Amazon Synod in Vatican, will the Catholic Church ever change its Corruption?

As the Synod of the Amazon is going on in the Vatican, the world gets the impression that the reformer pope Francis and his close aides try everything to liberalize the world's oldest and biggest religious institution, that of the Roman Catholic Church. And that could be pretty close to the truth. We may get finally married priests and female deacons, as a step in a long waiting list of reforms. Too long waiting anyway. Because at the time we reach the end of the list, many of us won't be around, let alone in active age to fulfill in practice what they worked for their entire lives. Apparently, the timing is of no concern of the hierarchy that "holds the finger of God" and believes they are for eternity if not on this world then on the other...I do not share their optimism having in mind the criticism Jesus did against the pharisees..

Only, is that enough for the 1 billion common Catholics? The fight with the ultraconservative fanatics, a couple of cardinals and bishops who should long be retired and not taking important positions in the Vatican, is it what really matters for the normal people in the Church? It certainly matters for the bishops, but when will the 5,000 anointed ones start caring for their flocks?

At the same time, besides the sexual crisis (that however severe, takes only limited percent of priests and faithful abused), there is a much bigger and ongoing crisis that concerns 95% of all faithful if not more. In a secular society it would be called simply "Corruption". In the Church the things are not quite the same, because the bishops are entitled to decide how to operate with the property and the money of their dioceses. Great responsibility indeed! At the time of austerity, unemployment in the millions, young people who literally don't know where to start with their lives and end up on the bottom of society after having university degrees many of them, at the same time we see the clergy lacks Nothing, from luxury cars to large compounds enough not for 1-2 but for 15-20 of them, with assured everyday restaurant-like cooking with the necessary staff, often of nuns to take care of them. Of course they do not pay anything for that, their salary goes for holier purposes...Are they paid 10$ an hour? Or their salary ranges within thousands a month and above 50,000 a year? I don't even know. They don't say it. With yearly vacations and monthly or bi-monthly conferences to Rome and elsewhere. Who pays for their tickets and accommodation?

And I do not mean just the rich dioceses in the West. I mean also Eastern European former communist countries (that I could visit), where the clergy lives in striking contrast to the impoverished faithful Catholics. I mean countries like Indonesia and Philippines, where in one diocese all priests resigned in a protest of a corrupt bishop to be ousted. You know, the clergy did so much...and the faithful should be happy they are still admitted to the Sacraments despite their multiple sins...Shame! If the luxury cars are parked next to the faithful's own cars (that might not be that luxurious anyway), as it is in America, is one thing. When they are parked in front of old people who can hardly buy a ticket for the bus to attend the holy mass, is a completely another story.

Unless the Vatican starts sweeping reforms, including public disgrace of bishops and sending them in one-room apartments or monasteries for the rest of their lives, and taking Real care of the poor next door who starve physically and also socially, not draining all resources for overseas immigrants only, until that happens visibly and sensibly in the common parishes around the world, we will reach nowhere. It will not be a big surprise if the dark predictions of Fatima, Malachi and other prophecies fulfill.

I'd wish the pope to have the strength to go forward! Until now, what I see is dragging feet of bishops and priests who despite all the good words said keep in their inaction and empty theology inapplicable for the daily lives of their sheep. They simply do not Want to give anything to the poor flock, or let be precise, to give only crumbles, if they are some kind of medieval rulers who are convinced of their own great piety... If there is predestination, that is the surest way for it to be fulfilled.


Revelation 3:15-17
15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither [a]cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—

a reply to: 2012newstart

At the same time, besides the sexual crisis (that however severe, takes only limited percent of priests and faithful abused),

You are very wrong here.

There are the abusers.

There are those that hid the crimes against children.

There are the rest of them ... who see no evil, hear no evil ... and say nothing.

In all of their minds there is just the Church and She must be protected at all costs no matter the damage to societies.

These are not good people!

P

a reply to: pheonix358

I do not say there are not...
Of course the sexual abuses are on top of all that and they should be dealt without any tolerance and cover up!


I say that for the vast majority of the common Catholics, the economic abuse, the corruption, the money that are given to God and taken by the priest, is the issue they get when they have to put checks every Sunday, and not vice versus for their large families created because of following Vatican policy of no contraception... and walking out of the church they see the priest's luxurious car many times more expensive than their own, and can hardly walk around the vast compound of buildings a "home" for several mortal men... And that even more striking is when that happens in a poor country, a third world country, but it is bad even in the richest America...

And let me be clear. The reformer pope at 82 to turn 83 in December is pretty much the last chance of the Catholic Church to make it right! After Francis, there will be schism and not one but two or more churches that already take shape. Indeed some prelates hope that somehow they will survive it, i.e. their riches will survive it. But...they will never know in advance what is coming. A shaking up will change everything, not only who is the next pope. Because the people cannot bear the double faced hierarchy any longer! And I am talking of people who go to church not only on Sunday but also on weekdays. I am not talking of people who are outside the Catholic Church and only want to destroy it. The Church's biggest persecution is within the sinful evil clergy, ref. what pope Benedict said on Fatima anniversary, and St Paul VI called it the smoke of Satan within the Vatican.

The Synod now sitting as we speak, is good to take care of the Climate Change and Indigenous people. good to allow married priests that will make less likely future abuses of children. But all of that is too little, too late. The pope lost 6 years in good wishes. Will he do any meaningful reform in the 7th? Or will remain as the last pope who tried and failed.

originally posted by: pheonix358
a reply to: 2012newstart

At the same time, besides the sexual crisis (that however severe, takes only limited percent of priests and faithful abused),

You are very wrong here.

There are the abusers.

There are those that hid the crimes against children.

There are the rest of them ... who see no evil, hear no evil ... and say nothing.

In all of their minds there is just the Church and She must be protected at all costs no matter the damage to societies.

These are not good people!

P

I was going to add but then i realised - in a nutshell this was simply spot on, true to the point and adding anything else was pointless.

A leopard can't change it's spots.

Voting rights for the 1.2 bln Catholics should be introduced without any further delay! Including voting who should be their parish priest and their bishop, out of more than one worthy and holy candidate. Including how the money are spent in the parish and the diocese. The community principles are well defined in the Acts of the Apostles. And the bishops are not humanly capable or competent to deal with all that, even if they are elected and worthy. They should deal with the spirit only, and let the lay people manage the finances under public scrutiny. Enough of bishops who pose as saints and educated, and who live luxurious life more than state officials! Is that in the Gospel???

Let say something positive as well. The German bishops' conference is way ahead in the reforms, for example it will seek approval for its coming Synod from influential Lay catholic organization.

The Vatican Must understand that it will either make it or break it this year/Christmas! Once the Catholic Church is split into two or three, there will be no more way back. The canonical law is not created by Jesus Christ anyway! Pope Francis said that. And about his successor, if the law of conclave allows for any man who is capable to be bhsop (even if he is not a bishop at the time of conclave) to be elected pope, why we see only cardinals being elected? Is it a secluded club, a politburo of new kind that Lenin could envy? Let the respected cardinals elect as successor of pope Francis (when he resigns most likely) a honorable holy man who is NOT among their elite club, rather one among the people!

a reply to: 2012newstart

Thats all very obtainable but equally as unobtainable due to simply human nature, thoroughly corrupted at that, to date......undeniably!

Whats my concern is the mention of a join with islam - the infamous Chrislam, what next for the catholic church? and the further implementation of your suggestions above.
I see a NWO being started right before our very eyes driven by the pope himself????? Once the amalgamation of these two faiths is cemented just imagine the infiltration of these souls living amounst us.

Trippy indeed, people are ignorant at best.

a reply to: 2012newstart

I was raised with dual citizenship so to speak- Catholic and Southern Baptist. Every week Mass (Augustinian) with my father's family AND Southern Baptist church with my mother's family. What always amazed me is the similarities rather than the differences.

The higher ups live a life of privilege while members of their congregations live in abject poverty. There is sexual abuse run rampant (and although we often hear about the children there are also many adults abused as well). There is blatant hypocrisy. There are cover ups galore.

The most amazing thing is that even when some of the dirty secrets escape into public knowledge the majority will stick their heads in the sand as they have been programmed to feel unworthy to question the leadership and "God's Will" or they are made to believe that if they do not forgive they will not be forgiven of their own sins. The proverbial deck is stacked against them as their own beliefs are used against them. Guilt is a powerful tool!

a reply to: 2012newstart

I think it is covered in the Book of Revelations, including the letters to the churches.

The fall of the Catholic Church, I think it has been written.

Thanks for your views!
As of now, the Amazon synod proposes good things, but it avoids talking of the topics mentioned by me.

The fierce opposition of ultraconservatives (several cardinals and their supporters mainly in USA) may lead to a schism as a result of possible decision on female deacons and married priests.

On the other side, the German synod is about to start around Christmas/Advent time, with even more radical agenda than the Amazon synod.

Perhaps, I want to believe, these synods will do something on the above mentioned problems too. I am certain what we write here is being read over there.

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: 2012newstart

I think it is covered in the Book of Revelations, including the letters to the churches.

The fall of the Catholic Church, I think it has been written.

For the good part of the 2000 years after Jesus Christ, the Church has performed unspeakable crimes, including but not limited to: crusades in the Middle East with mass killing of women and children, conquistas in Latin America with forced christianization and public executions by either burning or other torture including for homosexual behavior, the Inquisition in Europe that among many thousands (no one knows the exact numbers) saw some great thinkers burned...

There wasn't repentance. There was just opening a new page.

Indeed, today's pope is different. He apologized to Latin America for past crimes. But he has too strong opposition.

I challenge those bishops who openly oppose the course of reform: do they approve or reject the Inquisition in all of its forms?
Let cardinals Burke, Sarah, Muller, Brandmuller, who lead the revolt against pope Francis, condemn the burning of people, and stop condemning the course on reforms! Or maybe they are as convenient with the Inquisition as their predecessors were?

And let the Vatican finally canonize Galileo and Giordano Bruno among others! Enough of canonizations of holy nuns! Let the example is set for something different! If Galileo and Bruno were listened to, if they were made cardinals at that time (Giordano Bruno was a religious) we would have been centuries ahead in our development and wouldn't have the overpopulation crisis of today (that the Catholic Church is also responsible for), we would have unlimited resources on Moon and Mars to support 10-15 bln or more. And the Earth would be a better place to live in...praising the Lord in a much more authentic way than the Middle ages.

The question ultimately reaches to who will lead the Catholic Church after pope Francis, would his successor backtrack on reforms as the abovementioned cardinals hope, or would he do something more than just good wishes. The many newly appointed cardinals from the peripheries could make a different conclave. The perspective of a well known cardinal to be the next pope (like the secretary of state Parolin) although it would guarantee the current course of reform, leaves the question open how fast that reform would be done. Because for 6 years we haven't seen much done, we have seen much talking. I suggest, the cardinals break the taboo and elect a young one (50+) who would be zealous enough to build up and deliver on all good promises of pope Francis and beyond. If there isn't such among the cardinals, they should not be restricted to find the right person among the bishops or even the priests. The canon law allows it and there were precedents in Church history (let alone the cardinalate does not date back to the time of the apostles).

We cannot be satisfied from what we see now, even as a course on reforms. It is too little, too late. If it ultimately fails, either in its extend or in its protracted timing, the Catholic Church fails with it too. St Malachi said it, the last pope.