The Drake Equation Fallacy

a reply to: Grenade

sigh

no i want YOU to explain EXACTLY what you think is missing

as i said - be VERY precise

a reply to: Grenade

The Drake Equation can handle there being a God who has guided where intelligent life would go in the universe.

If you want the Drake Equation to consider that God built the universe for just us and us alone as the only intelligent life, then set the value of the factor fi to 1/R*.

I personally think the value of fi is greater than just that tiny fraction, but if a person is so inclined to believe that we are alone because God, the Drake Equation can still handle it.


EDIT/CORRECTION: I originally said set the value to 1, but that is not correct. Those values are fractions/percentages, and a value of "1" would be 100%.

originally posted by: Grenade
a reply to: Barcs


Do you even realise how obnoxious, confrontational and arrogant you seem?

It’s really tiresome, I could even agree with some of what you say if it wasn’t put forward with such a negative tone.

I realize how you are trying to paint me over a disagreement based on your false claim about geocentrism. I may be harsh at times, but I'm not the one making false claims or trying to paint science as speculation, I'm the one correcting false claims and using facts to do such. I know this makes me public enemy #1 for creationists, but I don't really care. And calling me arrogant is silly, I just follow facts and research. I'm not going around claiming flat earth is a scientific theory or misrepresenting a probability theory.

And believe me, I've tried the nice guy attitude on here, it gets you nowhere, because people that deny facts are still going to lie and arrogantly deny all the facts even if you give it to them with a spoonful of sugar and a cherry on top. Yes I laugh at dishonest people. It's more fun than getting angry.

originally posted by: Grenade
I'd wager a large bet i have a deeper understanding of Physics than both you or Barcs.

I'll believe it when I see it. You were arguing vehemently before that astronomy was science and that made geocentrism a scientific theory. It sounds like astrophysics isn't really your thing if you are denying the work of Nasa but I'd love to hear your "deeper" understanding.

originally posted by: cooperton
When did I deny empirical evidence (Science)? Point out specific examples where I deny observable fact

You denied that influenza virus evolves and blindly rejected 5 different scientific research papers on the evolution of influenza and that was just a few days ago. How can you even deny that at this point? The funniest thing about that is that you selectively cherry pick which science to accept and which to reject. Anything that comes up with epigentics is cold hard absolute truth, but random mutations leading to trait changes is all fake. Without dishonest double standards, you'd have no standards at all.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: ignorant_ape

thats you - you are an anti science idiot

and thats the polite version

Your type of mentality is deteriorating the unity of humankind. Stop being a twat.

How Jesus like of you.

a reply to: cooperton

and your cultist brand of willfull ignorance is attempting to drag us back to the stone age

a reply to: cooperton

bollox - you have never discussed bilogy - you simply regurgitate the idiocy you scrape from creationist websites

hey - lets get back to the " core topic " - why should any paramater of the drake equation be set to zero ?

thats the entire point of the thing - if you cannot set zero then life is an overwelming probability

it does not attempt to give a quantative number - just that its possible // probable

so - why zero - any one got a coherent answer ???????????????/

originally posted by: Barcs
"Your type of mentality is deteriorating the unity of humankind. Stop being a twat."

How Jesus like of you.

Jesus called people out when they were being misleading and cruel. You guys don't realize how deadly your philosophy is. You say there is no greater intelligence, and at times, if it fits your argument, you argue that the universe has no intelligence. That alone is absurd. It also has very disheartening implications. You are also trying to spread your belief that we are ancestors of mutant monkeys and that all life is an accident. If this is true then we return back to eternal nothingness one day along with the rest of humankind, never again to exist in a meaningless apathetic universe. It's a hopeless mentality that leads to the notion that nothing matters.

originally posted by: cooperton
Jesus called people out when they were being misleading and cruel.

Oh yeah? Can you give an example of Jesus calling somebody a slang for vagina?

You guys don't realize how deadly your philosophy is.

Skepticism is not deadly, embracing religious delusions over scientific facts has been PROVEN to be, aka 9/11.

You say there is no greater intelligence, and at times, if it fits your argument, you argue that the universe has no intelligence. That alone is absurd.

Why is it absurd to be skeptical of a "greater intelligence" when there is no data or evidence supporting such, just ignorant creationist assumptions like, "only intelligence can produce intelligence" which is demonstrably wrong because it invokes special pleading. Also I don't state there is no greater intelligence or no intelligence at all. I'm just not convinced that there IS a greater intelligence because the line of evidence is extremely weak, whereas with other claims like evolution, one can reasonably assess the massive amount of research and evidence.

It also has very disheartening implications

That is irrelevant to whether the claim is true. It feels good to believe a comforting explanation over an inconvenient truth.

You are also trying to spread your belief that we are ancestors of mutant monkeys and that all life is an accident

STRAW MAN.

Evolution is not a belief, silly. We've been over this.

If this is true then we return back to eternal nothingness one day along with the rest of humankind

Eternal nothingness? Please by all means prove that exists. This is false dilemma fallacy.

never again to exist in a meaningless apathetic universe. It's a hopeless mentality that leads to the notion that nothing matters.

False. Why do you think secular humanism and Buddhism exist? They provide meaning to a godless existence. I know you have been programmed and brainwashed hardcore to think that not believing YOUR version of god automatically makes nothing matter, but that's just a baseless projection.

a reply to: cooperton

i find it hysterically amusing that an ATS member - who CLAIMS they are hear to educate us in biology comes up with this utter bollox :

You are also trying to spread your belief that we are ancestors of mutant monkeys

with creationst retard are you getting spoon fed by ????????????

originally posted by: Barcs

Evolution is not a belief

Your bias is strong. Show me an organism that has changed into another organism in a lab setting. There have been millions of generations of lab organisms that should have resulted in some sort of change by now if evolution were true. But fruit flies remain fruit flies, mice remain mice, you simply believe it can go beyond that even though there is no data to support the possibility.

Why is it absurd to be skeptical of a "greater intelligence" when there is no data or evidence supporting such

All physical laws act according to precise mathematical equations. It is by definition intelligent. Laws don't come to be without an intelligent force bringing them into existence. The constitution was drafted by intelligent men, not monkeys slapping on type-writers. No matter how much you divert and attack me personally, you can't change that straight-forward logic.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Barcs
"Your type of mentality is deteriorating the unity of humankind. Stop being a twat."

How Jesus like of you.

Jesus called people out when they were being misleading and cruel. You guys don't realize how deadly your philosophy is. You say there is no greater intelligence, and at times, if it fits your argument, you argue that the universe has no intelligence. That alone is absurd. It also has very disheartening implications. You are also trying to spread your belief that we are ancestors of mutant monkeys and that all life is an accident. If this is true then we return back to eternal nothingness one day along with the rest of humankind, never again to exist in a meaningless apathetic universe. It's a hopeless mentality that leads to the notion that nothing matters.

misrepresenting the absence of god (or similar cosmic force designated as architect and CEO of our world) as the absence of truth, hope and love is also a cruel trick to perform and profoundly misleading on top of that.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

misrepresenting the absence of god (or similar cosmic force designated as architect and CEO of our world) as the absence of truth, hope and love is also a cruel trick to perform and profoundly misleading on top of that.

If there is no higher purpose, we will return to dirt and our existence will disappear forever without a trace. Textbook meaninglessness. No matter how good or bad you may be it doesn't matter, because all return to the same nothingness after their life, because there is no higher force to orchestrate a recollection of their consciousness.

Don't get me wrong, there certainly can be love within the atheist mindset. You can still choose to love which is good: pursuing love for the sake of love, rather than doing it because you know reward is inevitable. But if all returns to naught then it doesn't matter. At all. You personally may ignore this nihilist conclusion that results from atheism, but many people come to that logical conclusion when they are convinced of the precepts of atheism.

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: cooperton

The question you should be asking is:

Which is more likely?

1. A super complex intelligent conscious being that just happens to exist, with no cause, from nothing, it's just there by default (wow so lucky)

2. The universe came from something else not as complex.

I go with #2.

The question isn't whether intelligent beings can design intelligent systems, the question is whether an intelligent being can just exist by default from nothing and NOT come from intelligence, which breaks your rule and thus renders your argument fallacious due to special pleading.

Animals don't create things, humans do, and intelligence is the only reason for it.

What evidence is there for your argument of creations, complex or not, from pure random chance? Nothing.

Why would you believe random chance could create anything complex, when all of the evidence shows it is the complete opposite?

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm

misrepresenting the absence of god (or similar cosmic force designated as architect and CEO of our world) as the absence of truth, hope and love is also a cruel trick to perform and profoundly misleading on top of that.

If there is no higher purpose, we will return to dirt and our existence will disappear forever without a trace. Textbook meaninglessness. No matter how good or bad you may be it doesn't matter, because all return to the same nothingness after their life, because there is no higher force to orchestrate a recollection of their consciousness.

Don't get me wrong, there certainly can be love within the atheist mindset. You can still choose to love which is good: pursuing love for the sake of love, rather than doing it because you know reward is inevitable. But if all returns to naught then it doesn't matter. At all. You personally may ignore this nihilist conclusion that results from atheism, but many people come to that logical conclusion when they are convinced of the precepts of atheism.

Humans invented language, art, philosophy, meaning. No creature ever asked the questions we do, and we ask because the ego craves validation and fears irrelevance. "We dont matter" is an opinion you arrived at because you have decided certain factors have zero value and other factors deserve all the value. This is your personal scale of merit and only you can be accountable for that scale. It doesn't hold water outside of your mind anymore than a child's finger painting. But where you see meaningless chaos, I see a van Gogh masterpiece that belongs on the fridge for all to marvel at. It is fragile and temporary and worth less than your average cup of coffee, it will never be acknowledged in history books or museums, but why should that mean it doesn't matter? It was beautiful for a while, why isn't that enough for you? Why do you need more? Because of YOUR precepts and your evaluation of what life without a god is worth? Has it occurred to you that you may have trapped yourself in a false dichotomy between theism and nihilism?

originally posted by: Barcs
I'll believe it when I see it.

Believing rockets fly into 'orbit', without seeing one ever do it, is an exception to the rule?!!


I'll believe it when I see a rocket fly up towards 'orbit', from Earth, until it is a mere speck in the sky....


And what about you, then?

If rockets do NOT fly into 'orbit', which explains - by logic, and reasoning - why we've never SEEN it happen, ever.... every lie built upon this, the greatest of all lies, would immediately collapse, like a house of cards.

Truth is eternal, lies are not.

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: Barcs
I'll believe it when I see it.

Believing rockets fly into 'orbit', without seeing one ever do it, is an exception to the rule?!!


I'll believe it when I see a rocket fly up towards 'orbit', from Earth, until it is a mere speck in the sky....


And what about you, then?

Then by now you must believe. Of course I dont like to use the word "believe" because it implies a certain choice in interpretation. Hard to "interpret" facts when there is a observable sequence of causality and inductive reasoning that can be tested small scale and expounded to reflect the macrocosm.

originally posted by: turbonium1
If rockets do NOT fly into 'orbit', which explains - by logic, and reasoning - why we've never SEEN it happen, ever.... every lie built upon this, the greatest of all lies, would immediately collapse, like a house of cards.

Truth is eternal, lies are not.

Do you not have access to YouTube? Still new to the internet? Because videos are all over the place. We have SEEN it happen multiple times. Of course it is very expensive so there aren't literally millions of examples but certainly enough to illustrate the facts.

originally posted by: turbonium1

I'll believe it when I see a rocket fly up towards 'orbit', from Earth, until it is a mere speck in the sky....

The direction can't be just "up", or they would never get into orbit. It would need to fly up a little, but more parallel to the Earth's surface, since an orbit is parallel to the surface.

A rocket that just goes up would fall back to Earth.