The Drake Equation Fallacy

a reply to: Barcs

I had this girlfriend bout 20 yrs ago. She couldn't cope
with my smart ass either. I'd say something just to piss
her off then turn and walk away. But sometimes she'd run
up behind me and grab a pinch of my hair. In public at a
friends house, didn't matter, even the movies. Her thing
was to back peddle turn to run screaming " Don't you hit me!"
Only girlfriend I ever had that I'm not still friends with.
She also used to twist words and say I was I lying!

She was a psycho!

originally posted by: Grenade
Actually, i can confirm these equations and calculations predict the movements of bodies within our solar system very well.

You're saying there's no proof? What about when i can use these equations and a little bit of trigonometry to predict the moons phases accurately for the next 1000 years and beyond from any point on Earth?

Please show me an alternative explanation which describes our observations so accurately. Not backing it up with loose quotes from scripture, actually provide a testable hypothesis.

The movements already exist, we've long known about them, and have long been able to predict them over centuries of time. The only thing we don't know is WHY, WHO, and/or WHAT created those eternal movements above Earth. You cannot explain it with 'gravity', which doesn't even exist, as a force, or whatever else you think it is supposed to be. We only know what we can observe, and measure, to understand it is NOT random, which suggests an intelligence created it all, and that would suggest God, or a supreme being, created it all. We cannot prove it, either way, but the evidence certainly points to intelligent creation.

originally posted by: Grenade
I agree there's no direct proof of Gravity being a force. You could argue dark matter is it's opposite force however again this is just hypothetical. There is however plenty of indirect evidence for its existence such as astronomical observations of the planets and stars. Also galaxies are moving away from each other, this can be shown by red-shift which is a solid indicator the universe is expanding. A lack of knowledge of physics does not prove the Earth is flat. The problem with flat earth is, well all the evidence to the contrary.

The observations of stars show that every single star above Earth is the VERY SAME, in the SAME positions above Earth, since day one, and ever since then, which is thousands of years, at least.

If Earth was a ball, speeding through an endless universe, and all the stars were trillions of miles away from Earth, all of them also speeding through an endless universe, it makes NO sense that all the stars would remain exactly the same, in the same positions above Earth, since day one, and since then, and forever and ever, in the future

originally posted by: Grenade
Gravity is currently best explained as the curvature of space/time. Not as a force as you insinuate.

I'm not the one 'insinuating' that 'gravity' is a force, your side is. Or most of your side is, anyway. 'Gravity' is supposed to be a force within Earth, holding all objects, the oceans, and even the entire atmosphere, to the Earth, as it speeds through an endless universe. Do you not claim this, or do you? If not, then what ARE you claiming here? You believe objects are 'held' to Earth, do you not? If so, then what do you believe 'holds' objects to Earth? A force, or something else?

originally posted by: Grenade
What in your opinion holds the planets in predictable motion? Again these equations perfectly describe movements of objects within the solar system to a high degree of accuracy. Can your flat Earth model do this? If so, please post this evidence with experimental results.

Like today i can predict the sun will set in London at 15:52. How can i check, go outside, watch the sun fall over the horizon and check my watch.

The moon will rise at 56 degrees (NE) at 19:20. Currently we can see 87.8% of its face. It will be 373,964 km from the center of the Earth at that point.

Again, the movements already existed, before we predicted them over centuries. This has nothing to do with how, or why, or what, or who, made such movements exist.


They try to explain it with 'gravity', and it fails to work. But they refuse to consider alternative explanations, such as an intelligent design, because that would admit God or a supreme being created it, and they will NEVER admit to that, as we know very well. 'Science' wants to be God, and tell us it's completely random, as 'science' is God of all knowledge, and we are only ignorant mortals, who bow to the Gods of all knowledge, our great 'scientists'!!

Nobody dares question the Gods of all knowledge, and those who try, are mocked and scorned as fools, who know nothing of 'science'!


When you see airplanes fly over 6 hours, and remain at cruising altitude throughout, and fly LEVEL throughout, they should be over 1600 feet higher than 6 hours earlier, if Earth was a ball, and had 'curvature'.

Planes measure level flight the same way we measure level ANYWHERE on Earth, or above Earth, on the 60th floor of a building. Level cannot mean something OTHER than level, no matter what they wish to believe, no matter what excuses they come up with.

If Earth was a sphere, planes would need to calculate for curvature on flights, because they would be flying over a ball, a totally round surface, which cannot be flown 'level' for a 6 hour flight, obviously!

originally posted by: oldcarpy
Please jump off a tall building and tell me that gravity is not real.

You think 'gravity' is proven by falling through air?? Some 'force' is 'pulling' us down to Earth, because we fall through air?

Birds and insects fly above Earth, they don't get 'pulled' down to Earth. They face no RESISTANCE from below, either.

A great force that cannot 'pull down' birds and insects, is NO force at all!

Same

Old

Crap...

a reply to: turbonium1

Clearly trying to debunk your claims with hard science isn't going to work. I have a fear a lot of this scientific research and experimentation is too complicated for you to understand properly and so you find comfort in a more easily digestible thesis.

I will however not pander to it.

I agree, science just tries to explain laws and forces which are inherent within nature. I also agree with you about intelligence design being evident everywhere.

What i don't agree with is your research or experiment into this flat Earth. It's claiming to be a more plausible hypothesis than science, simply to enforce your religious beliefs, with no real calculation or logic applied to the process other than simplistic thought experiments and flimsy evidence that can easily be debunked.

How can planes fly level at altitude for 6 hours, and not adjust for 1600 feet of curvature, on your round Earth?

Think of a plane like it was a 200 foot long spirit level, raised into the air.

When you measure for level, in air, or on ground, or water, it is the same thing.

What happens when you move this 200 foot level along a path? You measure level again, and again, along the path. You cannot measure more than the 200 feet length of the level. You must keep measuring level as you go along the path, right?

Same as a plane can only measure level over it's length, along its flight path, too.

At no point can a plane measure beyond where it physically is in air, it must continually measure level as it flies along the way.


'Curvature', even if existed, would not be measurable by planes of only a few hundred feet in length, and they don't need to, since 'curvature' doesn't exist.

a reply to: turbonium1

Planes don't use a spirit level they use an altimeter which measures barometric pressure. Some use radar to measure altitude.

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: oldcarpy
Please jump off a tall building and tell me that gravity is not real.

You think 'gravity' is proven by falling through air?? Some 'force' is 'pulling' us down to Earth, because we fall through air?

Birds and insects fly above Earth, they don't get 'pulled' down to Earth. They face no RESISTANCE from below, either.

A great force that cannot 'pull down' birds and insects, is NO force at all!

Good grief.
The motto of this site is "Deny Ignorance" - not "Flaunt Ignorance".

a reply to: midicon

You can also use a level to snap a much longer horizontal line.
Do this on a large enough scale and the line should gradually
gain altitude as it moves away from the curvature of the earth
passed the sphere and out into space.

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: turbonium1

Planes don't use a spirit level they use an altimeter which measures barometric pressure. Some use radar to measure altitude.

Yes, I'm aware of that already. The comparison I was making between a plane and a '200 foot spirit level', is that both of them would have to continually measure level, along their paths, simply because they can only measure over their lengths.

This was to point out that 'curvature', even if it existed, would be entirely irrelevant during plane flights, when they measure for level flight and altitude, along the way.

originally posted by: oldcarpy

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: oldcarpy
Please jump off a tall building and tell me that gravity is not real.

You think 'gravity' is proven by falling through air?? Some 'force' is 'pulling' us down to Earth, because we fall through air?

Birds and insects fly above Earth, they don't get 'pulled' down to Earth. They face no RESISTANCE from below, either.

A great force that cannot 'pull down' birds and insects, is NO force at all!

Good grief.
The motto of this site is "Deny Ignorance" - not "Flaunt Ignorance".

Then why are you ignoring the points I made, if you don't want to 'flaunt ignorance'?

Stick to the issue, and act like a mature adult, because posts like this are a waste of everyone's time.

I noted that birds and insects face no resistance at all, when opposing your supposed force within Earth, that somehow is powerful enough to hold all objects to Earth, hold and curve oceans around a ball-shaped Earth, and even hold the entire atmosphere exactly in place, while spinning 1000 mph, and zipping around the Sun at 6700 mph, and all of it speeds around the galaxy at 490,000 mph.

But somehow, it cannot even offer resistance against a tiny mosquito, freely flying above the Earth!

That alone proves there is no force within Earth, pulling/holding us down to the surface. The only way such a force would exist, is by offering resistance to opposing forces. Same way a magnet does. In fact, 'gravity' should act the same as a magnet does, except for all objects, instead of only materials with magnetic properties, such as metals.

The most fundamental claim of gravity is that it holds/pulls all objects to Earth's surface, which means 'gravity' would have to be an actual force, like magnetic force, or so forth. As a directional force, like a magnet, gravity would offer resistance to opposing forces, which go in the opposite direction, AWAY from the Earth's surface.

Since opposing forces, going away from Earth's surface, face absolutely no resistance from any sort of force within Earth, the most fundamental claim about gravity fails to hold up. You cannot have it both ways, a force that pulls all objects down to Earth, and a force which does not resist objects going AWAY from Earth. There is simply no excuse for it, 'gravity' does not exist within Earth, and that's a fact proven by offering no resistance to opposing forces.


Ignore it all you want, but this is the reality.

Dr Frank Drake: "If there is intelligent life out there in the cosmos, then where is everyone?"

Ignoring this particular rock on the ass of the milky way galaxy or whatever they call it. Because of this noise right here. This back and forth happening all around the world. Intelligent life knows drama and how to evade it. We don't.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I tend to question intelligent life on this planet when turbo posts

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: midicon

You can also use a level to snap a much longer horizontal line.
Do this on a large enough scale and the line should gradually
gain altitude as it moves away from the curvature of the earth
passed the sphere and out into space.

Sorry to disagree with you on this, because we do agree on most everything else.

The Earth is not a ball, and does not have 'curvature'. If you look at my explanations above, you should realize planes fly level throughout, or nearly so, at a fixed altitude. A 6 hour flight would cover about 1600 feet of curvature, if it existed, and it does not.

How do they try to explain this? With their favorite magical force called 'gravity', of course. The non-existent force which solves all their problems, and never needs to be proven, because gravity itself has never been proven, except as an imaginary force within Earth. Apparently, gravity has the amazing ability to make planes measure level, yet not be level at all, for gravity makes planes measure level 'to Earth's curvature'. How can an imaginary force within Earth make planes measure level, in air, as something OTHER than level, is still a great mystery. But somehow, they are very certain that is happens, anyway, so just accept that as true, and move along, folks.

In truth, level is measured in air, or ground, as level, and nothing else. Level is not 'a slight curve'. A curve, no matter how slight, is NOT level.

Planes prove, beyond any doubt, that the Earth is flat. Their very instruments prove that, each and every day.

It's gotten so desperate, my friend, that they are actually trying to say level is NOT level, for airplanes which measure level all the time. A force within Earth makes plane instruments read 'level', but it is not 'level' at all, 'gravity' makes it look that way! And this is a perfect example of how 'science' has been compromised, and corrupted, all these years.

The lie about Earth being round, was created to remove God as the creator of Earth, and all life on Earth. The Bible described God's creation of the Earth, but the most important thing mentioned, which God knew, because it is mentioned throughout the Bible - is God's creation of the firmament above Earth.

As we know from the Bible..

Genesis 1:6-8

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."

The waters above the firmament are seen every single day, but somehow, nobody seems to realize the sky is blue, because water appears blue in sunlight, on Earth, and ABOVE Earth, too.

If you believe what the Bible says is true, then you must believe the blue above Earth is water within the firmament, as the Bible states. You would also believe in the firmament, of course, which is mentioned repeatedly in the Bible, which indicates how important it is for us to know about it's existence.


When you say the Earth is a ball, has 'curvature', you are - sorry to say - going against the word of God, the most important, most crucial, words of God, if you believe in the Bible, as you claim.

I'm not trying to disparage you, or anyone else, for their beliefs, only to let you know what the Bible says on this, so you can make a more informed decision, and position, afterwards.

When someone asks what proves God created Earth, simply say there's more proof of God creating Earth, than out of random actions over an unknown time period, since random acts on Earth create nothing of order, structure, form, in any way at all, for thousands of years, and nobody but an idiot would claim random acts are capable of creating Earth, all life on Earth, and creating everything else in the 'universe'!

But they are certainly not idiots, so why do they claim such things? To remove God as our creator, and become Gods themselves, in our eyes.

You know the Bible says that there is a firmament above Earth, which holds waters, same as water on the Earth, and you know that water appears blue in sunlight, and you know the sky is blue in sunlight...

The Bible said the firmament exists, that it holds waters above the Earth, while we know water appears blue in sunlight, and we see how it is blue above Earth, which all matches up to the Bible's account.

To remove God, they had to begin by claiming Earth is a ball, flying randomly through an endless universe. All of the rest depends on this great lie being accepted as true. Everything would fall apart if it was realized to be a lie, one by one.

Claiming Earth is a ball, should be a thoroughly proven, demonstrable, measurable claim, considering the great implications, utmost importance, it would have, if true.

Nobody has ever proven the Earth is a ball, to this very day. And never will, because it's a lie.


So many people are fooled into their lies, after all this time, they don't think for themselves anymore, they are TOLD what to think, what to believe is true, and not true. Nobody even realizes all of their great rockets they claim go into 'space', are never seen by anyone on Earth, actually GOING towards 'space', ever. We see rockets go up at first, but they all veer off sideways, or nearly so, and then vanish from sight, over the ocean. That's it.

We must still be incapable of filming a rocket flying past 50,000 feet or so, since it's pretty hard to think of a reason why they haven't filmed it from Earth yet.... Or told us where to see it fly past 50,000 feet, so we'd be able to go there, with our telescopes, or rent one, so we could be the very first people in history to see, and film, a rocket flying past 50,000 feet!!


What is it going to take before people use their brains, their eyes, their senses, to understand how ridiculous it is that we've never seen a rocket actually fly past 50,000 feet, or more, where these rockets are all supposed to do, in the first place? The whole claim is that rockets fly into orbit, into space, and the entire claim rests on PROVING that rockets fly into space, and they have NEVER proven it, by filming it from Earth, by telling us where to see rockets fly up towards space, which they'd already have done, but they can't.

If the firmament exists, it makes sense that they've never proven rockets go into space, never shot film from Earth showing a rocket flying up, towards orbit,and never told us where to SEE a rocket fly up towards orbit.

When we see the blue above Earth, the Bible tells us why it is blue, because it is water, held within the firmament above Earth. They have simply told us that rockets go into space, and shown rockets flying up, at first, and then veer off, out of sight, so many times, it's ridiculous.

a reply to: turbonium1

And this is what we are supposed to teach in our schools?

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: TzarChasm

I tend to question intelligent life on this planet when turbo posts

Posts like yours leave no question about it!

a reply to: turbonium1

The Earth is not a ball, and does not have 'curvature'. If you look at my explanations above, you should realize planes fly level throughout, or nearly so, at a fixed altitude. A 6 hour flight would cover about 1600 feet of curvature, if it existed, and it does not.

You must always pay attention to the way I word my posts.

Do this on a large enough scale and the line should gradually

" Should "imply's if the earth is round. My post is neutral.

And don't feed the trolls!

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: turbonium1

And this is what we are supposed to teach in our schools?

There are many, many things which we have been taught in schools, over the last century, or more, which are absolute lies, falsehoods, and half-truths. The educational systems are controlled like the media is, and it cannot be changed, just like we cannot change the mass media, unless everyone learns the truth on their own, and comes together, and changes the system. That's a pipe dream, sadly.

What would happen if a teacher started telling students that the Earth is not round, it is a lie, and presents evidence of the Earth being flat? What if an astronomy professor told students that rockets have never been seen or filmed from Earth going into space?

We know what would happen, don't we? That's how much it is controlled, because if any teacher taught about 9/11 being a controlled demolition, or that JFK was not murdered by Oswald, or that we never landed on the moon, this teacher would be fired, and never teach again. And is that the kind of world you really want to live in? Not me, that's for sure.


Taking it to the other extreme viewpoint is not the answer, obviously. One must take what is right, not take what is wrong, from all sides, and go from there..

originally posted by: carsforkids
a reply to: turbonium1

The Earth is not a ball, and does not have 'curvature'. If you look at my explanations above, you should realize planes fly level throughout, or nearly so, at a fixed altitude. A 6 hour flight would cover about 1600 feet of curvature, if it existed, and it does not.

You must always pay attention to the way I word my posts.

Do this on a large enough scale and the line should gradually

" Should "imply's if the earth is round. My post is neutral.

It read that way to me, but if you're neutral, it's good to know where you stand on it, anyway.


This goes far beyond the shape of Earth, that's the main point I was getting at.