GOP lawmakers in three states want to ban trans health care for minors

a reply to: Gryphon66

I totally agree, and further, I don't believe government (ie: taxpayers) should be footing the bill(s) for any of it, either!

a reply to: Boadicea

I’m not for doing big and especially unreversable surgeries to minors, not am I really for hormones and such if it will effect their normal development long term, but I have a hard time believing that profit is not the motivating factor for all this stuff..

When a company doesn’t want to cover birth control “ for religious reasons” , it sure is convenient that is cheaper for them as well..


You never see anyone spending money for religious type freedom..


I would be SUPER interested what would happen if not covering birth control , trans stuff, whatever religious conviction were more expensive, if they still do it..


Do they still not cover birth control if it cost them 5 million a year so to whatever “having to do it special for you” type filing fee???




So why I agree it is crazy to permanently alter minors when we can’t even accurately diagnose trans type stuff yet... I think follow the money.. and no telling how much cheaper it is for the companies not to cover the less invasive stuff too.

originally posted by: Fowlerstoad
a reply to: Gryphon66

I totally agree, and further, I don't believe government (ie: taxpayers) should be footing the bill(s) for any of it, either!

I don’t disagree, but there’s a lot bigger and more prevalent of government waste that we can tackle first.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
I’m not in favor of government at any level deciding who deserves healthcare and who doesn’t for any reason.

So, you obviously didn't even bother to read the OP.

No one would be denied health care.

This would merely ban the use of any permanent and highly questionable medical/surgical procedures being performed on children.

a reply to: Boadicea

Then you’re still arguing from the unknown. We don’t know what we don’t know. Moreover, you think that we’re being denied access to the information that probably does exist for ... some reason.

What argument is there to counter any of that?

I’m not talking about or justifying any activists or their points of view here ... pro-con-etc.

I have no problem with people identifying them selves as they choose. I don’t believe that any sort of secondary or official recognition process is needed.

There is a difference between being trans and suffering from gender dysphoria. Yes, there is a relationship, but honestly, if any American wakes up tomorrow morning and decides that they are another gender multi-gendered or no genders at all ... IT DOES NOT MATTER TO ME.

a reply to: JustJohnny

This profit factor -- whether one is making their profit performing these treatments or losing their profits paying for these treatments -- will of course be deciding factors for too many!!! And this is definitely something else to be considered while considering and drafting any legislation.

I think the biggest argument to be had is whether these procedures are medically necessary or merely cosmetic, which is where the emotional blackmail comes in, "But they'll kill themselves if they can't change their sex!!!" Thus making it a medically necessary, potentially life-saving procedure. Others will point to the post-transition suicide statistics and say, "But they'll kill themselves if don't like the results!!!!" Again adding to the emotional blackmail.

It's a vicious circle.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Oh yes they would..


They just wouldn’t be denied ALL healthcare..

Those cases who were legitimate and who will continue to live as the other sex , They would benefit dramatically from transitioning as early as possible..and thus would be denied healthcare that was in their best interest ..


The problem I have is that I do not trust the diagnosis... not for conservative conspiracy theory reasons, but for the more obvious reasons like “ we have not even identified the biological signs to know for sure”..

I do not buy questionnaire diagnosis.. for major surgeries on kids I want a blood test.. or a brain scan... or dna markers..

Also , though rare you do have munchausen’s by proxy.. so it is not unheard of for some parents to run scams..

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

Then you’re still arguing from the unknown.

That's very true in many ways. And it's also why I'm arguing for erring on the side of caution and "first, do no harm."

We don’t know what we don’t know. Moreover, you think that we’re being denied access to the information that probably does exist for ... some reason.

I have no doubt that we are being denied information, and the necessary research to find crucial information and data. Many academics and researchers and medical practitioners have stated as much. This isn't my opinion, this is fact.

What argument is there to counter any of that?

How about no arguments but a collective will to do the research and figure this out!!!

I’m not talking about or justifying any activists or their points of view here ... pro-con-etc.

I agree. By all means let people advocate for their best interests, pro-con-whatever, and make sure we cover everyone's best interests and cover all our bases. Let the facts and data inform our points of view, and whatever actions we take -- medically, legally and socially.

I have no problem with people identifying them selves as they choose. I don’t believe that any sort of secondary or official recognition process is needed.

There is a difference between being trans and suffering from gender dysphoria. Yes, there is a relationship, but honestly, if any American wakes up tomorrow morning and decides that they are another gender multi-gendered or no genders at all ... IT DOES NOT MATTER TO ME.

For everyone's sake, we need to protect people's natural and inalienable right to self-govern and exercise their free will. Including their gender identity. I would call it "personality," and screw gender norms and stereotypes, but it's still everyone's to protect and express and identify as they see fit.

a reply to: Boadicea

If a persons brain wiring has gotten crossed and their brains are wired as if they are the opposite sex, it would be hard to argue that it was only cosmetic..

If it is a mental disorder... then it is one we cannot even accurately diagnosis, let alone cure..

So what do we do with people who have nonviolent mental disorders we cannot fix???


We humor them..


Think autism...or anything else similar..

If the kid wants to pretend to be a ninja turtle, we buy him a mask and foam nunchucks...

We do not beat them over the head with the fact they will never be a ninja turtle..

That is what I see with all the trans bashing.. the equivalent of people picking on autistic children.

a reply to: Boadicea

I think a “brass tax” point is this...


Do you think there is a reasonable “cure” for being trans???

Is there a way to make them all stop wanting to swap sexes??

Or I guess to be more specific, stop the ones who are legit and want it enough for surgeries and such..

a reply to: Boadicea

Let me ask you a question Bo. It’s an honest question and isn’t tricky or rhetorical.

What if all the process of transition from evaluation, counseling, hormone supplements to actual gender reassignment surgery ... what if all this is simply an elective.

Let’s take away the rationale of gender dysphoria or even the reality of differing gender identities.

Let’s say that any person desires to change their body. Why can’t they do it? Why do you or I or the government have anything to say about it?

a reply to: Gryphon66

But what about with children????

I think everyone can agree adults can do what they want, but that is not the OP..


The OP is minors...



I’m all for trans rights, and against trans bashing...


But how can we justify making permanent changes in a child without anything resembling an objective test to confirm the diagnosis????

If they wanna start giving kids sex changes and hormones or whatever.. I want to know an F’n cause... I want a brain scan, DNA markers... flipping something objective..

I saw one stat that said 50% of people diagnosed as trans are wrong....well I want better than that for surgeries and hormones...

a reply to: JustJohnny

What do you imagine the age ranges for irreversible surgeries are in the transition process?

What age are we talking about in your mind?

Further, are you pondering sex reassignment? Is someone you know and love considering it? Then why are you concerned?

I have pulled and painstakingly listed all the medical resources on the transition process at any age from puberty to middle age dozens of times. It’s wasted effort.

The process of evaluation for trans kids, trans adults, gender dysphoria and any related matter is not something that you go into the clinic for one afternoon. It is a YEARS LONG PROCESS. Evaluation of trans identity or gender dysphoria or both is a medical process involving teams of professionals.

You and others here act like 7 year olds are being toted into the clinic one afternoon by their psychotic moms and leave a different sex than when they came in.

Look it up. Google details of medical transition sex reassignment, etc.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

Let me ask you a question Bo. It’s an honest question and isn’t tricky or rhetorical.

Understood

What if all the process of transition from evaluation, counseling, hormone supplements to actual gender reassignment surgery ... what if all this is simply an elective.

Let’s take away the rationale of gender dysphoria or even the reality of differing gender identities.

Let’s say that any person desires to change their body. Why can’t they do it? Why do you or I or the government have anything to say about it?

Good question. Thank you. This is the crux of the matter.

The simple answer is that adults should have the absolute freedom to change their body if they so desire. I would say that our only interest as a society, and therefore government's only interest, would be to ensure that the patient is fully informed of the good, the bad and the ugly prior to consent, and that those performing such procedures are properly trained and qualified to do so.

I would also insist, however, that such changes should not be misrepresented for any purposes -- i.e., someone who has undergone gender reassignment surgery should not represent themselves as actually being the re-assigned gender -- nor should they be mis-recorded for official purposes, such as the census, crime, identification, etc. And definitely not in single-sex spaces established for the needs and protections of women.

I know transgender persons are very averse to being "othered," and I understand why. But the reality is that they are "others" by their own initiative, and have to understand and accept that they cannot un-define and re-define others in the process of expressing and identifying themselves. If/where established sex-based rights and protections don't work for them, they need to establish their own and not undermine or trample those sex-based rights for others.

In my opinion, though, most of the current Trans Activism is driven by the most petty, shallow and superficial motives. I think if given free rein, it would eventually burn itself out because it is impractical and unrealistic, therefore unsustainable. But as a result, I also believe society as a whole would put a lot less value and importance on gender norms and stereotypes. There were once practical and productive reasons for what are now norms and stereotypes, but technology has changed the need for many of these.... society just hasn't caught up yet!

a reply to: JustJohnny

I see your points, and agree to a certain degree -- but not completely.

I liken it to my senile grandmother. When she called me by my cousin's name, I didn't argue or try to correct her; I just asked for my "aunt" instead of my "mom." Why further confuse and upset her by trying to correct her? No good reason I could think of...

And where that is possible without hurting anyone, that's fine. The problem is that the Agenda -- and by that I mean the organized demand for legal and regulatory action -- does hurt people, both trans people and everyone else.

For example, after we gave the kid the mask and foam nunchuks, we wouldn't send him out to fight gang violence, right?

There will always be those who just want to point fingers and talk trash because it makes them feel good about themselves for some reason... I don't quite get that, but it is what it is. And there always will be those people.

As long as they have no power over anyone else, and we can all walk away and do our thing, it's all good.

originally posted by: JustJohnny
a reply to: Boadicea

I think a “brass tax” point is this...

Do you think there is a reasonable “cure” for being trans???

Short Answer: For many, yes. For a very few, no.

Long Answer: Not all transgenderism (for want of a better word) is equal. I believe that true gender dysphoria can have mental, emotional, physical and/or spiritual roots. We know that for some it is related to their homosexuality. For others it's all about their heterosexuality. For still others it's about identifying with opposite gender stereotypes and norms and not feeling like they "fit in" with the norms and stereotypes of their born gender. For many it's a coping defense for a traumatic event, or chronic abuse at the hands of someone they should have been able to trust and be safe with.

Final Answer: In the big picture, we are all a unique combination of male and female factors -- chromosomes, hormones, experiences, etc. We are all also products of both nature and nurture. In my ideal world, everyone could accept and be at peace with their bodies while not letting their sex dictate their spirit. So there would be no desire and therefore no need for puberty blockers or cross-hormones or risky surgeries.

But in the real world, people get lots of risky cosmetic procedures for lots of silly reasons... usually vanity. So I'm not even kidding myself! Folks have a right to do what they will to and for their bodies.

originally posted by: JustJohnny
a reply to: tanstaafl

Oh yes they would..

Oh no they wouldn't...

See how that works?

Those cases who were legitimate

There are no legitimate cases for children to engage in a medical practice that merely feeds into delusions.

and who will continue to live as the other sex,

They would be free to 'live their lives as the other sex' as much as they wanted.

The difference is they wouldn't be able to have irreversible medical procedures that will basically destroy their sexual identity forever.

They would benefit dramatically from transitioning as early as possible.

That is the argument, but it is a lie.

How do I know? Because it is physically impossible for a man to become a woman or vice vers.

and thus would be denied healthcare that was in their best interest ..

In whose opinion? Only those who have a vested interest in the destruction of the traditional family unit.

The reality is, the vast majority of kids who actually start entertaining the idea that they are trans do so only because they were essentially coached to think that it is somehow 'normal'.

No, the only sane, rational answer to this is to wait and let these kids make up their own mind once they achieve the age of majority.

We don't let kids buy cigarettes before they turn 18, why should we let them cut off their wankers on a fad/fancy/whim?

a reply to: Gryphon66

What are your feelings on female genital mutilation?

Some might consider that health care.

a reply to: Gryphon66

If a treatment is available, and administered according to the best standards medical science has, that is up to the individual. I’m certainly in favor of giving kids as much control of their lives as is possible including the ability to resist their parents’ overreaching actions, whatever those might be.

You understand that people used to think this way about things like lobotomies and thalidomide too.

There is such a thing as the medical establishment and so-called experts going too far.

Do you recall ADD/ADHD and how suddenly every other kid was drugged out of his gourd? It's supposed to be the diagnosis of last resort, but instead, it's the first thing everyone thinks of and tries to diagnose because it has pills to fix it and other things take messy, expensive solutions.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

What are your feelings on female genital mutilation?

Some might consider that health care.

Sounds uncomfortable. Much like sex reassignment surgery, I cannot imagine wanting that prodcedure.

However, I don't have to have either procedure. I am not going to tell another person that what they want or need is wrong because of how I feel as long as what they want or need is harming no one.