California's progressive tax is a massive failure!

a reply to: Ansuzrune

They already sit at that apex. See, the problem is this. We can understand your points and concerns. Would a population without a means of defense be bad in our nation in front of our absolutely corrupt govt? Sure. We get that. Are massive influx of immigrants a burden upon the economy? Sure. We get that too. Is the Democratic Party just as corrupt as the republicans, and pushing hard to legislate profits (like republican representatives do as well) against our wishes? Absolutely. We get that as well.

There is legitimacy to the arguments of the citizens on the right. We recognize that, and don’t pretend it doesn’t exist, and don’t act like you’re idiots for the opinions you hold. But by and large the right wingers on here act as if any ideas opposed to theirs are idiotic. As if there’s no other way to view things. As if their opinions aren’t just as manipulated by establishment candidates and media as everyone else’s. As if there is no legitimacy to our criticisms of the “capitalist” system working in the us and as if the wealthy elite don’t use our current capitalist system to manipulate us all, just as you claim they’d use the socialist system.

It’s disengenuous or its superiority complex. As if other people can’t read the many varied sources and come to as good conclusions as yours or better. Did you guys all get straight a’s in school? Are you all the heads of your peers or jobs? All valedictorians here? 99’s on the asvab? If not, then you are just as bad as putting together information and drawing conclusions as the rest of us. Honestly, the majority of you come across more like the cool asshole kids who just got together to make fun of the fat kids or torment the disabled kids. It’s not productive. We come here to debate because through debate we grow and develop our ideas and philosophies. When you guys treat people like # for disagreeing with you, it just closes off all those paths of possibility that should absolutely be explored.

a reply to: pexx421

It’s disengenuous or its superiority complex. As if other people can’t read the many varied sources and come to as good conclusions as yours or better. Did you guys all get straight a’s in school?

Yes

Are you all the heads of your peers or jobs? All valedictorians here?

Yes/No

99’s on the asvab?

You do know that the asvab is used to make sure people that join the military aren't mentally retarded. To use that as some kind gauge of intelligence or high dialogue on ATS is as funny as it gets.

If not, then you are just as bad as putting together information and drawing conclusions as the rest of us. Honestly, the majority of you come across more like the cool asshole kids who just got together to make fun of the fat kids or torment the disabled kids. It’s not productive.

You know why I like ATS? There are some brilliant minds on here that are free to speak in an anonymous way. Even the humor on here is at another level for those smart enough to get it.

a reply to: pexx421

Honestly, the majority of you come across more like the cool asshole kids who just got together to make fun of the fat kids or torment the disabled kids. It’s not productive.

If you are saying that about partisans from both sides, you would be right. Both sides act exactly like that, at least the vocal ones online. In the real world though, we get along just fine. The Internet world is a tiny subset and not representative of anything but the crowd on the Internet.

I've been a Democrat and I've been a Republican and found both lacking and that neither side is right to be honest. The truth lies somewhere in the middle where it has always resided. A good system includes elements of capitalism and socialism.

You are convinced you are right, I'm convinced I'm right as are others convinced they are right. Solutions only come through compromise.

When California became a single party state where the rural residents are dictated to by the urban crowd, the balance shifted too far one way leaving the system in danger of tipping over.

The only way a top heavy system like California can survive financially is to hit the working poor through property taxes, sales taxes and gas taxes, not to mention the taxes and fees included in utility bills. A Left leaning system can't survive by just hitting the rich. The working poor do far better in rural, fly over states, where they can even own homes and maybe a few acres rather than hole up in a one room apartment in a cockroach infested building, struggling just to keep the electricity on. I've lived in both worlds and the quality of life goes up as you get further away from large cities an inside a more conservative community. In the progressive cities, only the haves enjoy a good life. Do you see the irony in that?

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: pexx421

It’s disengenuous or its superiority complex. As if other people can’t read the many varied sources and come to as good conclusions as yours or better. Did you guys all get straight a’s in school?

Yes

Are you all the heads of your peers or jobs? All valedictorians here?

Yes/No

99’s on the asvab?

You do know that the asvab is used to make sure people that join the military aren't mentally retarded. To use that as some kind gauge of intelligence or high dialogue on ATS is as funny as it gets.

If not, then you are just as bad as putting together information and drawing conclusions as the rest of us. Honestly, the majority of you come across more like the cool asshole kids who just got together to make fun of the fat kids or torment the disabled kids. It’s not productive.

You know why I like ATS? There are some brilliant minds on here that are free to speak in an anonymous way. Even the humor on here is at another level for those smart enough to get it.

Missing the point. The spirit of discussion is betrayed by patronizing, condescending, and antagonizing folks on here trying to engage in honest discussion. My point, quite clearly, is that people come here to discuss, share their ideas, and hear yours, so being a dick to them because they haven’t gotten to where you might be is about as helpful as leaving a # bomb on someone’s porch. And many of them are kids, or new to the venue and the debate game. Don’t be a dick.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: pexx421

Honestly, the majority of you come across more like the cool asshole kids who just got together to make fun of the fat kids or torment the disabled kids. It’s not productive.

If you are saying that about partisans from both sides, you would be right. Both sides act exactly like that, at least the vocal ones online. In the real world though, we get along just fine. The Internet world is a tiny subset and not representative of anything but the crowd on the Internet.

I've been a Democrat and I've been a Republican and found both lacking and that neither side is right to be honest. The truth lies somewhere in the middle where it has always resided. A good system includes elements of capitalism and socialism.

You are convinced you are right, I'm convinced I'm right as are others convinced they are right. Solutions only come through compromise.

When California became a single party state where the rural residents are dictated to by the urban crowd, the balance shifted too far one way leaving the system in danger of tipping over.

The only way a top heavy system like California can survive financially is to hit the working poor through property taxes, sales taxes and gas taxes, not to mention the taxes and fees included in utility bills. A Left leaning system can't survive by just hitting the rich. The working poor do far better in rural, fly over states, where they can even own homes and maybe a few acres rather than hole up in a one room apartment in a cockroach infested building, struggling just to keep the electricity on. I've lived in both worlds and the quality of life goes up as you get further away from large cities an inside a more conservative community. In the progressive cities, only the haves enjoy a good life. Do you see the irony in that?

I agree with most of what you said. Except for your conclusions as to progressive cities. Most of our urban population centers have a huge disparity. But plenty of our rural places are conservative, and there are plenty of them around that are 2 horse Towns with no economy, a Walmart, nothing but a few minimum wage jobs, and a big meth problem. We have a serious national problem, and to blame it on progressive policies is, I think, scapegoating. Unless you just equate progressive with neoliberal/neocon policies, in which case we are on the same page.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: JAGStorm

Socialism is why blue states are the richest states.

Because Socialism/Communism takes away from the poor/middle class.

a reply to: pexx421
What was said was an idea? Stated as fact that rich states are blue due to socialism. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. People like that need a bit harsher approach. I am not a bit sorry for what I said. Our country and its constitution are in peril from people like that.

a reply to: pexx421

Don’t be a dick.

I found that the vast majority of people on here aren't.
I also think people need to grow a thicker skin

a reply to: pexx421

Would you argue that California is not under single party control and has been for a long time now? That being the case, who should Californians look to, to assign blame? The people in power, or the people who have no power?

Yes rural area's in California are better, but then that makes my prior point for me. Large cities are not friendly to the working person and never have been. The huge income disparity has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with out of control social spending. They can't even take care of the infrastructure.

Ever lived in a rural area in a fly over state? A million dollar home in the Los Angeles suburbs, would cost about $350,000 in say Idaho and come with a couple of acres of land. You can live very well on $15 and hour there, while you would have problems even having a place to sleep in the crazy expensive cities in California. I know, I've lived in both.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: pexx421

Would you argue that California is not under single party control and has been for a long time now? That being the case, who should Californians look to, to assign blame? The people in power, or the people who have no power?

Yes rural area's in California are better, but then that makes my prior point for me. Large cities are not friendly to the working person and never have been. The huge income disparity has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with out of control social spending. They can't even take care of the infrastructure.

Ever lived in a rural area in a fly over state? A million dollar home in the Los Angeles suburbs, would cost about $350,000 in say Idaho and come with a couple of acres of land. You can live very well on $15 and hour there, while you would have problems even having a place to sleep in the crazy expensive cities in California. I know, I've lived in both.

I don’t think it’s out of control social spending at all. I think it’s out of control exploitation. How much money does Goldman Sachs make off food stamp cards?? How much does Glaxo and Bayer make off subsidized healthcare? Often the social programs are co-opted by predatory corporations to siphon massive money from taxpayers, far more than required to do the service.

As to whether Cali is single party dominated, sure. But I said progressive. And if you’re referring to the Democratic Party, they are not liberal or progressive, they, like the Republican Party, are reactionary, corrupt, and opportunistic. Don’t insult progressives with association with the corporatist, neoliberal democratic establishment and we won’t insult you by association with the corporatist, neoliberal Republican Party. I expect the vast majority of us have far more in common than we do with either party. To be clear, the majority of liberal folk I know detest the Democratic Party almost as much as the Republican Party.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: pexx421

Would you argue that California is not under single party control and has been for a long time now? That being the case, who should Californians look to, to assign blame? The people in power, or the people who have no power?

Yes rural area's in California are better, but then that makes my prior point for me. Large cities are not friendly to the working person and never have been. The huge income disparity has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with out of control social spending. They can't even take care of the infrastructure.

Ever lived in a rural area in a fly over state? A million dollar home in the Los Angeles suburbs, would cost about $350,000 in say Idaho and come with a couple of acres of land. You can live very well on $15 and hour there, while you would have problems even having a place to sleep in the crazy expensive cities in California. I know, I've lived in both.

We can also look at other places to compare. Louisiana is red, has very little social spending. And yet standard of living there is pretty dismal. I’ll take a look, but I expect Vermont has pretty good social spending, and moderate standard of living. Hawaii has free healthcare, and I expect the disparity to be high there due to the indigenous poverty, but then we also have Georgia where social spending had been pretty strong, and Atlanta is a pretty great place to live. And then there’s Phoenix, which is largely conservative, but very good wages and low cost of living. So it’s not as cut and dry as that.

I could as easily point to the whole Deep South, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, all very red, and among the worst education, standard of living, wages etc.

a reply to: pexx421

You make too many assumptions. I think I mentioned I'm neither a Republican or Democrat and that is true. I'm actually pretty Left leaning on social issues.

We are talking about progressive taxation here though, which is anything but progressive and now we've come full circle, so I'll leave it there. Thanks for the conversation Pexx421.

Look. Let's just admit who is the problem and be done with this petty bickering. There are forces at the top of the power structure of the Earth trying to jockey into a position where they can control everybody and reduce the population so that less people will be easier to manage. Whether they be called the New World Order or the Illuminati or what have you, it doesn't matter. Those are the ones pulling eveybody's strings. Corporations, Leaders, Politicians, Republicans, Democrats, etc. It doesn't matter to them who they use, because they control everyone in those positions. At least the positions big enough to affect any change.

Why else do you think a 16 ounce package of smoked sausage cost $2.50 last year and this year it costs $2.99 and the size is down to 13 ounces? They are messing with the public and it is for a specific reason, you can count on that.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Most of the wealthy people I know have experts do their taxes and use tax loopholes to pay around 10 to 15 percent. They are leaving to keep the money they made and continue to pay as little as possible that's it.

Population and basic cost of living in California is astronomical compared to Illinois so any comparison between the 2 seems disingenuous.
You can rent a plush house in a nice neighborhood in Illinois for $700/m, the same in California would run around $2600.

5th largest economy in the world. If California wasn't propping up the flyover, welfare riddled red states just imagine how great this country would be. Too bad it's full of dip# racist hillbillies who vote against their best interests because of their idiotic fear of non-existent communism.

And here’s my recent thoughts on it. Due to stagnant, poverty wages, and to ineffective social supports, and a lack of middle class jobs, we have a massive portion of our population unemployed. That’s a massive loss of economic growth, and gdp. It’s a whole huge group of people being a drain that could be an addition. And to think of all the musks or Einstein’s or Tesla’s that could change the world, but instead languish in poverty and addiction due to lack of opportunity. We are doing ourselves a massive disservice.

Think of it this way. All profit taken by owners rather than lifting up workers is inefficiency of economy. It’s people drowning in debt, unable to pay their bills, live productive lives. And this margin of profit denied the people and monopolized by execs, admin, shareholders, has only accelerated over time rather than being fairly distributed as profit skyrockets while wages remain stagnant. It’s less taxes we can collect from middle class Americans, while being largely dodged by corporations and the wealthy elite. It’s less products being afforded as the majority’s disposable income diminishes and more money goes to monopolistic utilities and services, and interest and elevated banking fees.

originally posted by: Terra Serranum
5th largest economy in the world. If California wasn't propping up the flyover, welfare riddled red states just imagine how great this country would be. Too bad it's full of dip# racist hillbillies who vote against their best interests because of their idiotic fear of non-existent communism.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

You cant use that as a measure. You have to look at state gdp per capita. California is up there, but not the highest in the US.

The reasons progressive style tax policies fail is because there are places companies can move that allow sweat shops and some even literal slave labor. Yay everybody, cheer, it's something to celebrate!!! *rolls eyed*

Is like no one gives a # that we're competing with literal slavery and sweat shops. As long as capitalism wins it doesn't matter how or why it does it. Go team!!!

Eventually we can all be sweat shop workers and if we're really lucky we can gratuate to full blown slavery. Let's all cheer the degredation of worker's rights by cheering on the ability of the rich to move wherever they can exploit things to their benefit. Eventually we can all graduate into third world # holes.

The reason such tax systems fail is they aren't in a closed system. They can only succeed in either nations that are one hundred percent self reliant with zero dependance on trade with other economies, OR a one world economy where the rules are the same as and enforced in every nation.

As long as greater success can be achieved people will strive for it, at the same time, those seeking success are prone to exploiting any route available to multiply their success if available. Any exploitation allowed and accepted by society as a whole will be taken if allowed. So yes, the rich can go wherever they can better exploit the populace, that's only a good thing if you want an exploited populace.

a reply to: Puppylove

That’s because here we prioritize the right to maximize profit over what’s good for society. But to be clear, I don’t think anyone voter wise supports outsourcing, shipping jobs overseas, or mass immigration. But our “representatives” are not responsive to the will of the people.

Further, the legislation created in board rooms across the us are responsible for creating a policy where such activities are encouraged. The irs could absolutely penalize countries using sweat shop and slave labor through taxing the difference between our labor costs and theirs, combined with price fixing their goods at mid range us market prices, and use that money to fund our social programs. This would keep our markets creating and incentivize manufacturing growth here. But instead we’ve financialized and deindustrialized our own economy, and moved to an import based goods market with their blessing. Because our economy is leveraged to do one thing, and that’s to extract all surplus productivity and profit from the working class. And our banks are the most flagrant offenders, especially if you listen to mike Hudson’s description where he talks about working for the us banks in their openly expressed goals of extracting every bit of economic profit from the South American nations other than bare necessity subsistence. And they absolutely want to do that here as well.

Well yeah. Rich people are scumbags and rather than do their part to help the economy, they care more about getting obscenely high bonuses and salaries at the expense of others. # the rich, they deserve to be taxed higher.