Freemasonry and sun worshipping.

Originally posted by akilles
"Firstly, Freemasonry did not start in 1717. The Grand Lodge of England was founded on that date on June 24th, but Freemasonry was around long before."

Dude, it is so blatantly obvious I don't know why you bothered to mention this fact. Why not mention that in the next 300 years that followed NO STONE MASONS or construction workers of ANY type have unionized themselves and come up with silly rituals of their own.

Umm I'm no math major (one class short of a minor)....but if you add your 300yrs on to the 1717 date don't you get 2017? Are you saying you can predict the future?

It doesn't really matter, because almost *all* trades, construction or not, have unions. How can you say that they have not unionized? Do they have rituals? I'm not sure. But if they did, would it matter anyway?

My math and english skills are actually quite articulate, it is only when they are interpreted by a lesser mind that confusion arises, as it has for some on this thread.

Must be some of that *new* math....

Golfie, what he will be meaning is inside 300 years since 1717.

Golfie are you suggesting major occult organisations are created/designed by accident?.

Originally posted by ThePunisher
Golfie, what he will be meaning is inside 300 years since 1717.

Golfie are you suggesting major occult organisations are created/designed by accident?.

Maybe I misunderstood what his intent was *shrug* but this is how I took it....

What I was questioning is that he had stated (or at least eluded to) that no construction trades had unionized in the 300yrs since 1717. We all know that's not true. But hypothetically even if they hadn't until today (which isn't 2017) how can we say that it wouldn't happen before then?!?

And if the "International Brotherhood of Grocery Baggers" (fictitious union) has some initiation ritual, does it really matter?

Originally posted by ThePunisher

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by ThePunisher
senrak, thats the science of the zodiac.

WHAT is the "science of the zodiac" ? Everything I posted or just part of it?

I've read quite a bit about the zodiac, but didn't realize I was referencing it...

Well that would mean i was using broad terms, doesnt the zodiac have to do with the movement of the sun?.

[edit on 12-3-2005 by ThePunisher]

Perhaps. But what does that have to do with MY post...and drunken sun-worship, while eating styrofoam communion cookies? Huh?

Originally posted by akilles
My math and english skills are actually quite articulate, it is only when they are interpreted by a lesser mind that confusion arises, as it has for some on this thread. I stated Christmas occurred exactly half a year after the founding of Freemasonry, not that the founding happened half year into the year,

(am I crosseyed)...

Errrrr..... no it didn't. Christmas day fell 185 days after the founding of the Grand Lodge of England. 359 minus 174 equals 185. Double that and you get 370. You're still out by 5 days for the year and 11 for Christmas.

Or do you work to some weird calendar that nobody has ever heard of?

[edit on 13-3-2005 by Leveller]

akilles,

I singled you out in the last post and you've posted since then. Are you going to reply with some intelligent answer (well...how 'bout just an answer)? ...or do you prefer to go on to other things since you have no response like you usually do????? Huh? I want to know about those millions of Masonic "squares" "Rectangles" and "Circles" in the thousands of city and town street plans across the U.S.A. I want to know why a supposed Star in DC is MORE evil and MORE Masonic than THOSE.

Any comment? Or is it pretty plain to you that the design of DC was to be aesthetically pleasing and unique....not to mention damned-hard to drive around in....

I want to know why you think the House of the Temple is the "home of elite Freemasons" There's nothing "elite" about me and I send my Scottish Rite Dues to the House of the Temple EVERY Year. I visit there often too. Just a few cranky ol' guys with funny hats giving tours of the place and a couple of administrative folks running around. They check in at 8 and check out at 5. Sure sounds like a world conspiracy to me....but I want to know from YOU what it's REALLY all about. You're such an expert on Freemasonry and all. I mean, geez...I've only been a member for a mere 15 years or so. ...what would I possibly know.

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by ThePunisher

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by ThePunisher
senrak, thats the science of the zodiac.

WHAT is the "science of the zodiac" ? Everything I posted or just part of it?

I've read quite a bit about the zodiac, but didn't realize I was referencing it...

Well that would mean i was using broad terms, doesnt the zodiac have to do with the movement of the sun?.

[edit on 12-3-2005 by ThePunisher]

Perhaps. But what does that have to do with MY post...and drunken sun-worship, while eating styrofoam communion cookies? Huh?

in your post you was talking about the sun etc, the trashy confusing stuff you put in was meant to mislead people.

Freemasonry wasent formed in 1717. It simply changed its name to Freemasonry.

Masonry derived from the Knights Templar after they were slaughtered off in the 1300's and the remaining Templars sailed to Scotland hence the scottish rite of Freemasonry

Originally posted by ThePunisher
in your post you was talking about the sun etc, the trashy confusing stuff you put in was meant to mislead people.

No. Learn to read. I SAID that many people called the celebration of the Holy Eucharist (Communion) a derivative of sun-worship because the Host is round. I didn't mention the zodiac...you jumped in and said "that's the science of the zodiac" My question was WHAT is the "science of the zodiac?" People mistakenly saying that Holy Communion is sun-worship?

Originally posted by Novusordo
Freemasonry wasent formed in 1717. It simply changed its name to Freemasonry.

What was it's name before? And who changed it? How do you KNOW this (not speculation...there's been plenty of that) Provide facts.

Masonry derived from the Knights Templar after they were slaughtered off in the 1300's and the remaining Templars sailed to Scotland hence the scottish rite of Freemasonry

Again, facts please. That story has been around for YEARS but no one (not even MASONS) have PROVEN it....yet you state it as fact. Provide some evidence. Personally I LIKE the Templar theory, but there are several other good ones out there. Point is NO ONE knows where Freemasonry originated. Not even the so-called "elite" who apparently live in some secret chambers at the House of the Temple 13 blocks from the White House...right akilles???

Well there are alot of similarities between the Templars and Masonry today and the survivors of the Templar order could easily of ressurected the order when they fled to Scotland.

Originally posted by senrak
Perhaps. But what does that have to do with MY post...and drunken sun-worship, while eating styrofoam communion cookies? Huh?

i answered.

Originally posted by thepunisher
in your post you was talking about the sun etc, the trashy confusing stuff you put in was meant to mislead people.

Originally posted by Novusordo
Well there are alot of similarities between the Templars and Masonry today and the survivors of the Templar order could easily of ressurected the order when they fled to Scotland.

Could have...I suppose. But there's not proof they DID. I asked for facts (it was rhetorical because no one HAS any) There are a lot of similarities between my house and my next-door-neighbor's house. But there's no connection between the two. They were built by two different builders.

Originally posted by ThePunisher
i answered.

Oh yes, of course. How silly of me. You said "that's the nature of the zodiac" That cleared it ALL up.

Thanks for playing, punishment...

You know what, my bad for thinking Masonry started on June 25th.

It WAS Three days after the Sun was at its Most High, a perfect day for a 'union' to drop ALL Operative aspects, and convert to 'speculative Masonry'.

How about I put it in astronomical terms for you, Leveller, June 24th is the day the sun begins to descend, the descent ends on December 21st, but He does not Rise again for 3 days.

So how many days from Dec. 21 to Jan 1? And how many days from Jan 1 to June 24th?

OH MY GOD! You don't say, well... That must be a coincidence.

So why mark the day the Sun's descent begins, I can't believe you thought I was in the wrong, or that there was 'nothing' to this blatant and obvious Negative Sun symbolism.

[edit on 13-3-2005 by akilles]

Umm correct me if I'm wrong....but the summer and winter solstices do not always fall on the same date correct?

Are you saying it would not be possible to use a date for symbolism?

Because some years the actual event occurs half a day or more, later?

That's a weak distraction.

What doesn't change is the period of time between equinoxes,
what doesn't change is the period of time between the Sun reaching its lowest/highest point, and reverting from the direction it is heading.

That is what is captured in the symbolism. Feeling it?

Don't read too much into it and thus try to put words into my mouth. Anyone that knows me, knows I can do that just fine on my own.

You have been using specific dates as they refer to the solstices. My point was that altho they do occur around the same date every year, it is not always exactly on the same date. Nothing more, Nothing less.

I even stated that if I'm wrong correct me.

As for dates being symbolic, of course they can be. Christmas, New Years, Labor Day, Anniversaries,....the list goes on.

Originally posted by akilles
Are you saying it would not be possible to use a date for symbolism?

Because some years the actual event occurs half a day or more, later?

That's a weak distraction.

Oh please. You spent ages trying to prove it as an exact match and now you're burbling on about how it's relevant because it isn't exact.
On top of that you even admit getting your dates wrong.

I'd call that a weak distraction in itself.

Originally posted by Novusordo
Well there are alot of similarities between the Templars and Masonry today and the survivors of the Templar order could easily of ressurected the order when they fled to Scotland.

This is a discussion that has been held on ATS literally dozens of times before. There are even Freemasons who go for the Templar link and it is thought that the whole connection started with a claim made by a Freemason. But there is absolutely no proof whatsoever that the two Orders were ever linked.
The link below explains this:

www.masonicinfo.com...


You cite similarities (although you don't give any evidence), but the dissimilarities are striking and are what pushes the Templar link into the realms of fantasy.
Literally thousands of scholars (among them many Freemasons) have tried to prove a link, but every single one has failed to do so.

Perhaps the most glaring piece of evidence is that the KT were an ultra orthodox Catholic Order. Freemasonry is totally at the other end of the spectrum in allowing and recognising all faiths. The Knights Templar fought to promote Catholisism with the blessing of Rome. History shows us that they were none too tolerant of other religions. Conspiracy theorists like to point to gnostisism in the Order, but unfortunately there is absolutely no evidence to show that this existed and all the facts point directly to the contrary. KTs were about as Catholic as anyone could be back then. More than likely, a Freemason would have been branded as a heretic by a KT and would have been seen as an enemy to his faith.

When we take the romantic (but conspiratorial) view of the KT as dashing warrior knights defending a Christian way of life against hordes of heathens, underdogs in a fight for justice, it's sometimes hard not to want there to be a link. But history doesn't bear this out. The Knights Templar were nothing like the romantic image that has been bestowed on them over the centuries. Look at what we do know to be true about the Order and you can see that really, there is no proof and the evidence that a lot of people claim proves a link doesn't even exist.