being observed by it's watchers. Its entire life goes by yet just a few seconds for its observer.

Do you write code? Consider perhaps a digital garden simulator where you plant the seeds and watch them grow. Now press the fast forward button.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: Blue Shift
Evolution = reprogramming?

Do you write code, if so (being an instant results sort of person) you are not going to wait a few million years to see that code operate.

What's a few million years if you're traveling at relativistic speeds? Or if your lifeform is essentially immortal? Could be like waiting for code to compile.Also, life writes and modifies its own code on the fly using sentience. Maybe the programmer would just have to stop by occasionally to see if it hasn't been obliterated. And if so, no problem. It's just one out of billions.

Your soul expression is immortal; so is mine..we created these vessels in order to inhabit them (for fun and learning) we are able to experience materiality. This is a Time Space Illusion planet. One does not just insert themselves in a vessel here without knowing what time period, when or what one needs to experience to grow the soul. I don't play with millions of years because homo sapien sapien humans millions of years ago did not exist.

originally posted by: Alien Abduct
originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Oh but time is relative sir, as Einstein has shown. Now throw in a few extra dimensions and see that they could be observing us from another dimension where time as we know it doesnt exist at all.

Their point of view is different than mine as I actually am experiencing TSI as a material being for a REASON (why would they be observing at all) and have no relevance to my experience here.

Alien Abduct: Or perhaps a good analogy could be such as a mote of bacteria oblivious to the space outside of its petri dish, oblivious to the entire world outside of its petri dish. Being observed by it's watchers. Its entire life goes by yet just a few seconds for its observer.

I know that I designed something I sought for the experience (I had a hand in creating it). I have written code and I want the immediate gratification of seeing its impact.

originally posted by: Blue Shift
One bird way back when figures out a couple of tweets first that seem to attract females better then the others (for some reason), then more notes and phrases are added on as the generations pass? How the hell does that even work, and where is that information stored? Proteins?

You're asking all the right questions, in a good humored way too.. it's great.

Obviously a mutation to DNA and therefore a protein is not going to give that little bird the proper vocal cords, throat muscles, the neural circuits to execute the action, as well as another bird to even understand what this first little tweet even meant. Like even if the first little bird learned to tweet, the other birds are gonna think its really weird... Yet were supposed to believe that random mutations to a protein structure is going to allow a bird to connect those tweets to "Hey it's time to mate"?? It's absurd. What came first, the first tweet or a bird that could understand the tweet? And what happens to the old protein structure? Whatever function it had is gone now. The organism is just supposed to survive without it? The whole theory is rubbish.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

What's a few million years if you're traveling at relativistic speeds? Or if your lifeform is essentially immortal? Could be like waiting for code to compile.

That would be like a programmer for apple running a random number generator for 14 billion years until it created some useful code, instead of using his intellect to just write the code asap. Granted that the Coder of the universe has omniscience, I don't suppose it would rely on random mutations to create its masterpiece.

originally posted by: cooperton
That would be like a programmer for apple running a random number generator for 14 billion years until it created some useful code, instead of using his intellect to just write the code asap. Granted that the Coder of the universe has omniscience, I don't suppose it would rely on random mutations to create its masterpiece.

Random number generator chips (tm Hughes Aircraft) were used to encode already existing information. Masterpiece lifeforms "exit HERE: off ramp EARTH" exist in this environment because they were designed specifically to live within an ecosystem (also perfectly designed) that would support them. There were no accidents, no coincidences. Earths ecosystem is so involved/complex as to seem to be a miracle. The genius and breadth of our creators imagination is ridiculously unbelievably awesome.

Another useless thread repeating all the same bull# as always. Maybe one day an honest creationist will post here and not need to lie about genetics and evolution. Wishful thinking LOL.

originally posted by: Barcs
Another useless thread repeating all the same bull# as always. Maybe one day an honest creationist will post here and not need to lie about genetics and evolution. Wishful thinking LOL.

You're a thorn in every thread you enter. How about some peaceful productive input for once?

a reply to: neoholographic

I know it isnt card games but it sure does seem to disprove your "theory"...

The idea that gene duplication could result in genes with new functions has been around for awhile. Geneticist Susumu Ohno explained the theory in detail in 1970. He argued that duplication is the most important evolutionary force—more powerful than genetic drift, for example. Scientists are still working out the specifics because the vast majority of mutations eventually arising in the duplicates are harmful, meaning they result in function loss; the duplicates would need to stick around for generations before acquiring helpful mutations. But the model required that natural selection should spare the extra gene copies until they had a chance to change for the better.

This model takes note of the fact that many genes do their primary job of coding for a particular protein very well, but also have a weak secondary function that may become important under certain environmental stressors. For example, one gene might code for a protein that helps bacteria gobble glucose, but also allows the bacteria to snack on starchy cellulose. If all sugar disappears from its environment and only cellulose remains, the bacteria that have this gene will have the capacity to eat more cellulose and therefore be selected for over time and endure. Andersson and Roth's model posited that beneficial mutations already present by chance would be favored by natural selection and stick around in the genome. When the gene is amplified through the duplication, the extra copies give rise to new genes that are better at performing the secondary function, thereby making it prime. "The key is that it never goes off selection," Roth says.

In a study in the journal Science, Andersson, Roth and their colleagues demonstrate the process in lab-grown Salmonella enterica. They grew one strain missing a gene key for expressing the essential amino acid tryptophan. The strain needed to rely on another gene, which had a primary job but also a weak ability to take on the missing gene's work. The researchers encouraged the bacteria to duplicate the overworked gene, and its copies gathered mutations—some of which enhanced tryptophan production. At the end of a year's time (3,000 generations later) the bacteria had one gene that did the original job and a second that had evolved a new primary function—manufacturing tryptophan.

www.scientificamerican.com...

a reply to: TzarChasm

What you have posted supports what I'm saying! The function must pre exist in the code before it's expressed. Mutations and evolution doesn't matter. It just acts on the code it doesn't create the code.

This is clear evidence of Intelligent Design. This is from your link.

In a study in the journal Science, Andersson, Roth and their colleagues demonstrate the process in lab-grown Salmonella enterica. They grew one strain missing a gene key for expressing the essential amino acid tryptophan. The strain needed to rely on another gene, which had a primary job but also a weak ability to take on the missing gene's work. The researchers encouraged the bacteria to duplicate the overworked gene, and its copies gathered mutations—some of which enhanced tryptophan production. At the end of a year's time (3,000 generations later) the bacteria had one gene that did the original job and a second that had evolved a new primary function—manufacturing tryptophan.

Where's the evolution???

This is simply code not evolving a new function, but evolving a secondary function in the environment where it's needed. This secondary function didn't evolve because of a mutation, it pre exists in the code as a weak ability until it's in an environment where the weak ability needs to be expressed.

This is clearly design!

I do think that people who accept a natural interpretation of evolution has to be extremely ignorant when it comes to reason and logic. I'm not saying this as a pejorative because everyone is ignorant of something but in this case, those who support a natural interpretation of evolution have to be willfully ignorant.

How can a mutation encode information in a sequence of DNA that has function? A mutation is just a copying error. The code has to pre -exist expression and it's designed by intelligence.

This just isn't evidence of Intelligent Design of the pre-existing code but this also shows design in directed mutations. These mutations occur when they're needed and the function that emerges helps the organism survive in the environment.

It makes no sense to say a mutation encoded a sequence of DNA to express the function needed for an organism to survive in an environment.

In the case you posted, evolution didn't occur until the Scientist created the right environment in the lab. It's simple:

First, Scientist created a condition in the lab where some Salmonella enterica were grew missing the gene to express the amino acid tryptophan.

Secondly, the Salmonella enterica had to rely on a gene that had THE SECONDARY FUNCTION in it's code to produce tryptophan. This wasn't created by evolution or any mutation, this was a pre-existing weak ability that was expressed when needed, when the Scientist ENCOURAGED it. Who did the ENCOURAGING millions of years ago?

Tell me, how did a mutation or any evolution encode a sequence of DNA to code for the amino acid tryptophan in a sequence of amino acids that give rise to a needed function?

a reply to: neoholographic

if it can happen "by design" then it can happen by accident, the means are viable and so the probability has been demonstrated. evolution can be artificed in small degrees by modern technology but the planet has been doing it for hundreds of millions of years, just like birds inspiring planes. maybe we are just dumb and have a hard time keeping up with basic engineering that is common sense to nature.